Muslim first or Pakistani ?

[Adux]

India is for all Indians, nobody has to prove anything.

All I am saying is the concept of Ummah, if it didnt involve my people or the physical bounderies of my country, I dont really care. If it does. Then I do have a problem. I love the India as it is, anything to change or even say a change, which may lead to a change in its bounderies or its character as a nation for me as a negative development.
If I was a muslim, i wouldnt care for the muslim brotherhood in times of war, with another country of islamic genre. We didnt see islamic brotherhood when iraq attack kuwait..why is that muslims over there have nationalistic fervour, while over here some of em call for the ummah

 

[KashifAsrar]

I remember once I was near Jama Masjid in Delhi, and when Pakistan had won a cricket match against India, people were lighting firecrackers and celebrating. I also remember people having rallies in India and chanting "Pakistan Zindabad".

You are 100% right that when Pakistan used to win against India there was celebration all around Jama Masjid. I saw it myself with my own eyes.
This has changed now. People are more concerned how Indian team is playing. It is just beacuse, I may be wrong in your opinion, after more inclusion of muslim players. No longer it was Kirmani or Azhar. Now there are many. Kaif, Zaheer, Pathan, Jafer, Patel and so on. I clealry see a more participiting and associative response, from same muslim community with Indian team, than it ever was.

And every month you find some Muslim was caught with documents regarding the Army's positions, etc, etc intending to give it to Pakistan.

this is completely wrong dear. Can you give few feeds on this. I can remember only one event, some where last year I think, where one muslim was caught with such crime. Otherwise, I bag an apology, most of the time these are all non-muslims.
Catching every other month a muslim traitor is beyond comprehension and fact. Period.

I have still not forgotten how Imam Bukhari of Jama Masjid openly said that he is an agent for ISI and he dares the Indian govt to try and arrest him. These things happen as well.

These are exactly the kind of leaders that try to hijack the entire community. By the way Imam Bukhari is reported widely in Indian media, where as the fact is that NO ONE listen him and care him just outside OLD DELHI AREA. It is a fact. But media project these craps as mainstream muslim leadership, because of the politcal mileage.

Yes, that is a major part of the problem. But personally i feel that the govt is realising that now and the region is developing now.

Let us see in future how good it is. How it help Kashmiris. I hope the best.

I know of Maulvi's who have supported India to go against Pakistan, and i do know of Mauvi's who have supported Pakistan actually.

Kindly enlighten me and other forum members about this claim with proper links and reference Malay. You are accusing here, so provide facts to support your claim please.

Question to you I will post shortly.
Kashif

 

[Contrarian]

You are 100% right that when Pakistan used to win against India there was celebration all around Jama Masjid. I saw it myself with my own eyes.
This has changed now. People are more concerned how Indian team is playing. It is just beacuse, I may be wrong in your opinion, after more inclusion of muslim players. No longer it was Kirmani or Azhar. Now there are many. Kaif, Zaheer, Pathan, Jafer, Patel and so on. I clealry see a more participiting and associative response, from same muslim community with Indian team, than it ever was.

It is true that there are a lot of Muslim players in the Indian team as well. And i do agree that things have changed for the better, but only slightly so. There is a perceptable change, and yes it is happening, but it is slow. That is what i feel. I do feel that the Muslims are slowly integrating with India, but again, its slow.

But you must understand that this was just an example to show the mentality. It did not just mean for cricket that the muslims here did not care for Indian cricket team because they were mostly hindu's. Its about a mentality, they supported the fact that Pakistan had won. Take it in the larger perspective. You would be mistaken here to think that this was just their bias in cricket.

this is completely wrong dear. Can you give few feeds on this. I can remember only one event, some where last year I think, where one muslim was caught with such crime. Otherwise, I bag an apology, most of the time these are all non-muslims.
Catching every other month a muslim traitor is beyond comprehension and fact. Period.

Saying that once every month was kind of a figure of speech. Its not like that, but you do find that Muslims are the the targeted lot by foreign agencies. Thing is, they get caught and many of the times they are labelled as Pak agents directly, when they are Indian Muslims trained and recruited by Pakistan.

