Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

[prothought]

It was a success because Pakistan lost that war.

The side that looses is called a looser and the other side is called the winner.

Hence, it was a success.

@Huffal you can go round and round in circles but the fact remains one and only one, which I have stated earlier.

Interview of Mushahid Hussain, a minister in the government during Kargil fiasco of Pakistan.
Listen to it and see for yourself the story of lies, deceit, treachery and backstabbing. More you open your mouth, more of it will be posted here to remind you of that failure.

Yes, I watched it. In this video he says the civilian government was unaware of the operation an that it was a like a shock for the civilian government. He also laments the lack of institutional decision making in Pakistan. He then talks about the Pak casualties especially while retreating and that there was a lot of anger in military's middle and higher echelons against that retreat ordered by the civilian government. He also talks about the visit by Vajpayee. But nowhere he says that Pakistan was defeated militarily or even Indian forces were able to or going to evict Pakistani men. How then you can have this silly claim that India defeated Pakistan comprehensively. Like most of the brainless Indians you are lying and shamelessly so - again an Indian trait. We have many of the liberated peaks still with us as of now and that's what you call India defeating Pakistan comprehensively.

Indians in fact claim to have defeated Pakistan in all wars fought so far between the two coutries. Even I have seen some idiots who claim India defeated Pak on 27 Feb 2019 too. No vonders you're claiming repeatedly that India comprehensively defeated Pakistan during Kargal war.

Sometimes I wonder how low souls you Indians are. I mean, your country, population, and economy are ten times bigger than ours. Your leaders have been trying to undo Pakistan since 1947. You have tried all strategies, means, and resources to achieve your goal. You attacked us to fight several wars (yes, don't falsely claim that Pakistan started every single war between the two countries - it doesn't really matter for this discussion in any case), you tried to choke our waters and our exports, you created massive fake propaganda houses/sites to spread lies against us at massive scale in the whole world, you ignited and supported several insurgencies in Pakistan, and you acted as feet-licking dogs for the USSR and Nato to do dirty work in Afghanistan. Still your are here to desprately lie and lick your wounds. Your forefahers died with their wish to undo Pakistan and you will go to your chittah having the same wish burried in your chest only to burn in fire.

 

[VkdIndian]

India knew, Infact IAF knew that PAF was coming. It was officially told. Instead of shooting down PAF's aircraft, IAF got its aircrafts shot down. The indian AD system shot down own SAR chopper. That's not changing dynamics, its blunder after blunder in panicky situation. PAF exposed IAF's inability to handle crisis situation. Even with expected retaliatory action, India couldn't handle Pakistan's strike . The events from 1999 and even from before, kept making Pakistani Military stronger against India. India cannot cope up with surprises from Pakistan.

You are completely mixing up two different events. Creating confusion between two events wouldn’t change the outcome of either of them. I have no issues discussing post-Pulwama events but let’s sort out this thread before we go in appropriate thread to discuss post-Pulwama.

I have accepted that Pakistan had the element of surprise during Kargil. It had time and element of surprise in hand.

But the end result of Kargil didn’t go to the one who had the element of surprise.

The events from 1999 and even from before, kept making Pakistani Military stronger against India.

The claim Pakistan has been only getting stronger and stronger and has nenevr had any weakness. A jingoistic claim. I wouldn’t get into it because it would soon turn into you said vs I said.

India cannot cope up with surprises from Pakistan.

India sorted out Pakistan in Kargil after the surprise element. So your statement is incorrect.

PAF didn't have any BVR at the time of Kargil but you have it (R-77), that's why PAF had a limited role in Kargil

I agree. Smart decision by the PAF. It would have been clobbered, had it tried to get into the conflict directly.

Yes, I watched it. In this video he says the civilian government was unaware of the operation an that it was a like a shock for the civilian government. He also laments the lack of institutional decision making in Pakistan. He then talks about the Pak casualties especially while retreating and that there was a lot of anger in military's middle and higher echelons against that retreat ordered by the civilian government.

You are right. I didn’t post this video to bring out your defeat. It was to bring out exactly what you brought out and some more. One aspect that you missed out is that Pakistan is obsessed with India and is desperate to claim a victory somehow.

Since you wanted to know who said about Pakistan’s loss, here is the link. All these people are highly placed Pakistanis. If you want,I can post some more.

Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

Pakistan has kashmir ? or siachen ? is it even on siachen ? Can Indians even hoist their flag in down town Srinagar or its all still staged inside a secure stadium. :lol:

defence.pk

Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

Pakistan has kashmir ? or siachen ? is it even on siachen ? Can Indians even hoist their flag in down town Srinagar or its all still staged inside a secure stadium. :lol:

defence.pk

Sometimes I wonder how low souls you Indians are. I mean, your country, population, and economy are ten times bigger than ours. Your leaders have been trying to undo Pakistan since 1947. You have tried all strategies, means, and resources to achieve your goal. You attacked us to fight several wars (yes, don't falsely claim that Pakistan started every single war between the two countries - it doesn't really matter for this discussion in any case), you tried to choke our waters and our exports, you created massive fake propaganda houses/sites to spread lies against us at massive scale in the whole world, you ignited and supported several insurgencies in Pakistan, and you acted as feet-licking dogs for the USSR and Nato to do dirty work in Afghanistan. Still your are here to desprately lie and lick your wounds. Your forefahers died with their wish to undo Pakistan and you will go to your chittah having the same wish burried in your chest only to burn in fire.

Meaningless gibberish. Not related to the thread. Don’t combine all your hatred to one post.
If you feel that an incorrect claim has been made by anyone, please post your disagreements there rather than regurgitating like this.

