Narrowing PAF Gap V IAF by 2015

[SQ8]

Before drifting off the topic..
The Atlantique incident did spark off a major battle within the establishment as there were those that wanted to bomb the IAF base in retaliation.. thankfully, saner heads prevailed and an all out war was averted.

And.." As much as India did not want to go to war" ???
the only.. ONLY thing that holds off India going to war is the fear of prevailing, and American pressure.
The fact that a nuclear exchange is all too real in case India gains the upper hand.. and that the Americans cannot risk a Pakistan that does not force a balanced India against China.
Otherwise, India has a lot more hawks than Pakistan has.. and that too in the general public.. that coupled with a national generally egoistic attitude towards outsiders needs bloating points to feed it. A victory in war, a shooting down of a Pakistan military(albiet unarmed) plane.. all are elixir to those hawks.. and the masses.

 

[deckingraj]

My post had nothing to do with Kargil or it's aftermath. Kargil, though localised, was a war. Mumbai fiasco wasn't.
As much as India wanted to go to war, they couldn't.
Remember when UN weapons inspectors resigned after failing to find any WMDs in Iraq? USA still went to war right?
Same in Afghanistan. No evidence, just went in. Why? Because they could do so with all their power.

Probably that's why they are not going to war with Iran, North Korea and other states because other these countries can given them a befitting reply...right genius???? As said war's are not jokes....Even though they are super-power look at the cost they have to pay in Iraq and Afghanistan....Similar fate in Vietnam as well....So saying that because US has military strength and thus they will go at war with other countries at the drop of Hat then you are living in delusion my friend....

In case of India vs Pakistan there isn't so much of a gap. India could have attacked easily if probably they had same power like US. But to be true, they don't.

Gap as in what??? I never said that IA can overwhelm PA in a whisker....However saying that because there is not much Gap(as alleged) that's why IA did not go to war with Pakistan is foolish....Let me put it this way...We have border dispute with China...Now what's your take on why China is not declaring a war on us???? Is it there is not much Gap b/w us or there is something else to it???

The Antlantique incident was shooting down of an unarmed plane. Though deliberate from Indian side, Pakistan couldn't risk lives of thousands for the lives of those brave people lost on that plane.

Exactly....and that is the precise reason i gave that example....Pak not responding militarily to that so called provocation(Pak POV) was the over all cost of war as compared to the level of provocation...no??? Then may i ask why different standards for India viz-a-viz mumbai???

Kargil was a war (Mumbai fiasco had potential but was NOT one), Two IAF planes were shot down. Thousands died.

yeah....

Atlantique incident was very different than Mumbai.

What??? Shooting down a military plane by an adversary right in your own territory(as claimed by Pak) was less provocative then Mumbai where blame can easily be put on non-state actors???? Sir, here a state Air-Force was directly involved....Do you know what are you talking about????

Go read Sonia Gandhi and your politicians views after Mumbai attacks.

I am well aware of Politicians views and actions...Perhaps you want to enlighten yourself...If there is some difficulty understanding the political stand then let me know i can help...

As i said, India would have attacked Pakistan easily had Pakistan been a much weaker state. The interception of IAF jets within Pakistani Airspace, after Mumbai attacks, shows our Bravado forces.

Explained above why i mentioned Atlantique incident....I by no means want to degrade PAF...this would be foolish on my part and i don't want to share ranks with many folks here suffering from delusions.....

Having said it remember that MKI's did end up having incursion in your territory....I would like to understand your definition of interception?? Did PAF engaged those fighters...Afterall it was not a single fighter there but complete sorties of 3 Mirage 2000-H and 2 SU-30 MKI aircrafts and that too ARMED. ....So question should be why PAF did not engage the fighters that were Armed and clearly violated your Air-Space???

A foolish answer would be...they don't have the guts...A sane answer would be to try and keep things calm so that war can be avoided....Now the only thing i am trying to say here is that no war should not be considered as lack of will, capability or capacity to wage a war....Am i clear or still giving you headache's???

You seriously need to update your memory, and level of writing proficiency, which gave me a headache.

Though i try and avoid personal insults yet looks like its you who is suffering from Amnesia and comprehensive skills...let me help here...