These are exactly the kind of leaders that try to hijack the entire community. By the way Imam Bukhari is reported widely in Indian media, where as the fact is that NO ONE listen him and care him just outside OLD DELHI AREA. It is a fact. But media project these craps as mainstream muslim leadership, because of the politcal mileage.

You do realise that he has considerable pull among Muslims in Old Delhi. I live in Delhi. You do know that the fatwas he issues are still followed by a good portion of the people. He can deal with political parties and issue fatwas to vote for them.

Let us see in future how good it is. How it help Kashmiris. I hope the best.

Yeah, i agree.

Kindly enlighten me and other forum members about this claim with proper links and reference Malay. You are accusing here, so provide facts to support your claim please.

I will do so mate. But not right now, its late. I will do it later.

Question to you I will post shortly.
Kashif

Okay!

 

[Adux]

So only if you have muslim players, they will support india? is that how small they are, is that how much they love the nation?
Personally if I had an all muslim indian cricket team, i will support them. All they need to do is wear the tri-colour and from then they are my team. They can have 3 legs for all i care.
Muslims tend to keep away from mainstream community, for reasons such as like their kids should not get influenced by hindu's or western values etc etc. safegaurding their women from eloping with men of other religion, The cocoon is self-created to a large extent

 

[blitz]

Kashif, you said you had a question for me. Ask me whatever you want.

 

[Awesome]

So only if you have muslim players, they will support india? is that how small they are, is that how much they love the nation?
Personally if I had an all muslim indian cricket team, i will support them. All they need to do is wear the tri-colour and from then they are my team. They can have 3 legs for all i care.
Muslims tend to keep away from mainstream community, for reasons such as like their kids should not get influenced by hindu's or western values etc etc. safegaurding their women from eloping with men of other religion, The cocoon is self-created to a large extent

Most Indian Muslims I know, usually refer to you all "The Hindu People". Which is wrong of course as it subdues your's/their's Indian identity. Identifying people in terms of religion is quite prevalent amongst Indians. I mean normally what I've seen amongst Pakistanis is that they won't bring up the Hindu topic at least in front of a Hindu out of a courtesy. Indian Muslims are not as shy, probably because it is the accepted norm within your countrymen.

Adux, as I said, Indian Muslims are more blunt about this Hindu/Muslim divisions. It's the truth, during the time of Azharuddin, and all the criticism he faced whenever they lost to Pakistan, it was whispered around that the Muslim lost to Pakistan on purpose. Hindu/Muslim divisions in the Indian team has been brought about by both sides not just the Muslims. Paradigms would change as there is actual change. With the inclusion of Muslim players and Muslim Heroes like Irfan Pathan, the Muslims can see that there are no dividing tactics employed by the Hindu side so why should the Muslims not opt for Harmony.

Cricket is a very small example, but one that encompasses the question of the Indian identity.

 

[KashifAsrar]

Here I go, Malay and Blitz:

1. Why justice is always denied to muslim riot victims? We have many such incidents ranging from gujarat, up, bihar, maharshtra, mumbai, delhi, hyderabad and on and on. Take an example of Hashimpura massacre (Meerut, UP) done by the PAC. It is more than 20 years now the case is pending in the court and even a 'SINGLE CHARGESHEET' is not yet filed against any one. What impression does it leave on minority psychology? Does it make them more PATRIOT and FAITHFULL to the country and its governing setup?

2. You people claim that you know muslims that are anti hindu and pro-pakistan. What is thier representation in Indian politics? We know that Hindu Organizations, working for annihilation of Islam and Muslims from atleast this country, have ruled recently and are still in power in many states. Then I ask you a simple question. BY THIS FACT WHICH COMMUNITY PROVE THAT IT IS MORE COMMUNAL AND BIASED: HINDUS OR MUSLIMS?

3. You people have not given me a single instance or link about Muslim Traitors in India or a single Fatwa (verdict) from any MULLAH to side by Pakistan. It is you who claim that this is the case. PROVE YOUR POINT. OR ACCEPT THAT YOU ARE WRONG IN YOUR CLAIM.


