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Leaked report: Pakistan had 'major failures' during OBL incident

Bunch of Islamists now talk about constitution of Pakistan (that they didn't believe in the first place). Hahahah.


You are now going hoarse shouting at Kiyanai who is 100000 more man than you could ever be

And he is obviously 100000000 more of a patriot than you could ever be.


It is like bunch of circus clowns trying to lynch a decorated general.

Wah ji Wah.

People who helped foreign armies attack Pakistan are patriots. People who object on national principle are conveniently termed as Islamists? Is your world view this narrow that you can't digest that a secular may object anti-Pakistan activities of the GHQ!

If you have an issue with the constitution, change it democratically, with a 2/3rd vote, until then I do have a right to criticize the actions of every traitor in the country.
 
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Let's separate two issues here:

A- Did Pakistan's top brass know about OBL's presence?
B- Did they know about the raid?

The only serious issue is A.

As for B, even if Pakistan knew about the raid, it was not going to go to war with America. For what? to protect OBL?

(Let's not get into issues of sovereignty. The OBL raid was just another drone strike, conceptually.)

How about to protect Pakistani soil? India would have gone to war for 10 inches of their land. Are they more bahadur than we are?

Both are equally damning. OBL's presence makes us a global embarrassment, US attack on Pakistan exposes us to dangers of foreign armies coming into Pakistan our forces able to do zilch and going home all happy.

In both incidents Kayani is at fault. Mind you, OBL's presence in Pakistan is being excused as incompetence, because complicity would have meant hell for Pakistan. I and the world and even the people of Pakistan have a hard time buying that they were not complicit.
 
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How about to protect Pakistani soil?

People wouldn't buy that.

After all the drone strikes, Pakistan decides to take a stand on this raid -- against the most wanted criminal on the planet?

It would be portrayed as defending OBL, and the Pakistani media would be in the forefront condemning the army.

As for knowing about OBL's whereabouts, I can believe that some junior/mid level individuals may have known, but it doesn't mean that the top brass knew. There is no benefit to Pakistan by sheltering him.
 
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People wouldn't buy that.

After all the drone strikes, Pakistan decides to take a stand on this raid -- against the most wanted criminal on the planet?

It would be portrayed as defending OBL, and the Pakistani media would be in the forefront condemning the army.

As for knowing about OBL's whereabouts, I can believe that some junior/mid level individuals may have known, but it doesn't mean that the top brass knew. There is no benefit to Pakistan by sheltering him.

Principled stands are without exception - did you ever take this exception from the Pakistani parliament? Why don't you ask the National Assembly to sanction a list of incidents where it is allowed for foreign armies to attack you?

Let me ask you this in another way - if India attacks Muridke will you defend Pakistan against that attack? Would that defence be in support of Hafiz Saeed or in defence of Pakistani soil?
 
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People wouldn't buy that.

After all the drone strikes, Pakistan decides to take a stand on this raid -- against the most wanted criminal on the planet?

It would be portrayed as defending OBL, and the Pakistani media would be in the forefront condemning the army.

As for knowing about OBL's whereabouts, I can believe that some junior/mid level individuals may have known, but it doesn't mean that the top brass knew. There is no benefit to Pakistan by sheltering him.

Pakistan would have taken a stance against violation of its sovereignty because you are saying that Army top leadership did not knew about Osama (so for them 4 choppers coming in would convey a very different message). If and when they did got that from Americans they could have killed and disposed Osama in a manner which would not make Pakistan a butt of joke in the international community.

There is also the issue of Musharraf's autobiography where he proudly boosts how many terrorists they have handed over to USA for $$$ (Which national army indulges in bounty hunting? and which COAS is shameless enough to pass it as an achievement?). Which means Pakistani Army could easily have sold Osama for $$.
 
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I think bro

you are forgetting the title of this thread.

Please open a new one if you want to discuss Pak army's role in Pakistan.

Thank you


p.s. Only an Islamist or a Hindu will compare Congo with Pakistan.

You denounce Islamist but in the same breath quote their favorite mantra about them evil Hindus. Neither India nor Hindus quipped out Bin Laden's Pakistan hideout to the USA. In fact Indians were as surprised as the rest of the world when the news was released about Bin Laden's capture and death in Pakistan. Pakistan's "major failure" poses no reason for Indians to gloat. If your intelligence/executive/military was genuinely unaware (which I seriously doubt as stated earlier) of Bin Laden being in Pakistan at times, then that poses a bigger threat to India in my view. India borders Pakistan. If the situation was complete ignorance on the part of Pakistan's establishment then the question must arise as to what intelligence exists about groups posing a threat to Pakistan's neighbors and in particular groups whom Pakistan does not wish to associate with nor has any interest in supporting.
 