You have been mentioning about Sonia Gandhi comments from quite some time... This is what she said
India can give Pakistan a befitting reply: Sonia Gandhi | TopNews

India CAN give pak a befitting reply.....Just look at the date of this news and compare it with Mumbai saga...and also read carefully the bolded part you will get an answer...... CAN yes ...are we planning to do it right now..NO

This is what our PM has said many times...

Manmohan: dialogue is the only option

Remember he was our PM during mumbai saga as well....So not sure which politician you have been following during mumbai...if you have something share or else it is clear you are also one of the victims of Media sensationalism

 

[deckingraj]

Before drifting off the topic..
The Atlantique incident did spark off a major battle within the establishment as there were those that wanted to bomb the IAF base in retaliation.. thankfully, saner heads prevailed and an all out war was averted.

Agreed...this is in sync with what i am trying to say....Not going to war does not mean that military capability is not there....However what i am not getting is why you guys don't want to say that saner heads in India did not let war drums to beat....

And.." As much as India did not want to go to war" ???
the only.. ONLY thing that holds off India going to war is the fear of prevailing, and American pressure.

And may i know the basis of your claims??? Fear of prevailing??? prevailing against whom??? Now i can understand atleast people saying there is not much gap between us but saying that India cannot even prevail against Pak is a bit too much to swallow...

The fact that a nuclear exchange is all too real in case India gains the upper hand.. and that the Americans cannot risk a Pakistan that does not force a balanced India against China.

After nuclear exchange there will not be any India/Pak to do any balancing.....If the world can pressure India to not act the same world can pressure Pak to not go nuclear...Sir, these are all just hypothesis....God forbids another mumbai GOI would be compelled to act and GOP would be compelled to react...

Otherwise, India has a lot more hawks than Pakistan has.. and that too in the general public.. that coupled with a national generally egoistic attitude towards outsiders needs bloating points to feed it. A victory in war, a shooting down of a Pakistan military(albiet unarmed) plane.. all are elixir to those hawks.. and the masses.

Hawks are those who just defy logic and take actions based on emotions and false ego...I am certainly not one of them and hope neither you are...If you read my post i have explained very clearly that the way Pak non-retaliation to Atlantique should not be taken as Pak weakness the same standards should be applied to India...

BY the way how do you know there are more hawks in India then Pak??? Because the way i see few hawks in Pak have caused more wars then more hawks in India... so might be the understanding about hawks present in other side of the border(read pak) is grossly underestimated....

 

[Donatello]

Probably that's why they are not going to war with Iran, North Korea and other states because other these countries can given them a befitting reply...right genius???? As said war's are not jokes....Even though they are super-power look at the cost they have to pay in Iraq and Afghanistan....Similar fate in Vietnam as well....So saying that because US has military strength and thus they will go at war with other countries at the drop of Hat then you are living in delusion my friend....

Umm, if USA or NATO invades or tries to invade North Korea or Iran, they may not face the repercussions themselves but their allies might.

North Korea can attack and destroy Seoul in the South, out, in a matter of minutes.

Iran not having good relations with Mid-East countries, can attack or retaliate against them.

In case of Afghanistan....the only trouble was the refugees in Pakistan and destabilizing neighbors......which we clearly see today in Pakistan. Now you don't want entire Mid-East destabilized because you would have created more problems than solutions.


Anyway, your lack of depth shows how much you really know about wars.


3 Mirage 2000 and 2 Su-30?


Maybe you should search forum because members in the PAF have clarified the planes that were intercepted and locked on...but because of Rules of Engagement you can't engage them, go figure.





and about joining the ranks of people who are delusional, well, you are free to go....no one is forcing you here....i hope so.

 

[Moscow]

a funny part on this military aviation section two threads

please note this is not to flame but just an observation take it lightly

1. SU30MKI is BAD plane because americans said so ... although russians consider it to be a great bird still who russia their opinions are dead they are dead nation , fine - take that idea and be happy

2. another thread UAC russian chief says JF-17 is very good and can outsmart mig29 then yes thats true says who :- why russian chief he is very smart his words have value its tryue only wehen he saus about jf-17 when he says about MKI its false


3. So blindly follow the american words and russian words to your liking then when america criticizes pakistan then CIA , MOSSAD , RAW , KGB all trying to destabilize pakistan


friends this is offtopic i know but this is whats happening here the good posts are getting hidden by these childish behaviour

take it lightly please

 

