Most of Pakistan isn't a part of the Indian sub-continent

[Hamza913]

Ahmed Khan Kharal indeed was a great Punjabi freedom fighter who bravely fought against the British occupiers ... But his enemies were mostly other Muslims (Kharals from Kamalia, Makhdooms of Multan and Arains from Sahiwal), not Sikhs, who sided with the British against him and his allies that ultimately led to his martyrdom.

The Sikhs were also his enemy, he fought against them before the British Empire:

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Khan_Kharal

And no, Pakistani Punjabis do not have different tribes from Indians.

Yes we do lol. As others said earlier, you will not find Qureshis, Awans, Syeds, Ansaris, Mughals, Arains, Pathan tribes, Baloch tribes, Kashmiri tribes, etc among Indian Punjabis.

Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars have been the major Musalman tribes in Punjab.

Those tribes are not the majority, and a lot of the clans among them in Pakistani Punjab are not present in Indian Punjab. For example, my father is a Bara. We are all native Muslims descended from a Sufi, you do not get non-Muslim Bara (unless one of us decides to convert, which I doubt has ever happened).

Even today, there are more Non Muslim Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars in India than Muslim Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars in Pakistan.

No, there are more Muslim than Kafir Gujjars. In Pakistan and Afghanistan, pretty much all the Gujjars are Muslim. In India, most Gujjars are in the Kashmir region and these ones are also pretty much all Muslim. You also get Muslim Gujjars scattered in other parts of India. Kafir Gujjars are the minority.

You can literally Google Gujjars and almost all the pictures clearly depict Muslims:

And you are absolutely wrong. There was nothing 'Islamic' about Abdali's looting campaigns

They were perfectly halal.

(which many times were directed against Muslim rulers and Muslim commoners anyway)

The only Muslim commoners who died were the ones who welcomed and lived alongside the Sikh Empire. Sorry but they should've joined their brothers in Islam if they didn't want to become a part of collateral damage. You can't expect him to not target a major centre of the Sikh Empire (e.g Lahore) just because some Muslims lived there too.

Fighting against looters and plunderers and expelling them from your motherland does not Nullify your Islam.

Fighting against your fellow Muslims and siding with the enemies of Islam most certainly does nullify your Islam. For goodness sake, the Sikh Empire desecrated Masjids and because of them, Muslims stopped being the dominant power in the Punjab (until 1947) because of him. Why the heck are you siding against your own people?

But those Afghani plunderers were not Pakistani.

Yes they were. They had Pakistani Pashtuns, Pakistani Baloch, and even some Pakistani Punjabis fighting for them. Ahmed Shah Durrani himself is believed by many to have been born in Multan.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Yes, I know. Ranjit Singh and Sikh Empire is generally disliked by Pakistanis because of Muslim genocide carried out by Sikhs in East Punjab ( the genocide was mutual though) in 1947.

Many Punjabi Musilims held high posts in Ranjit Singh's Punjab. He was a secular ruler. One of his Muslim generals, Elaahi Bukhsh of Lahore, the incharge of Khalsa Artillery, was the man behind the defeat of Sayyad Ahmad Shaheed's Yousafzai Army in the famous battle of Balakot. It was not about Muslim Vs Nonmuslim as many people try to make it look like. With a few exceptions, those wars were fought just for power, territory and wealth

From what I understood they neither liked baba ahmad shah abdali nor the sikhs. The difference was that to ahmad shah they only have to give thekha. Sikh zyda hi chaan chare pirde si. Saade te ek ummi da cousin huni foht hoya jinnay 12-15 sikh vadday si parition de vich talwar naal. Pind di basti te appi kara ho gaya talwar naal, te jeray vi sikh aya mukabla karan uno otay hi vaad sitaya.

 

[M. Sarmad]

The Sikhs were also his enemy, he fought against them before the British Empire:

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Khan_Kharal



Yes we do lol. As others said earlier, you will not find Qureshis, Awans, Syeds, Ansaris, Mughals, Arains, Pathan tribes, Baloch tribes, Kashmiri tribes, etc among Indian Punjabis.



Those tribes are not the majority, and a lot of the clans among them in Pakistani Punjab are not present in Indian Punjab. For example, my father is a Bara. We are all native Muslims descended from a Sufi, you do not get non-Muslim Bara (unless one of us decides to convert, which I doubt has ever happened).



