Leaked report: Pakistan had 'major failures' during OBL incident

[Developereo]

First it is an assumption. Secondly if the assumption holds true and USA can keep on coming and threatening and PA has to bow down everytime... maybe we should shelve our Army altogether and seek some other way of defending ourselves. The status quo will be the same if US decides to send some choppers to Kahota. Is Pakistan worse off then North Korea and Iran? even after having nuclear deterrent.

Unfortunately, this is the reality.

If one accepts the premise that America's wider goal is to install India as the regional hegemon, to counter China, and that weakening Pakistan is part of that strategy, then America is itching for an opportunity to decimate Pakistan's military capability. However, keeping in mind domestic and international public opinion, such an operation would need some serious justification.

Pakistan military defending OBL would be just the thing to galvanize public opinion, domestic and international. Pakistan would be portrayed as being the same as Afghan Taliban after 9/11. The US didn't attack the Afghan Taliban because of their human rights record, or their views about women; they attacked them for sheltering OBL.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

"India would seize the opportunity to solidify gains. Pakistan would cease to exist as a country."
I don't think India want any land, say in Punjab. Sindh, KP or Balochistan. As for me, I will come to provide first aid.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...ures-during-obl-incident-9.html#ixzz2YjaLnbab

What I am saying is that, even if the Americans had notified the Pakistanis (assuming the report is true and they didn't), the American message would have been like the one right after 9/11:

"We are coming in. Either you get out of the way, or we will crush your military back to the stone age and do our mission anyway".

The reality is that Pakistan's military capability is nonexistent compared to the US. We can't even detect their choppers, let alone put up a fight against their heavy arsenal.



This raid was just like the drone strikes and, like those strikes, we can pick our poison: either we are complicit in the raids but don't want to acknowledge, for fear of further antagonizing the crazies, or we didn't know and couldn't do much against the US military machine anyway.



India is not the US.

The US can destroy Pakistan's entire military capability using just the carrier group in Bahrain. The rest of the US military doesn't even need to wake up. India cannot do so.

And the real fun would begin after the US had decimated Pakistan's military. All the crazies would start coming out of the woodwork. India would seize the opportunity to solidify gains. Pakistan would cease to exist as a country.

 

[Developereo]

"India would seize the opportunity to solidify gains. Pakistan would cease to exist as a country."
I don't think India want any land, say in Punjab. Sindh, KP or Balochistan. As for me, I will come to provide first aid.

India regards Azad Kashmir as an integral part of India. Officially, India has a border with Afghanistan.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Won't stop me from coming to organize aid

India regards Azad Kashmir as an integral part of India. Officially, India has a border with Afghanistan.

 

[Sedqal]

Unfortunately, this is the reality.

If one accepts the premise that America's wider goal is to install India as the regional hegemon, to counter China, and that weakening Pakistan is part of that strategy, then America is itching for an opportunity to decimate Pakistan's military capability. However, keeping in mind domestic and international public opinion, such an operation would need some serious justification.

Pakistan military defending OBL would be just the thing to galvanize public opinion, domestic and international. Pakistan would be portrayed as being the same as Afghan Taliban after 9/11. The US didn't attack the Afghan Taliban because of their human rights record, or their views about women; they attacked them for sheltering OBL.

I can't believe this. Pakistan is already being portrayed as a terrorist hub. America won't attack North Korea or Iran but would attack Pakistan just like that? not fearing a retaliation. What a defeatist attitude!

 

[Developereo]

I can't believe this. Pakistan is already being portrayed as a terrorist hub. America won't attack North Korea or Iran but would attack Pakistan just like that? not fearing a retaliation. What a defeatist attitude!

North Korea is a potential threat to South Korea and Japan, not the continental US.

Iran is purely an Israeli/Arab issue and the US response is for domestic politics and the Israeli lobby. Again, Iran is not a threat to the US in any way.

The situation with Pakistan, India and China is a core American strategic interest.

 

[Awesome]

What I am saying is that, even if the Americans had notified the Pakistanis (assuming the report is true and they didn't), the American message would have been like the one right after 9/11:

"We are coming in. Either you get out of the way, or we will crush your military back to the stone age and do our mission anyway".

The UNGA charter clearly defines the rights and responsibilities of every nation. If they attacked and we defended our city we would have been right, not wrong.

Look, this way the US can do anything in Pakistan - what is the point till we can rationalize bowing down to a superior military might? If Obama tells Zardari, I'm going to come and kill your children, the ultimatum is that we will destroy you and send you to the stone age - then what? Wouldn't he fight back no matter how unwinnable the situation is.

You know what you're saying is akin to saying Pakistan ko dissolve kardoh because we have no free will ultimately US can threaten us to do whatever it wants.

India is not the US.

It is a military might that is greater than yours. If tomorrow India sends its troops, we will rationalize it the same way and let them run all over us. Defeat is a mindset, that Americans embeded in us when we accepted their May 2 attack on Pakistan and rationalized it to assuage our egos.

The US can destroy Pakistan's entire military capability using just the carrier group in Bahrain. The rest of the US military doesn't even need to wake up. India cannot do so.

