Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

[VkdIndian]

I would love to have a kargil every month.. inch by inch peak by peak we will get the whole kashmir if kargils keep coming.

Kargil destroyed the reputation of Pakistan completely. It was a diplomatic fiasco too. A PM went running to US to help him save his nations face.

Read this account to know what it did to Pakistan.

Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made...

defence.pk

I wonder which nation would like to face this every month?

 

[VkdIndian]

kargil war showed the tactical prowess of Pakistani troops, stealthily entering enemy areas, entrenching themselves,

Display of prowess is for an end result. If the end result was a complete debacle, then that prowess has no meaning.
In WW II, Hitler created a massive force violating the terms of WW I. He surprised the entire world with his strategic and tactical prowess. He achieved massive battle wins too.
But, he is finally remembered as a looser.
If someone wants to remember Germany for changing the face of warfare and feel happy than that would still not give Germany a win.


While India had to learn a lot from Kargil, there were bigger lessons for Pakistan.

How not to plan an operation of such a scale while keeping your sister services and civilian government in the dark. Kaiser Tufail has clearly brought out what PAF was capable of during those times. There were scores of other lessons that have been well documented.

Like WW II, it was the end result that matters here.

Which was a complete military and diplomatic humiliation for Pakistan.

Did Pakistan win the 1965 war?

Yes. In propaganda.

1965: How Pakistan won the war of propaganda

For the past five decades, Pakistan has officially celebrated September 6 as ‘Defence Day’ in remembrance of its historic ‘victory’

nation.com.pk

You haven’t answered about the interviews that I had posted?
I guess your legs are still shaking.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Indian army was so ineffective in Kargil war, that even more that two decades after Pakistan lost Kargil peaks.

Pakistanis are still looking for a face saving (just like how its generals and politicians were looking for when the war was going on) , some times blaming US other times blaming its own elected government.

I am wondering how many Pakistanis on this thread are even aware whole of Kargil was under Pakistani control prior to 71

 

[VkdIndian]

Is that enough, or do you want know more.

It would be enough for anyone with a little bit of dignity and honour. A nation obsessed with portraying itself as a winner only through propaganda would never accept the facts.

We will still try and drill home the point. Hopefully, some of them would see the point and learn the facts.

 

[VkdIndian]

@Huffal you seem to be firmly in the grip of this thread. While you do think that you know quite a lot.
The fact that you have based your entire argument on few peaks shows that you Google something and paste it here without reading it.
You also seem to be very poorly read.
Since peaks are of great interest to you, do you even know the history of those peaks?

Your friend Parveen Sawhney didn’t tell you about that?

Ok. Read para 2.

Story Of Pakistan | The Story of Kargil

The Story of Kargil, In the summer of 1999, a 73-days military conflict was fought at Kargil unveiling new insights into an asymmetric conflict wherein opposing combatants

storyofpakistan.com

Still waiting for your response about the facts narrated by Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik and Nazam Sethi. List is long but these would do for the time being.

Kahin paer to nahin kaanp rahe?

 

[Signalian]

Display of prowess is for an end result. If the end result was a complete debacle, then that prowess has no meaning.
In WW II, Hitler created a massive force violating the terms of WW I. He surprised the entire world with his strategic and tactical prowess. He achieved massive battle wins too.
But, he is finally remembered as a looser.
If someone wants to remember Germany for changing the face of warfare and feel happy than that would still not give Germany a win.


While India had to learn a lot from Kargil, there were bigger lessons for Pakistan.

How not to plan an operation of such a scale while keeping your sister services and civilian government in the dark. Kaiser Tufail has clearly brought out what PAF was capable of during those times. There were scores of other lessons that have been well documented.

Like WW II, it was the end result that matters here.

Which was a complete military and diplomatic humiliation for Pakistan.

Yes. In propaganda.

1965: How Pakistan won the war of propaganda

For the past five decades, Pakistan has officially celebrated September 6 as ‘Defence Day’ in remembrance of its historic ‘victory’

nation.com.pk

You haven’t answered about the interviews that I had posted?
I guess your legs are still shaking.

End result has been controversial, as Pakistan and India both claim winning the Kargil war. The example of Hitler in WW2 is completely wrong and irrelevant. Pakistan didn't suffer Germany's fate.

Pakistan achieved an element of surprise through irregular troops who showed prowess in stealthiness, discipline and endurance to reach peaks with arms and ammunition, its not a small feat as such daring tasks are expected by Commandos, Special Forces, NAVY SEALS etc. Getting "Stinger on every peak" wasn't an easy task and it yielded results. 20 years later, Pakistan went in through PAF and completed mission successfully. So it seems India didnt learn anything from kargil war even when a clear cut official hint in news was given about a SURPRISE. On top of that IAF lost a fighter, two infact but i dont want to start an argument, there are many threads about IAF losing two fighters.