4. Why even after 60 years of independence nothing is done to improve the muslim representation in country's polity and economics? Why every attempt to do so, is termed as appeasement policy for minoities, by majority of Hindus? Where as backward Hindus enjoy these facilities constitutionally!

5. If our constitution is secular then why there is a clause that if an SC/ST Hindu, enjoying the facility through a qoute system (Such as job, admission to any institute etc.) loose his/her privileges, if converts to Islam/Christianity, BUT keep them if she converts to Budhism or Sikhism? In a secular country how RELIGION come in to picture in the constitution? To extend it further, why an argument based on RELIGION, muslims are denied the reservation, in a secular country? (To those who do not know, our judiciary and political system say that since there is no cast in the Islam so there is no reservation for muslims. Reservation is for cast system societies only. But forget this fact that cast is also by religion, in Hinduism. It is not a independent entity.)

You people can skip the questions or answers, as you wish. BUT I REQUEST YOU TO GIVE ME CORRECT AND FACTFULL ANSWERS, NOT ASSUMPTIONS AND HALF TRUTHS.

I hope to understand the complex problem, that we face, from a new angle and enrich our perspective.
Thanks
Kashif

 

[KashifAsrar]

Adux, as I said, Indian Muslims are more blunt about this Hindu/Muslim divisions. It's the truth, during the time of Azharuddin, and all the criticism he faced whenever they lost to Pakistan, it was whispered around that the Muslim lost to Pakistan on purpose. Hindu/Muslim divisions in the Indian team has been brought about by both sides not just the Muslims. Paradigms would change as there is actual change. With the inclusion of Muslim players and Muslim Heroes like Irfan Pathan, the Muslims can see that there are no dividing tactics employed by the Hindu side so why should the Muslims not opt for Harmony.

Cricket is a very small example, but one that encompasses the question of the Indian identity.

You carry my point quite clearly Asim.
Thanks bro.
Kashif

 

[Adux]

Maybe then muslims should go somewhere they feel their identity is perfect. I for one, had enough of this circus.

 

[Contrarian]

Adux, no, the questions asked by Kashif, deserve an answer. Muslims are Indian, if they dont feel like its their country, something has to be and should be done. Only a small percentage is hardcore and is bent on destroying the country. The rest are caught in an identity crisis, or so i feel.

Kashif, please give me time to respond to your questions.

 

[Adux]

I am sorry, I dont agree. He is implying there has been some conspiracy of having Hindu players in the cricket team, what if it was just that none of the muslim players werent good. The first strike is at a conspiracy, why no self-introspection.

I refuse to take this idiotic explanation, you know why. In the Indian social ladder I am an OBC and so is he, I know I have to earn my friggin life, and there are no free plates in this country. Especially when it has 300 million poor, most of whom are Hindu's. Is there are a conspiracy? I am sorry. he can shove his arguement where the sun dont shine.
I love Irfan Pathan for the fact that he is a good player and he is an indian, I will not speak of his personal choices in religion, sexual preferences etc etc. I am not going to keep a condition that only if a malayalee Hindu of a OBC section is in the cricket team, that i am going to support team India. Such low crap.

 

[Neo]

Bye bye Nina.

 

[Adux]

Thank YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Finally
YOu need to clean up this forum, so i can get back to my old self..g

 

[Neo]

Her last wish was to give you a prmanent ban aswell...I bet there's chemistry between you two lol

 

[ARSENAL6]

It seems to me that certain people paint the same brush on everyone else

We didnt see islamic brotherhood when iraq attack kuwait..

Thats like saying that Pakistan are the first people to land on Mars !
I guess the efforts of Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia... are not counted for
Plus its not an easy to say and form a black and white opinion on this situation
due to the issue of Muslim vs Muslim on both accounts (se Iraq on Kuwait and Middleeast vs Iraq)
If one had lived through the Gulf War era they would understand the pressure and the twsit that was going on during that time.


BTW we may not be the first, but inshallah Pakistan will reach Mars how long it ever takes ! INSHALLAH !we keep trying with Gods Help.

But going on the topic
for those who are Muslim living in Pakistan is in it quite strange to put
your national than your religion even though Pakistan was created on the idea of
Islamic country ?