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Let me ask you this in another way - if India attacks Muridke will you defend Pakistan against that attack? Would that defence be in support of Hafiz Saeed or in defence of Pakistani soil?

There's a difference. You are comparing Apples and Oranges.

The whole mindset of the military and government alike is different for India and the US. Similarly, US didn't attack Abbottabad, they did a covert op on only one house...had they exercised the other option of bombing the place with a B-2, then it could have been called an 'attack on Abbottabad'.

If India does a covert op for Hafiz Saeed, it wouldn't be called an 'attack' on Pakistan, it would be an intrusion of territory, covert op, raid or whatever, but not an attack on Pakistan. If India attacks on Muridke, then that would be an attack on Muridke, Hafiz Saeed doesn't feature in this scenario.

I agree with Develepereo, that this was essentially another drone strike. And whatever you may cry about the sovereignty thing, you can't deny the fact that this was a successful op that killed OBL, similarly alot of the drone strikes have been very useful in killing targets as well. Not that I am supporting drone strikes, but you have got to acknowledge that they are sometimes useful.
 
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There's a difference. You are comparing Apples and Oranges.

The whole mindset of the military and government alike is different for India and the US. Similarly, US didn't attack Abbottabad, they did a covert op on only one house...had they exercised the other option of bombing the place with a B-2, then it could have been called an 'attack on Abbottabad'.

4 Pakistanis were killed without trial - If they kill them with bullets or by carpet bombing, they are dead all the same. Pakistani constitution guarantees the right to a fair trial to every Pakistani. Who is the military to decide this right can be waived when the US comes with guns?

If India does a covert op for Hafiz Saeed, it wouldn't be called an 'attack' on Pakistan, it would be an intrusion of territory, covert op, raid or whatever, but not an attack on Pakistan. If India attacks on Muridke, then that would be an attack on Muridke, Hafiz Saeed doesn't feature in this scenario.
This differentiation didn't work time and time again for Pakistan. In 1965 we wanted an attack on Kashmir to remain an attack on Kashmir, India reverted with an attack on Lahore. Attitudes ka farak hai. They are ready to defend their nation, we are looking the other way when an attack happens.

I agree with Develepereo, that this was essentially another drone strike. And whatever you may cry about the sovereignty thing, you can't deny the fact that this was a successful op that killed OBL, similarly alot of the drone strikes have been very useful in killing targets as well. Not that I am supporting drone strikes, but you have got to acknowledge that they are sometimes useful.

Each and every drone attack IS an attack on Pakistani soil and each attack highlights the treachery of the GHQ when it refuses to repel an attack by a foreign military.

Please let me know which all foreign armies are allowed to kill me and against which all armies will the PA defend me... Taakeh main apna intizaam khud hi karloon.
 
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well to all pakistani members the OBL raid was an eyewash both from USA and pakistani establishment i beleve that top general of ISI , PA knew about the Raid in advance and they reamined quite when the operation was under way cause they themselfs wanted to get rid of OBL but he bieng the one of the most loved person by many pakistanis in general the top brass asked USA to do the Dirty work and helped Obama to get back in office again + getting tons of money in reward while making a lot of noises as they did in past against the drone strikes but never did anything serous to stop them ....wonder why
 
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Pakistan's bin Laden report could be a 'cover-up' | Asia | DW.DE | 10.07.2013

Incompetence or complicity?

Some western analysts, however, are not ready to accept that Pakistan's ubiquitous security agencies were only "negligent" in failing to locate bin Laden's Abbottabad house. They think they were actually protecting him. Rolf Tophoven, director of the German-based Institute for Terrorism Research & Security Policy (IFTUS), regards the report as "an attempt to cover up those in Pakistan who actually knew about bin Laden's whereabouts and get them off the hook." The expert told DW that by claiming that the authorities were incompetent, the inquiry whitewashed those members of the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence), who, he claimed, knew that the al Qaeda founder was hiding in their country.

"The ISI isn't by far as negligent as the report claims it to be," Tophoven said. He believes the intelligence agency has always kept a close eye on events unfolding in Pakistan's northwestern tribal regions and is known to have had links to al Qaeda before the September 11, 2001 attacks in the US.

It is precisely because of these connections and a lack of trust that Tophoven believes the US didn't inform Pakistani authorities about the impending raid on the residential compound in Abbottabad, not far from a military academy. "I believe they kept Pakistan in the dark until the operation was well underway because they were worried that bin Laden would be tipped off. "This view is shared by intelligence expert Riedel: "Whether through incompetence or complicity, or more likely both, the Pakistani security establishment can not be trusted to fight al Qaeda. That is as true today as in 2011. "Irrespective of that, most experts agree the leak is unlikely to have the slightest effect on US-Pakistani relations. "For the next 12 to 24 months, these relations will be dictated by the constraints of the US withdrawal from Afghanistan," said Frederic Grare from the Washington-based Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
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4 Pakistanis were killed without trial - If they kill them with bullets or by carpet bombing, they are dead all the same. Pakistani constitution guarantees the right to a fair trial to every Pakistani. Who is the military to decide this right can be waived when the US comes with guns?
...............