No, there are more Muslim than Kafir Gujjars. In Pakistan and Afghanistan, pretty much all the Gujjars are Muslim. In India, most Gujjars are in the Kashmir region and these ones are also pretty much all Muslim. You also get Muslim Gujjars scattered in other parts of India. Kafir Gujjars are the minority.

You can literally Google Gujjars and almost all the pictures clearly depict Muslims:

View attachment 531687 View attachment 531688

They were perfectly halal.



The only Muslim commoners who died were the ones who welcomed and lived alongside the Sikh Empire. Sorry but they should've joined their brothers in Islam if they didn't want to become a part of collateral damage. You can't expect him to not target a major centre of the Sikh Empire (e.g Lahore) just because some Muslims lived there too.



Fighting against your fellow Muslims and siding with the enemies of Islam most certainly does nullify your Islam. For goodness sake, the Sikh Empire desecrated Masjids and because of them, Muslims stopped being the dominant power in the Punjab (until 1947) because of him. Why the heck are you siding against your own people?



Yes they were. They had Pakistani Pashtuns, Pakistani Baloch, and even some Pakistani Punjabis fighting for them. Ahmed Shah Durrani himself is believed by many to have been born in Multan.

I am not interested in your childish arguments Bhai
Posting random images and Wikipedia links does not prove anything.

As for you saying that Muslim Gujjars outnumber Non Muslim Gujjars, .... JFYI, as per 1931 Census, Gujjars were present in significant numbers in 8 British India provinces, Pakistan got only 1 ( and a half) of them. Gujarat and Rajasthan have been the historical abodes of Gujjars. Haryana, Punjab, Himachal Pradesh and even UP has large population of Non Muslim Gujjars.

From what I understood they neither liked baba ahmad shah abdali nor the sikhs. The difference was that to ahmad shah they only have to give thekha. Sikh zyda hi chaan chare pirde si. Saade te ek ummi da cousin huni foht hoya jinnay 12-15 sikh vadday si parition de vich talwar naal. Pind di basti te appi kara ho gaya talwar naal, te jeray vi sikh aya mukabla karan uno otay hi vaad sitaya.

Yes, besides routinely looting them directly, the taxes imposed by Abdali on Punjabi Muslims were so high that it was impossible for them to pay such large amounts. Will post details later.

 

[Hamza913]

I am not interested in your childish arguments Bhai

Don't call me bhai.

Posting random images and Wikipedia links does not prove anything.

They do if the pictures are the majority, and the Wikipedia link gives proper citations for my claim.

FYI, as per 1931 Census, Gujjars were present in significant numbers in 8 British India provinces, Pakistan got only 1 ( and a half) of them.

The population of Muslim Gujjars are larger than that of Hindu Gujjars. Pakistani and Afghan Gujjars are almost all Muslim, and Indian Gujjars are mostly Muslim too since most of them are concentrated in the Kashmir region (and most Kashmiri Gujjars are Muslim). Plenty of the Gujjars in other places like UP and HP are also Muslim. Stop trying to Hindu-fy our people, it's silly.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

I am not interested in your childish arguments Bhai
Posting random images and Wikipedia links does not prove anything.

As for you saying that Muslim Gujjars outnumber Non Muslim Gujjars, .... JFYI, as per 1931 Census, Gujjars were present in significant numbers in 8 British India provinces, Pakistan got only 1 ( and a half) of them. Gujarat and Rajasthan have been the historical abodes of Gujjars. Haryana, Punjab, Himachal Pradesh and even UP has large population of Non Muslim Gujjars.

I'll tell you in interesting story.

Partition de waqt jadon sikha de jahtay aunde si saday pind vaal, lokian ne karray paray hunde si kersone naal. Sadi zannania kotay toh utton sit di hundiya si karray Sikha te, te bandaya ne teeli la de ni. Nani saadi das di si oh boh sab to perri si, jeri sarri laasha ton aundi si. Balkay bardasht ne hundi si. Gali'aa vich una diyan haddiyan kuttay chub de si.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Don't call me bhai.



They do if the pictures are the majority, and the Wikipedia link gives proper citations for my claim.



The population of Muslim Gujjars are larger than that of Hindu Gujjars. Pakistani and Afghan Gujjars are almost all Muslim, and Indian Gujjars are mostly Muslim too since most of them are concentrated in the Kashmir region (and most Kashmiri Gujjars are Muslim). Plenty of the Gujjars in other places like UP and HP are also Muslim. Stop trying to Hindu-fy our people, it's silly.