[TaimiKhan]

a funny part on this military aviation section two threads

please note this is not to flame but just an observation take it lightly

1. SU30MKI is BAD plane because americans said so ... although russians consider it to be a great bird still who russia their opinions are dead they are dead nation , fine - take that idea and be happy

2. another thread UAC russian chief says JF-17 is very good and can outsmart mig29 then yes thats true says who :- why russian chief he is very smart his words have value its tryue only wehen he saus about jf-17 when he says about MKI its false


3. So blindly follow the american words and russian words to your liking then when america criticizes pakistan then CIA , MOSSAD , RAW , KGB all trying to destabilize pakistan


friends this is offtopic i know but this is whats happening here the good posts are getting hidden by these childish behaviour

take it lightly please

You are the first to have said that, no one has said that up til now, it seems you have taken it too lightly.

And talking about planes is different when compared to geopolitical issues, try to figure out the difference before comparing who says about what and what has to be accepted and what not. Facts are there for the accusations we do, as well as Americans have their own facts to say whatever they want and fighter planes are different.

 

[Moscow]

You are the first to have said that, no one has said that up til now, it seems you have taken it too lightly.

And talking about planes is different when compared to geopolitical issues, try to figure out the difference before comparing who says about what and what has to be accepted and what not. Facts are there for the accusations we do, as well as Americans have their own facts to say whatever they want and fighter planes are different.

no sir i have seen this clearly just take this thread as an example its 20 pages some pro members including x-man sir has pointed out and tried to teach us some points but who listens its the same story LCA vs Tejas, man behind machine , 1965 vs 1971 its the same for all threads that spam for then 4 pages

yes talking about planes is different than geo political issues no doubt but then its the same members who speak differently on different forum sections

and as i said its nothing but whats happening recently with threads here

 

[Donatello]

a funny part on this military aviation section two threads

please note this is not to flame but just an observation take it lightly

1. SU30MKI is BAD plane because americans said so ... although russians consider it to be a great bird still who russia their opinions are dead they are dead nation , fine - take that idea and be happy

2. another thread UAC russian chief says JF-17 is very good and can outsmart mig29 then yes thats true says who :- why russian chief he is very smart his words have value its tryue only wehen he saus about jf-17 when he says about MKI its false


3. So blindly follow the american words and russian words to your liking then when america criticizes pakistan then CIA , MOSSAD , RAW , KGB all trying to destabilize pakistan


friends this is offtopic i know but this is whats happening here the good posts are getting hidden by these childish behaviour

take it lightly please

Instead of ranting you could have easily provided a useful post.

Kinda really hard to tell, good from better now...

 

[Storm Force]

Santro

PAF bombing indian air base in retaliation to Atlantic incident.

Wat with a 50 year old Mirage 5

Or a handful of F16s

The point of this thread which i started 20 pages ago was to show case how far behind the PAF have been since the 1990s.

The antlantic incident occured i month after Kargil

If the PAF could not stop THE IAF from bombing the Pakistan Army to submission in Kargil during a full scale war Wat chance a PAF getting even 100 yards accross the indian border.

A BVR equipped fleet of 100+ mig29/mirage2000 wud have had a turkey shoot against PAF bombers like A5 fantans and mirage3/5.

In 1999 PAF was in a very poor state

 

[Donatello]

Santro

PAF bombing indian air base in retaliation to Atlantic incident.

Wat with a 50 year old Mirage 5

Or a handful of F16s

The point of this thread which i started 20 pages ago was to show case how far behind the PAF have been since the 1990s.

The antlantic incident occured i month after Kargil

If the PAF could not stop THE IAF from bombing the Pakistan Army to submission in Kargil during a full scale war Wat chance a PAF getting even 100 yards accross the indian border.

A BVR equipped fleet of 100+ mig29/mirage2000 wud have had a turkey shoot against PAF bombers like A5 fantans and mirage3/5.

In 1999 PAF was in a very poor state

The Kargil war was the biggest blunder done by Musharraf out of his own ego. Perfect example of what not to do.

Pakistan clearly crossed LOC which was UN mandated and under no rule of law it had the right to start the war.

In anycase, PAF made sure IAF stayed near Kargil, which they did.

I've had the pleasure of talking to many PAF pilots and Senior people while playing golf with them. Though they all acknowledge the PAF's BVR gap at that time, it wasn't as easy as you sounded it. A full case war would have been deadly, had PAF been using BVR or NOT.

