Max G turn rate (approx.) JF-17 14.4 deg/s vs F-16 13.33 deg/s

[el nino]

The thunder in its current guise is fairly useless in a dog fight

So comparing turn rates against arguably the best dog fighter in the sub continent is academic at best useless at worst.

The thunder has no helmet mounted displays or high off bore sight missles.

The turn rate on its own means nothing as the enemy does not need to turn simply look and engage and the thunder is gone.

This weakness in thunder is a serious issue if the Pakistanis get into a war with India whose fighters all carry this crucial technology even on bison mig 21.

You will not like this fact but reality can be painful

 

[CriticalThought]

The thunder in its current guise is fairly useless in a dog fight

So comparing turn rates against arguably the best dog fighter in the sub continent is academic at best useless at worst.

The thunder has no helmet mounted displays or high off bore sight missles.

The turn rate on its own means nothing as the enemy does not need to turn simply look and engage and the thunder is gone.

This weakness in thunder is a serious issue if the Pakistanis get into a war with India whose fighters all carry this crucial technology even on bison mig 21.

You will not like this fact but reality can be painful

What you have written goes against the very basics of dog fighting.

http://elementsofpower.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/the-f-35-and-infamous-sustained-g-spec.html

The rules used for assignment of comparative parity, superiority, and dominance ranges above and to follow are not mine. Consulting Raymer* (page 105) provided me with my first indication:
An aircraft designed for air-to-air dogfighting must be capable of high turn rate. This parameter dѱ/dt or ѱ, will determine the outcome of the dogfight if the aircraft and pilots are evenly matched otherwise. When air-to-air missiles are in use, the first aircraft to turn towards the other aircraft enough to launch a missile will probably win. In a guns-only dogfight, the aircraft with the higher turn rate will be able to maneuver behind the other. A turn rate superiority of 2 deg/s is considered significant.*Aircraft Design: A Conceptual Approach 3rd Edition; D.P. Raymer;AIAA Education Series; 1999.

I had originally intended to use the ‘2 deg/s’ standard to evaluate which aircraft had ‘significant’ advantage over others when, in reviewing my ‘Fighter Performance’ handbook, I found an expansion on Raymer’s observations:

Now, to your other claims regarding Thunder.

1. In a typical engagement with Indian fighters, Thunder will be employing its BVR missiles.
2. In case both parties survive the initial BVR exchange, then as noted above, the turn rates will start to matter.
3. Amongst other tactics, the counter to HOBS is to force the bandit into a high G turn. In an 8 G turn, the pilot's head is so heavy, he can't actually move his head.
4. A WVRAAM HOBS missile can still be misled through flares and chaffs.
5. Even to fire the HOBS missile, you still need to get onto the Thunder's tail. Please show me through quantitative data that Indian aircraft will always be able to get onto the Thunder's tail.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

My little find for day

Seems like JF17 Thunder lives in a exclusive family

 

[CriticalThought]

My little find for day

The reality is a bit more nuanced. Do note the small writing at the bottom of the pic you posted

Comparison Valid Only for Selected Configurations and Flight Conditions.

This is a truer picture

 

[CriticalThought]

Here is a interesting comparison from a Russian perspective on full combat turn.

But like said Dog fighting is more than G turns FULLcombat turns agility

Technology like HMD and HOBS

engine power TWR

RCS

Rsdar & Jammers are of equal or more importance

Incorrect comparison.

1. The Thunder at Izmir show wasn't flying anywhere near full after burner. It was a moderately powered turn to give a sampling of its capabilities. If you want to find out the real turn rate, send some Tejas over to get a first hand experience. Also, as shown from the 23 March 2017 video in the OP, the Thunder has recently gone through some engine tweaks that will give it even more power.

2. There are any number of parameters you can tweak to max out a plane's turn rate. And the Russian pilot actually admits to it in the video itself. With the Americans vs Russians, it was a game of oneupmanship to eek out the max possible turn rate using any dirty trick in the book. You wouldn't realize those kinds of turn rates in a real dogfight with full armaments. The turn rate even depends on the altitude on which you are flying and the air temperature and humidity on the day.

You are trivializing the art and science of dog fighting to the point of becoming a game of how many toys one has. Yes, things like HMD/S and HOBS matter, but they are not the end all. There are many more factors to winning a dog fight, but you are conveniently looking those aside. Your loss.

 

[CriticalThought]

Stop contradicting ME

I AM THE ONE lecturing you on DOG FIGHTING far more complicated then G TURNS

read my post AGAIN and ONE MORE TIME STILL

First of all, calm down and mind the tone in which you talk to others.

You are trivializing dog fighting to having certain features on the aircraft which suit your arguments because Indian aircraft have them. This is where you are wrong. It takes much more than HOBS and HMD/S to win a dog fight.

 

[Storm Force]

The JF17 programme was useful BUT a modest BUDGET has prodiuced a modest fighter

A good replacement for F7 and ancient mirages

But no way near the level of the BIG hitters in the region ie F16 su30mki MIG29 and Soon Rafale

 

[CriticalThought]

The JF17 programme was useful BUT a modest BUDGET has prodiuced a modest fighter

A good replacement for F7 and ancient mirages

But no way near the level of the BIG hitters in the region ie F16 su30mki MIG29 and Soon Rafale

Rafale, OK, maybe not.

But it is a credible threat to F16 (IF pitted against it), SU-30MKI is actually Indian folly, and even Russian aviation experts say the JF-17 is equivalent to MIG29 at a lower cost:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-extremely-close-to-the-mig-29-mikhail-pogosyan.70114/

The deal is facing opposition from Russian aircraft manufacturers, such as Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi aviation holding, who said that the FC-1 is extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29. Pogosyan claimed that FC-1 is a direct competitor to Russia's MiG-29 and the deal would incur losses for the Russian manufacturers.