So then what happens to that very same constitutional right of the right to a fair trial when the military abducts and detains Pakistani nationasl without a trace by the hundreds, and some end up dead? How convenient of you to forget the same outrage in the Missing Persons Case, Sir.
 
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Abbottabad Commission Report: An apt summary of why we may be a “failed state”

Now that we know the details of how we harboured the world’s most wanted man for nearly a decade, before letting a foreign power invade our territory without being detected, let alone countered, the term “failed nation” has a deeper resonance for us.

Osama Bin Laden entered Pakistan in 2002, and after loitering in Peshawar, Swat and Haripur, made a cozy, comfy, illegal home with his wives, children and grandchildren in Abbottabad. Here, he helped plot al Qaeda initiatives through electronic communication. Protected from arrest and tortured by the laughable incompetence of Pakistani law enforcement agencies, he encouraged his grandchildren to compete over “who could tend the best vegetable patch” and wore a cowboy hat to avoid detection by US satellites.

When he was stopped alongside a companion for speeding in Abbottabad, the policeman in-charge was not quick-witted enough to spot him. Accident? Perhaps. But I prefer to characterise this accident as yet another testimony to the simple and sorry fact that our police and civilian intelligence is little more than utterly, absolutely useless.

In fact, former chief of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Ahmed Shuja Pasha confirmed this when he said:
“(In Pakistan’s defence ministry) the thinking process was non-existent.”

How comforting for a nation that is mugged, raped and robbed every minute of the day.

Other local authorities proved cripplingly inept as well.

When Bin Laden’s companion Abrar bought property in Abbottabad for the al Qaeda leader’s residence, he used a fake ID card that was readily accepted by the Office of Revenue despite the fact that by this point in time, NICs had been replaced by Computerised National Identity Cards (CNICs).

How did all of this even happen?

Moreover, when four metres for electricity and gas were installed in this house to prevent indication of high usage, no one thought to follow up on why an abode housing only two families needed so many metres. Nobody thought to use their brain. From the unusual structure of the house to its illegally constructed third floor, nothing appeared suspicious to the municipal authorities. Instead, they recorded the property as “uninhabited” at a time when 26 people lived in it.

When the 2005 earthquake struck down Bin Laden’s boundary wall, it lay collapsed in rubble for months but the world’s most wanted terrorist still remained undetected.

In light of such ‘breathtaking incompetence and irresponsibility’ as the Abbottabad Commission puts it, what am I, the average Pakistani, supposed to believe? Should I believe that everyone who runs this country is blind, deaf and dumb to suspect activities that can cost me my life and existence? Or that somewhere, somehow in this entire scenario there were rogue officers pulling strings that left Bin Laden protected for years?

The Abbottabad Commission report further offers some insight here:

“Any of these lapses would in the circumstance be perfectly understandable. But the whole lot taken together added up to something that should not be so easily explained away. Taken together they suggested the possibility of something more sinister.”

And again:

“Given the length of stay and the changes of residence of [bin Laden] and his family in Pakistan … the possibility of some such direct or indirect and ‘plausibly deniable’ support cannot be ruled out, at least, at some level outside formal structures of the intelligence establishment.”

Even the ISI is heavily criticised in the report. It fell short of doing its job when the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) gave Pakistan phone numbers to monitor – phone numbers that eventually enabled the American manhunt to knock down Bin Laden’s door.

As I read General (R) Pasha’s insight on how the ISI is aware of where “foreign miscreants” are cocooned in major cities but helpless since these areas are off limits for law enforcement agencies, I didn’t quite know whether my fear trumped my scorn or vice versa.

Was Bin Laden one of these “miscreants” then? We may never know.

Among other horrifying revelations, the report also affirmed rumours that there was an implicit agreement between the US and Pakistan on drones, before the Pakistani government began its anti-drone campaign. Pasha said there were no written agreements, and that Pakistan did subsequently attempt to stop drone attacks. He summed it up aptly when he said:

“It was easier to say no to them at the beginning.”

Enter Operation Neptune Spear, the emphatically titled US raid on May 2, 2011 that made Pakistan the laughing stock of the international community. According to the report, the first our air force knew about the raid was when they saw reports of it on the media. Yes, that’s right; our media channels got there faster than our military – a phenomenon so ridiculous even the most embittered citizen will snort in derision.

Three hours of invading Pakistani air and land space, 100 miles of territory explored, a compound attacked, three Pakistanis killed – and the US military was able to leave without detection on our military’s part.