The shooting down of IAF mig 21 and 27 aircraft showed how high the tensions were, though you can't judge it on the fact that just because PAF didn't support army, so they sucked at countering IAF.

Kinda too vague.

Again, There is not much Pakistan could have done in Kargil as War was not in it's territory and when half the military didn't even know of it.



Go read up the American forces crossing into Pakistani Sovereign territory and Kayani's remarks to Mullen.

You can draw the line....Afghanistan might be US occupied territory but Pakistan ain't. There is not much USA can do directly in Pakistan.



No need to further diverge the topic from IAF vs PAF gap...or BVR gap..and making it into non-sense Kargil discussion thread.

 

[rafay321]

Friends, IAF yacks about surgical strikes and 5000 targets not once but twice but did not go ahead with it.

Isn't that proof enough for all Pakistanis and Indians that PAF is potent enough...??

P.S. Indian can discuss the other dimensions like civilian government, nuclear weapons, threat of a full fledged war and blah. The fact remains that IAF do not cross because of PAF.

 

[Sinnerman108]

The Kargil war was the biggest blunder done by Musharraf out of his own ego. Perfect example of what not to do.

Pakistan clearly crossed LOC which was UN mandated and under no rule of law it had the right to start the war.

In anycase, PAF made sure IAF stayed near Kargil, which they did.

I've had the pleasure of talking to many PAF pilots and Senior people while playing golf with them. Though they all acknowledge the PAF's BVR gap at that time, it wasn't as easy as you sounded it. A full case war would have been deadly, had PAF been using BVR or NOT.

The shooting down of IAF mig 21 and 27 aircraft showed how high the tensions were, though you can't judge it on the fact that just because PAF didn't support army, so they sucked at countering IAF.

Kinda too vague.

Again, There is not much Pakistan could have done in Kargil as War was not in it's territory and when half the military didn't even know of it.



Go read up the American forces crossing into Pakistani Sovereign territory and Kayani's remarks to Mullen.

You can draw the line....Afghanistan might be US occupied territory but Pakistan ain't. There is not much USA can do directly in Pakistan.



No need to further diverge the topic from IAF vs PAF gap...or BVR gap..and making it into non-sense Kargil discussion thread.

Careful what you say, you are making very bold statements which may not be correct; they do not even make sense.

 

[Donatello]

Careful what you say, you are making very bold statements which may not be correct; they do not even make sense.

Bold statements about what?

Musharraf's blunder in Kargil....

Or the exchange of words between Kayani and Mullen?

 

[Sinnerman108]

The Kargil war was the biggest blunder done by Musharraf out of his own ego. Perfect example of what not to do.

Pakistan clearly crossed LOC which was UN mandated and under no rule of law it had the right to start the war.

So you are implying that Pakistan army undertakes projects on a single general's wish (ego) ?

Tomorrow GOC Multan can decide to run over in the desert ?

GROW UP !

In anycase, PAF made sure IAF stayed near Kargil, which they did.

I've had the pleasure of talking to many PAF pilots and Senior people while playing golf with them. Though they all acknowledge the PAF's BVR gap at that time, it wasn't as easy as you sounded it. A full case war would have been deadly, had PAF been using BVR or NOT.

by virtue of BVR. IAF could track Pakistani air craft and fire upon them from WITHIN their air space and kill PAF air craft while still in Pakistani Air space.

Thus PAF had to be careful NOT to go too close to the LOC; thus army was devoid of cover.

The shooting down of IAF mig 21 and 27 aircraft showed how high the tensions were, though you can't judge it on the fact that just because PAF didn't support army, so they sucked at countering IAF.

Were these two air craft killed by PAF ? I think not .... and it is a shame they were not killed by PAF.

Again, There is not much Pakistan could have done in Kargil as War was not in it's territory and when half the military didn't even know of it.

Knowing Musharraf; he had this idea ever since Zia time... see how he was boosted since a brigadier ; then again as DGMO Mushrraf presented this idea again. < --- THESE BOTH ARE FACTS !

and with all honesty it was a brilliant idea; and as far as the army was concerned it was executed very well.

So what went wrong ?

the ARMY did not have any idea of PAF's shortcomings. There was a failure to communicate.
PAF's capability was judged on the face value; and it was PAF which made the blunder of over projecting.
Army's mistake was to believe every thing as it was told.