It proves that in a span of 20 years, India hadn't learnt how to handle surprises by Pakistan and IAF didnt learn how to counter PAF.

 

[VkdIndian]

End result has been controversial, as Pakistan and India both claim winning the Kargil war.

Pakistan claiming a win is mostly post facto.
Till recently each and every senior military officer from Pakistan clearly accepted Kargil as a fiasco and a defeat.

Example of WW II defeat of Germany was not w.r.t total defeat but to bring out the excellence in part during a conflict doesn’t mean that loss can change into a win. Pakistan did give a surprise to start the conflict. That’s it. From then on Pakistan kept getting surprises till Nawaz went to US.
PA leadership went wrong on each and every aspect of its assessment.

Pakistan achieved an element of surprise through irregular troops who showed prowess in stealthiness, discipline and endurance to reach peaks with arms and ammunition, its not a small feat as such daring tasks are expected by Commandos, Special Forces, NAVY SEALS etc. Getting "Stinger on every peak" wasn't an easy task and it yielded results. 20 years later, Pakistan went in through PAF and completed mission successfully. So it seems India didnt learn anything from kargil war even when a clear cut official hint in news was given about a SURPRISE. On top of that IAF lost a fighter, two infact but i dont want to start an argument, there are many threads about IAF losing two fighters.

Pulwama and the events on 26 Feb have changed the dynamics in the region completely. Pulwama has made it clear that India wouldn’t accept any meddling of Pakistan in Kashmir.
Argument about who lost what is a long one and there are many threads regarding that. So I too wouldn’t touch upon this subject.

I have already accept that Pakistan army was successful in giving surprise during Kargil.
But that’s the end of story. Everything else about that operation from Pakistani side was a complete failure.
While planning an operation logistics, escalation, politico-economic aspects etc are integral part of the assessment. None of these were done. Keeping the sister services in the dark was an extremely stupid idea. Keeping the PM in the dark made Pakistan a laughing stock across the globe. The fact that PAF completely disowned that operation doesn’t sound like a successful campaign to me. Forget about the navy.
Now, these are not my imaginative jumps.
This is what has been said by each and every senior Pakistani military officer except Musharraf.

It proves that in a span of 20 years, India hadn't learnt how to handle surprises by Pakistan and IAF didnt learn how to counter PAF.

Was there a PAF response during Kargil?

Kaiser Tufail has written a comprehensive account of what PAF was doing and what it was capable of during Kargil.

 

[Signalian]

Pakistan claiming a win is mostly post facto.
Till recently each and every senior military officer from Pakistan clearly accepted Kargil as a fiasco and a defeat.

Example of WW II defeat of Germany was not w.r.t total defeat but to bring out the excellence in part during a conflict doesn’t mean that loss can change into a win. Pakistan did give a surprise to start the conflict. That’s it. From then on Pakistan kept getting surprises till Nawaz went to US.
PA leadership went wrong on each and every aspect of its assessment.



Pulwama and the events on 26 Feb have changed the dynamics in the region completely. Pulwama has made it clear that India wouldn’t accept any meddling of Pakistan in Kashmir.
Argument about who lost what is a long one and there are many threads regarding that. So I too wouldn’t touch upon this subject.

I have already accept that Pakistan army was successful in giving surprise during Kargil.
But that’s the end of story. Everything else about that operation from Pakistani side was a complete failure.
While planning an operation logistics, escalation, politico-economic aspects etc are integral part of the assessment. None of these were done. Keeping the sister services in the dark was an extremely stupid idea. Keeping the PM in the dark made Pakistan a laughing stock across the globe. The fact that PAF completely disowned that operation doesn’t sound like a successful campaign to me. Forget about the navy.
Now, these are not my imaginative jumps.
This is what has been said by each and every senior Pakistani military officer except Musharraf.



Was there a PAF response during Kargil?

Kaiser Tufail has written a comprehensive account of what PAF was doing and what it was capable of during Kargil.

The reason WW2 example and all the points you mentioned about PA Kargil action are irrelevant because Pakistan Army and PAF both joined hands in 2019 and again surprised Indian Military, means that Pakistani leadership and military had adapted and improvised after 1999. You also mentioned lessons from Kargil war, its evident in 2019 that Pakistani Military came on top while Indian Military didnt learn anything from kargil. Pakistan didnt repeat the planning structure or implementation or diplomatic corner from Kargil.