India too can conquer Pakistan if it could accept the losses it would bear and given that our generals have now decided to pick and choose when they would defend and when they would just allow the foreign military to walk in, there is no guarantee India would even suffer any losses.

 

[Sedqal]

North Korea is a potential threat to South Korea and Japan, not the continental US.

Iran is purely an Israeli/Arab issue and the US response is for domestic politics and the Israeli lobby. Again, Iran is not a threat to the US in any way.

The situation with Pakistan, India and China is a core American strategic interest.

That is hogwash, Middle East remains the centre piece even today and Iran has influence there (specifically after Saddam). Plus its not only Pakistan as North Korea is also central to China equation.

All this talk seems to absolve PA's main duty of safeguarding Pakistan - so America can tomorrow try to take over nuclear installation and generals will keep on playing golf because if they retaliate we are history? I'd rather we become history then this sorry excuse of a state.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Unfortunately, this is the reality.

If one accepts the premise that America's wider goal is to install India as the regional hegemon, to counter China, and that weakening Pakistan is part of that strategy, then America is itching for an opportunity to decimate Pakistan's military capability. However, keeping in mind domestic and international public opinion, such an operation would need some serious justification.

Pakistan military defending OBL would be just the thing to galvanize public opinion, domestic and international. Pakistan would be portrayed as being the same as Afghan Taliban after 9/11. The US didn't attack the Afghan Taliban because of their human rights record, or their views about women; they attacked them for sheltering OBL.

The best way to decimate our military capability need not be by means of a direct confrontation. Starving the economy will do the job much easier. Oh wait, isn't that already happening? IF one accepts the premise you pose, that is, Sir.

 

[Developereo]

That is hogwash, Middle East remains the centre piece even today and Iran has influence there (specifically after Saddam). Plus its not only Pakistan as North Korea is also central to China equation.

Once again, Iran is not a threat to the US in any way.

America's issue with Iran is strictly on behalf of their regional allies, the Arabs and the Israelis. The US doesn't depend on ME oil to any significant extent (< 10%), and most of the oil producing countries are solidly in the American camp anyway.

All this talk seems to absolve PA's main duty of safeguarding Pakistan - so America can tomorrow try to take over nuclear installation and generals will keep on playing golf because if they retaliate we are history? I'd rather we become history then this sorry excuse of a state.

There is a difference between defending OBL and defending the nuclear assets or the country itself. As I wrote, the US would need international justification for attacking Pakistan. Excuses like OBL don't come along too often.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

........

There is a difference between defending OBL and defending the nuclear assets or the country itself. As I wrote, the US would need international justification for attacking Pakistan. Excuses like OBL don't come along too often.

Would creating a justification be too hard for USA?

 

[karan.1970]

There is a difference between defending OBL and defending the nuclear assets or the country itself. As I wrote, the US would need international justification for attacking Pakistan. Excuses like OBL don't come along too often.

How difficult would it be in today's scenario to demonstratea nuclear installation coming under attack by a 1000 people strong horde of TTP and USA deploying forces from Afghan bases to "help" Pakistan in securing the attacked site and the others as a precautionary measure. Given the US hold over intl media, I dont think this is as difficult as someone may thing

 

[Developereo]

If Obama tells Zardari, I'm going to come and kill your children, the ultimatum is that we will destroy you and send you to the stone age - then what?

The analogy doesn't sit; we are talking specifically about hunting OBL.

As I explained, the situation with OBL was reminiscent of 9/11. The US had international backing to hunt him down wherever he was in the world. More importantly, the US had unconditional domestic support for their actions against OBL. In fact, any US administration that was revealed to have let him off, knowing where he was, would be doomed.

The scenario is not hypothetical. As I mentioned, this is exactly what happened in 2001 in Afghanistan. The only difference is that this time the US would be attacking Pakistan, not Afghanistan, to hunt for OBL.

ndia too can conquer Pakistan if it could accept the losses

That's the whole point.

The US can destroy Pakistan with ZERO risk to the continental US.
For India, any victory would by Pyrrhic at best.

Would creating a justification be too hard for USA?

See below.

How difficult would it be in today's scenario to demonstratea nuclear installation coming under attack by a 1000 people strong horde of TTP and USA deploying forces from Afghan bases to "help" Pakistan in securing the attacked site and the others as a precautionary measure. Given the US hold over intl media, I dont think this is as difficult as someone may thing

The US public is war weary.

OBL was unfinished business and the memory of 9/11 is still strong. Any US administration practically had carte blanche to get him anywhere.

It would be hard to come up with a strong enough justification to get into a conflict with a nuclear armed state.

 

[muse]

T. Defeat is a mindset.

That the Pakistan Armed Forces can be forgiven for inculcating among Pakistanis? After all, which foreign adversary have they ever achieved victory over, they can't or rather are unwilling to even prevail over insurgents and sectarian terrorists, both of which were their own creations.

But the larger point you make about defeat, perhaps more Pakistanis should consider it.

 

[Jango]

The UNGA charter clearly defines the rights and responsibilities of every nation. If they attacked and we defended our city we would have been right, not wrong.

You aren't living in an ideal world...just like the drone issue.