Stop quoting me Mr. Taimur
Didn't I tell you I was not interested in your childish arguments?

 

[Pakistani E]

Yes, I know. Ranjit Singh and Sikh Empire are generally disliked by Pakistanis because the Muslim genocide carried out by Sikhs in East Punjab ( the genocide was mutual though) in 1947 made the two Punjabi religious communities lose trust in eachother.

The hatred for Sikh rule isn't only because of 1947 though. It goes way back to the rule of Sikh misls, where they butchered many Muslims. I know of stories from our elders of men being killed in battle and massacres of all boys and enslavement of women and girls by Sikhs, although I'll give credit to Ranjit Singh for having the sense to be more inclusive towards his Muslim subjects.

I am all for having an open mind when it comes to history, but I will never ever accept the rule of Sikhs in Punjab as something to be proud of.

 

[Hamza913]

I'll give credit to Ranjit Singh for having the sense to be more inclusive towards his Muslim subjects.

He wasn't. He turned Masjids into stables.

 

[M. Sarmad]

The hatred for Sikh rule isn't only because of 1947 though. It goes way back to the rule of Sikh misls, where they butchered many Muslims. I know of stories from our elders of men being killed in battle and massacres of all boys and enslavement of women and girls by Sikhs, although I'll give credit to Ranjit Singh for having the sense to be more inclusive towards his Muslim subjects.

I am all for having an open mind when it comes to history, but I will never ever accept the rule of Sikhs in Punjab as something to be proud of.

Nice to see you post after long time, bro. Hope everything is fine.

 

[Pakistani E]

Nice to see you post after long time, bro. Hope everything is fine.

Alhamdolillah. How are things at your end? I was just taking a break from this forum.

He wasn't. He turned Masjids into stables.

At least as a statesman, he understood the importance of co-opting local Muslim chieftains. I know many Muslims fought for him and served at his court.

 

[Hamza913]

I know many Muslims fought for him and served at his court.

All Munafiqoon who Ahmed Shah Durrani (rahimuhullah) defeated.

 

[Pakistani E]

All Munafiqoon who Ahmed Shah Durrani (rahimuhullah) defeated.

I don't know the intentions buried deep in people's hearts. Let Allah be the judge.

 

[Hamza913]

I don't know the intentions buried deep in people's hearts. Let Allah be the judge.

Their intentions are apparent. They joined the enemies of their people for selfish reasons (some such as Adina Beg might have been trying to weaken all players though, in a Timur-like fashion).

 

[Cobra Arbok]

My God, the stupidity of members from both countries here is painful. First of all @BringHarmony, if you are actually Anglo Canadian, my advice is to avoid getting into controversial South Asian issues, because as you can tell by now, some Pakistanis here are overly sensitive and get easily offended. And tbh, it really does not affect you what Pakistanis call themselves.

@HalfMoon, India and Pakistan are now two different countries with different histories. If the past 70 years had been any different, perhaps we would be at a point where we consider it acceptable to consider Pakistan's history(and Bangladesh's) as part of the history of a "greater" ancient India. However, no such situation exists today, so we cannot disrespect Pakistanis by denying them the right to their heritage.

Most of all, I cannot stand how any discussion about Race, ethnicity, culture, and history in South Asia inevitably turns into a contest to see who looks fairer. It is always a handful of posters responsible. So let us finally settle this "debate" once and for all

Peshawar, Pakistan

Mumbai. India

Lahore, Pakistan

Lucknow, India

And if a picture is a thousand words, a video is a thousand pictures.
Lahore Pakistan

Meerut, India

Hyderabad, Sindh

Dehradun, Uttarakhand.

Sialkot Pakistan

Mumbai India

Gujarati herder

rural Punjabi farmers

So obviously, there are differences, but people of both countries are not as different from each other in terms of looks as some here want to believe. Obviously, there are exceptions, such South and East Indians and some Pakistani Pukhtoons and Balochis, but overall, not too different. Of course, skin color is the most superficial of differences and is just one feature of race and ethnicity. And not to mention culture and religion, which are the major differences between people. Indians and Pakistanis are no exception in this regard. Although Indians and Pakistanis could not be more different culturally and religiously, they do not look as different from each other as some want to believe.

 

[Dalai Lama]

I mean, surely Pakistan is part of Western Europe.