As a result you may have noticed now Gen Kiyani sitting side by Side with the Air chief in recent exercises.
As a further result you may try to see the exercises themselves were pivoted around ARMY and Airforce coordination and working in tandem.

now think hard enough and you will remember another incidence where the MEN IN BLUE managed to earn disgrace; and try to correlate that with how relations were between Army and Air force.


Now that these problems have been fixed it is by virtue of army's prerogative;

I've had the pleasure of talking to many PAF pilots and Senior people while playing golf with them.

This is the second or the third time in last one month you have tried to justify an ill constructed post with your Golf talent.

Some day I will share more about the PAF & Islamabad golf course....

It is officers like that which eventually make us sorry !

Sigh... one more reason why I favoured Hifazatullah ....

No need to further diverge the topic from IAF vs PAF gap...or BVR gap..and making it into non-sense Kargil discussion thread

you spend the first two paragraph inviting flak; so here it is.

 

[Donatello]

So you are implying that Pakistan army undertakes projects on a single general's wish (ego) ?

Tomorrow GOC Multan can decide to run over in the desert ?

GROW UP !



by virtue of BVR. IAF could track Pakistani air craft and fire upon them from WITHIN their air space and kill PAF air craft while still in Pakistani Air space.

Thus PAF had to be careful NOT to go too close to the LOC; thus army was devoid of cover.



Were these two air craft killed by PAF ? I think not .... and it is a shame they were not killed by PAF.



Knowing Musharraf; he had this idea ever since Zia time... see how he was boosted since a brigadier ; then again as DGMO Mushrraf presented this idea again. < --- THESE BOTH ARE FACTS !

and with all honesty it was a brilliant idea; and as far as the army was concerned it was executed very well.

So what went wrong ?

the ARMY did not have any idea of PAF's shortcomings. There was a failure to communicate.
PAF's capability was judged on the face value; and it was PAF which made the blunder of over projecting.
Army's mistake was to believe every thing as it was told.

As a result you may have noticed now Gen Kiyani sitting side by Side with the Air chief in recent exercises.
As a further result you may try to see the exercises themselves were pivoted around ARMY and Airforce coordination and working in tandem.

now think hard enough and you will remember another incidence where the MEN IN BLUE managed to earn disgrace; and try to correlate that with how relations were between Army and Air force.


Now that these problems have been fixed it is by virtue of army's prerogative;



This is the second or the third time in last one month you have tried to justify an ill constructed post with your Golf talent.

Some day I will share more about the PAF & Islamabad golf course....

It is officers like that which eventually make us sorry !

Sigh... one more reason why I favoured Hifazatullah ....





you spend the first two paragraph inviting flak; so here it is.

Wait, maybe you still didn't get what i said.

Kargil was such a big blunder that it still tarnishes us today. Even if PAF had the best combat edge, for how long would it actually support Army in war that it will ultimately lose? Not because of IAF or IA but because WE clearly Violated the UN mandated LOC and hence were in no right to start a war......and were in a deeper shithole which became more evident as Bill Clinton came by.

It was Musharraf, and because he was the Army chief giving direct orders to attack, you can put blame on him....not on the jawans who had to march into Indian Territory. Actually, please explain under what right did we take over Kargil....and assuming what? No one in the world cared about us at that point. Did it do any good?


About PAF, the job of PAF was to make sure IAF didn't spill beans by attacking areas other than Kargil, like into Pakistani space.....just like we for no reason attacked Indian LOC. They were probably smart enough to know there is no point in going to war which we CANNOT justify.



"......and with all honesty it was a brilliant idea; and as far as the army was concerned it was executed very well....."



look kid, you are just digging yourself deeper here..

Brilliant idea? Executed well? Please tell me whose arse did we end up kicking...Indian or our very own?



All said, Kargil was a failure, and PAF whether limited by BVR or not, did the right thing, Police the borders which they did. After all, it was Pakistan Army who violated LOC and went into Kargil....and this so Mr Musharraf of yours, thinking since days of Gen Zia....and not taking PAF into account for all those years...actually more than a decade.....shows how brilliantly executed it was.



Shame Musharraf kept most people in dark and ended up tarnishing Pakistan.


I guess reality is too hard for you.