A breach of sovereignty for Pakistan? Yes. Or better put by Pasha as the “greatest humiliation” since East Pakistan seceded in 1971.

While the report cites this operation as an “American act of war against Pakistan”, I am conflicted.

Yes, it was an invasion of our rights, but did we deserve the international ‘glory’ of finally annihilating Bin Laden, or the trust that we will be able to manage his capture without leaks, accidents and overlooked details?

In any case, 201 interviews, seven field trip and 52 hearings later, Justice (retd) Javed Iqbal, head of the Abbottabad Commission, and his team of three have done a remarkably good job of giving an honest account of events. As for our beloved government, after ordering the investigation be conducted, they conveniently hid its findings from the public since January 2, 2013 when it was submitted by Justice Iqbal to the then prime minister.

Our current politicians have reacted to the leaked report in the flustered and inconsequential manner we expect from them. The only takeaway Minister for Information and Broadcasting Pervez Rashid could impart with was that the report “leaked to a foreign media outlet would be investigated”, starting with “ascertaining if the leaked report is factual to begin with.” The fact that it was conducted by a Supreme Court judge, on the orders of the government itself is not proof enough of its legitimacy for Mr Rashid. Meanwhile, Jamat-e-Islami (JI) lost no time in calling the report a work of foreign spy agencies (RAW, Mossad, Satan, you get it) bent on destroying the country that actually needs no enemy to destroy itself.

The only message from this entire report that in the slightest endears me to this country I call home is that the report actually exists. There are still people around who want to tell the truth impartially. Thankfully, in the era of Edward Snowden and Wikileaks, information makes its way to us somehow – in this case, it happened through the infamous Al Jazeera channel – a personal favourite of Osama Bin Laden according to the report. Now we know why.


Abbottabad Commission Report: An apt summary of why we may be a “failed state” – The Express Tribune Blog
 
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So then what happens to that very same constitutional right of the right to a fair trial when the military abducts and detains Pakistani nationasl without a trace by the hundreds, and some end up dead? How convenient of you to forget the same outrage in the Missing Persons Case, Sir.

Then starts carefully orchestrated media campaign to dis-credit judges who are handling the missing persons case. Some three days back I watched a video about Peshawar high-court judge (supposedly his nephews were drunk and killed someone) and was wondering why the heck would anyone care for that, later I found out that the same judge was handling the missing persons case. They really do take us for complete idiots :D
 
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Pakistan would have taken a stance against violation of its sovereignty because you are saying that Army top leadership did not knew about Osama (so for them 4 choppers coming in would convey a very different message). If and when they did got that from Americans they could have killed and disposed Osama in a manner which would not make Pakistan a butt of joke in the international community.

What I am saying is that, even if the Americans had notified the Pakistanis (assuming the report is true and they didn't), the American message would have been like the one right after 9/11:

"We are coming in. Either you get out of the way, or we will crush your military back to the stone age and do our mission anyway".

The reality is that Pakistan's military capability is nonexistent compared to the US. We can't even detect their choppers, let alone put up a fight against their heavy arsenal.

Principled stands are without exception - did you ever take this exception from the Pakistani parliament? Why don't you ask the National Assembly to sanction a list of incidents where it is allowed for foreign armies to attack you?

This raid was just like the drone strikes and, like those strikes, we can pick our poison: either we are complicit in the raids but don't want to acknowledge, for fear of further antagonizing the crazies, or we didn't know and couldn't do much against the US military machine anyway.

Let me ask you this in another way - if India attacks Muridke will you defend Pakistan against that attack? Would that defence be in support of Hafiz Saeed or in defence of Pakistani soil?

India is not the US.

The US can destroy Pakistan's entire military capability using just the carrier group in Bahrain. The rest of the US military doesn't even need to wake up. India cannot do so.

And the real fun would begin after the US had decimated Pakistan's military. All the crazies would start coming out of the woodwork. India would seize the opportunity to solidify gains. Pakistan would cease to exist as a country.
 
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What I am saying is that, even if the Americans had notified the Pakistanis (assuming the report is true and they didn't), the American message would have been like the one right after 9/11:

"We are coming in. Either you get out of the way, or we will crush your military back to the stone age and do our mission anyway".

The reality is that Pakistan's military capability is nonexistent compared to the US. We can't even detect their choppers, let alone put up a fight against their heavy arsenal.

First it is an assumption. Secondly if the assumption holds true and USA can keep on coming and threatening and PA has to bow down everytime... maybe we should shelve our Army altogether and seek some other way of defending ourselves. The status quo will be the same if US decides to send some choppers to Kahota. Is Pakistan worse off then North Korea and Iran? even after having nuclear deterrent.
 
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