India till today cannot handle known and un-known surprises by Pakistan.

 

[Jackdaws]

Lol what did we lose? U lost loads of men, u lost jet helis and territory. What did we lose?

The actual war

 

[VkdIndian]

Pakistan Army and PAF both joined hands in 2019 and again surprised Indian Military, means that Pakistani leadership and military had adapted and improvised after 1999.

The bigger element of surprise was displayed by India. India completely changed the dynamics and made it clear that threshold has gone higher.
You want to see from Pakistan’s perspective, I see it from the Indian.

India till today cannot handle known and un-known surprises by Pakistan.

Someone wants to be happy with surprises then it is fine with me.

If someone can achieve credible results rather than giving surprises would be of more value.

I don’t know where to place Siachen and 1971, but surprise or otherwise they have had much bigger outcome than anything else.

Very succinctly put by this guy.

 

[The Maverick]

amazing how Pakistanis spin a defeat and withdrawal with loss of entire regiment dead as a victory.

the acres of footage mirages and bofars smashing the pak military in kargil with not a single paf fighter.nearby and they don't even collect their martyred soldiers

they lost a entirel country in 10.days with 100000 soldiers captured in 71
yet typical Pakistani mindset it was stalemate or did.not happen

 

[Jackdaws]

Is this a new trend though? I've for years heard Pakistanis thinking they won in 1965. When did this new narrative of Kargil emerge?

The reason WW2 example and all the points you mentioned about PA Kargil action are irrelevant because Pakistan Army and PAF both joined hands in 2019 and again surprised Indian Military, means that Pakistani leadership and military had adapted and improvised after 1999. You also mentioned lessons from Kargil war, its evident in 2019 that Pakistani Military came on top while Indian Military didnt learn anything from kargil. Pakistan didnt repeat the planning structure or implementation or diplomatic corner from Kargil.

India till today cannot handle known and un-known surprises by Pakistan.

If the surprise couldn't be handled, why did Sartaz Aziz run to Jaswant and then Sharif run to Clinton? Seems to me the response to the surprise couldn't be handled.

 

[The Maverick]

Is this a new trend though? I've for years heard Pakistanis thinking they won in 1965. When did this new narrative of Kargil emerge?

they are trying to rewrite history

recently I saw one idiot suggesting the Indian.ocean needs to be renamed to something else. their insecurity is laughable and sad

 

[Signalian]

The bigger element of surprise was displayed by India. India completely changed the dynamics and made it clear that threshold has gone higher.
You want to see from Pakistan’s perspective, I see it from the Indian.



Someone wants to be happy with surprises then it is fine with me.

If someone can achieve credible results rather than giving surprises would be of more value.

I don’t know where to place Siachen and 1971, but surprise or otherwise they have had much bigger outcome than anything else.

Very succinctly put by this guy.

India knew, Infact IAF knew that PAF was coming. It was officially told. Instead of shooting down PAF's aircraft, IAF got its aircrafts shot down. The indian AD system shot down own SAR chopper. That's not changing dynamics, its blunder after blunder in panicky situation. PAF exposed IAF's inability to handle crisis situation. Even with expected retaliatory action, India couldn't handle Pakistan's strike . The events from 1999 and even from before, kept making Pakistani Military stronger against India. India cannot cope up with surprises from Pakistan.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Was there a PAF response during Kargil?

Kaiser Tufail has written a comprehensive account of what PAF was doing and what it was capable of during Kargil.

PAF didn't have any BVR at the time of Kargil but you have it (R-77), that's why PAF had a limited role in Kargil

the acres of footage mirages and bofars smashing the pak military in kargil with not a single paf fighter.

PAF didn't have any BVR at the time of Kargil but you have it (R-77), that's why PAF had a limited role in Kargil

they lost a entirel country in 10.days with 100000 soldiers captured in 71

lol now 100,000, actual figures of captured PA soldiers in 71 were 43,000 rest were civilians from neutral sources
With minimal PAF/PN assets in East Pakistan PA had no Chance against you, you're backed by then superpower Soviet Union supplying you their latest weapons and Vetoed all resolutions of ceasefire during the war in UN, you're supplying arms and aminations to Mukhti Bahanis

And we were weak and internationally alone in 71

and last can i ask question from you

WHY YOU INTERFERED IN OUR INTERNAL MATTERS IN 71?

they are trying to rewrite history

recently I saw one idiot suggesting the Indian.ocean needs to be renamed to something else. their insecurity is laughable and sad

THERE WAS NO WIN OR LOSE IN 65