Btw, we have the upgraded version of the engine in Mig-29. Now you decide whether we can threaten your aircraft or not!

 

[CriticalThought]

Dress this up any way you Like

The simple truth is you get what you pay for

Modest budget = Modest plane

The simple truth is Indians are parvenus who lack in basic military planning.

Short range due to low fuel carrying capacity

Doesn't matter, we are not aggressors, we are defenders of a certain airspace. The Thunder has more than enough range to defend all of Pakistan, and even penetrate into Indian territory. This is the role for which this aircraft was envisaged, and it is fulfilling it excellently.

dated flight control with single axis FBW only

You don't read enough on the forum

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17b-maiden-flight-video.492260/page-8#post-9429873

FC-1 was always planned to have FullAu-FbW/FbL/FbO. Hybrid was maintained as a backup in initial batches only.
The fault tolerant FbW are triples dissimilar ASICs, these command actuator control ICs - ACE units through DATAC data buses. ICs do all computation for actuating surfaces on FC-1 for pitch-yaw and roll under complete authority. It is a major statement. That is why it has comparable performance to USF16.

heavey metal alloy airframe rather than composites

Ask your hotshot SU-30MKI pilots what happens when the Thunder meets them at the borders.

all chinease technology and weapons no western technology which reduces its rating as a export potential

Except we already sold it to Nigeria and Myanmar. And the technology is a combination of Italian, Turkish, and Chinese. You don't really know what you are talking about.

And no HMD/HOBS capability absolute essential AS PROVED by the ISRAELIS in BEKAA VALLEY massacare

Tell your Israelis to come to Daddy. We are ready to teach them new lessons. They have obviously forgotten the old ones.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Indians are justing of butthurt these days can't comprehend the Thunder can do a 14.33 turn
Burnole , is needed once Block 3 (JF17 +) Comes along

This is a great technological achivement if the figures are accurate to 1% accuracy

Standing in exclusive class of fighters who can achieve high quality turns while in high G-Turn situation

I have to admit 1 seater is sexy bird, the best looking picture someone took for Thunder !!!

 

[CriticalThought]

Brutal & honest assessment from the enemy

If your financial limitations continue so you cant even buy 8 new block 52
And the USA continue to deny grant aid for more heavey usa hardware the next war I the air will be won easily by india

There is no way 70 odd F16 are going to last long against over 400 su30mki Mig29 Rafale fighters

No chance

THE thunder is good but NO F16

It may be brutal, it may be honest, but it most certainly isn't correct.

Now understand this regarding the F-16s. Our position is: if we get more, very well. If we don't, no loss. Do you understand this? This means, if the US was going to subsidize them, we had no problems with them. At 800 million for 8, we got better uses for our money. The PAF isn't short of funds, contrary to what you like to think. Just this year, its budget has been increased by 1.5 billion dollars. That's an increase over what it was previously.

Also, what is funny is you are gloating over a fighter you don't even have yet: Rafale. Your statement is equivalent to me saying "There is no way you will last against 300 JF-17s, 100 F-16s, and 50 fifth generation FC-31". Do you see what happened there?

Now, for your numerical supremacy, as aggressors against an enemy who poses a formidable SAM threat, you need all those numbers to even have a fighting chance. There is a reason why your own airforce keeps crying "We don't have enough fighters" If you dont' believe me, at least believe your own airforce. You actually don't have enough fighters to act as aggressors inside Pakistani territory.

 

[kabooter_maila]

View attachment 393932



That fictious air force will never happen . more wish lists like the threads on SU35 purchase or mirage2000 purchase or J10 purchase whivh open daily

Rafale is deal done money paid arriving 2019 and indian pilots already in france training

You mentioned SAM threat ............PAKISTAN has no sams only shoulder fired man pads

Only india has SAMS like Akash SPYDER barak 8 & S300 with S400 to come

Come on Pak boys. Why you are wasting your time with a dumb ignorant Indian. No need to tell this idiot which SAMs Pakistan has. He needs to google and find it out himself. Let him bark alone. Just ignore him. That's gonna be the most suitable punishment to him.

 

[CHI RULES]

View attachment 393932



That fictious air force will never happen . more wish lists like the threads on SU35 purchase or mirage2000 purchase or J10 purchase whivh open daily

Rafale is deal done money paid arriving 2019 and indian pilots already in france training

You mentioned SAM threat ............PAKISTAN has no sams only shoulder fired man pads

Only india has SAMS like Akash SPYDER barak 8 & S300 with S400 to come

Dear Sir, I am wondering that how much wrong ur above statement is abt Pak having only man pads. Pak already have sufficient short to medium range capable SAMS like LY80 (newly inducted), SPADA/ASPIDE, even upgraded crotale SAM , HQ7. Further Pak also has few batteries of HQ2B also upgraded. Many claim that Pak already has got HQ9 ( no authentic source).

 

[CriticalThought]

Dear Sir, I am wondering that how much wrong ur above statement is abt Pak having only man pads. Pak already have sufficient short to medium range capable SAMS like LY80 (newly inducted), SPADA/ASPIDE, even upgraded crotale SAM , HQ7. Further Pak also has few batteries of HQ2B also upgraded. Many claim that Pak already has got HQ9 ( no authentic source).

He ran out of arguments so resorted to trolling. Report him and ignore.

 

[Trango Towers]

Which makes sense, the actual rate of JF-17 would be classified... until we hand it over to Myanmar and BD and I fully expect it to be discussed on a forum called jf-17.net just like there is a f-16.net I am looking forward to those happy days!!!

Also note the lack of thick black smoke trail on JF-17 throughout the demo. Do you know what's going on here?

In any case, I'd say this is pretty darned impressive.

Better combustion chambers