 

[prothought]

You are right. I didn’t post this video to bring out your defeat. It was to bring out exactly what you brought out and some more. One aspect that you missed out is that Pakistan is obsessed with India and is desperate to claim a victory somehow.

Since you wanted to know who said about Pakistan’s loss, here is the link. All these people are highly placed Pakistanis. If you want,I can post some more.

Oh, yeah, Pakistan is obsessed with India? Right? Dude, it's in fact just opposite. You Indians are not obsessed with Pakistan. You Indians are excessively obsessed with Pakistan. Look at your domestics politics. Hate towards Pakistan is a winning factor in Indian general elections. And this factor has been consistently and widely used in India. Look at your TV shows. You'll see Indians acting like mad dogs with foam coming out of their mouth while talking against Pakistan. Look at the state visits by Indian leaders to other countries and other leaders visiting India. Every single joint statement has a direct or indirect reference to Pakistan. Any time we have a military deal with any other country, Indians start venting their sh!t from their mouths. It looks like you Indians are burning in the heat of hate against Pakistan.

Now look at Pakistan. No one really bothers even mentioning India or Indians in our election campaigns. India and Indians are not worth it for us. Look at the joint statements issued after state visits by Pakistani or foreign leaders? Just show me one where we are crying against India like Indians do against in their joint statements. You're importing weapon systems from all over the world, we never resorted to begging against those deals like Indian do when we procure any weapon system.

Talking lies doesn't change facts. Don't lie at this forum, you Pakistan-obsessed Indian.

 

[VkdIndian]

Oh, yeah, Pakistan is obsessed with India? Right? Dude, it's in fact just opposite.

Don’t get angry on me. That was the assessment made by that guy in the video. In fact quite a lot of international sources think the same. And I agree with them.

You'll see Indians acting like mad dogs with foam coming out of their mouth while talking against Pakistan.

Right now foam seems to be coming out of your mouth. So just relax. This is not a TV debate. You can put across your point so do I. No need to get overtly excited.

Now look at Pakistan. No one really bothers even mentioning India or Indians in our election campaigns. India and Indians are not worth it for us. Look at the joint statements issued after state visits by Pakistani or foreign leaders?

You know how many times your leaders held a press conference after 26 Feb to declare that India is about to attack Pakistan based on a false flag? You know what used to be main agenda of IK whenever he went abroad anywhere? India, India and India.
Recently he realised that Modi is ignoring him and has stopped mentioning India.

You're importing weapon systems from all over the world, we never resorted to begging against those deals like Indian do when we procure any weapon system.

That’s not called begging. That’s called leveraging your position.
No one likes beggars in this world.

Talking lies doesn't change facts. Don't lie at this forum, you Pakistan-obsessed Indian.

This thread has been created to spread a lie. Which I can’t allow.
Unlike some of your countrymen who only make bombastic statements and lie all the time without any evidence, I have put up humongous amount of sources that confirm that Pakistan lost Kargil quite badly.
All the sources that I have quoted are Senior Pakistan Army officers, Senate members, Senior Journalists and reputed international think tanks.
Sadly, all these guys have been avoiding these videos and proofs.

Getting angry and blaming me wouldn’t help. If you disagree with me then you can post material to make your case.
One request though - Unlike your other brothers don’t derail the thread. Remain on topic.

 

[Tornado23]

@Huffal you seem to be firmly in the grip of this thread. While you do think that you know quite a lot.
The fact that you have based your entire argument on few peaks shows that you Google something and paste it here without reading it.
You also seem to be very poorly read.
Since peaks are of great interest to you, do you even know the history of those peaks?

Your friend Parveen Sawhney didn’t tell you about that?

Ok. Read para 2.

Story Of Pakistan | The Story of Kargil

The Story of Kargil, In the summer of 1999, a 73-days military conflict was fought at Kargil unveiling new insights into an asymmetric conflict wherein opposing combatants

storyofpakistan.com

Still waiting for your response about the facts narrated by Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik and Nazam Sethi. List is long but these would do for the time being.

Kahin paer to nahin kaanp rahe?

This is getting way to hilarious.

Where to start?

Well for starters you are still avoiding my question of how was op vijay a success. The closest we got was you screeching 'because pakistan lost'.

How did Pakistan lose? How did you win? We have 4 of the peaks today. We still patrol them? How does that make it a victory for India?

Now. Your source and paragraph. Are you that dumb not to see the folly of your own argument?

All that source said (para 2.) was that India took and retained kargil during the 71 war? Ok we know that, if we didn't then the kargil war wouldn't have happened.

Also we took the chamb from you in 1971 as well and hold it today. But anyways...

So that means kargil is Indian territory, and since we hold 4 peaks including the most important peak, that being 5353 inside in territory, wouldn't that mean we have gained land? No matter how small we gained land. Land that you tried to take back via op vijay but couldnt


And if your objective was to take back the peaks but you couldn't complete it, then that means it was a failure.

Also recognise your casualties of the war.

Allah hafiz

 

[Tornado23]

amazing how Pakistanis spin a defeat and withdrawal with loss of entire regiment dead as a victory.

the acres of footage mirages and bofars smashing the pak military in kargil with not a single paf fighter.nearby and they don't even collect their martyred soldiers

they lost a entirel country in 10.days with 100000 soldiers captured in 71
yet typical Pakistani mindset it was stalemate or did.not happen

What the hell?

Ok my dude you yourself have destroyed your own credibility by saying you captured 100k pakistanis soldiers. Its evident we only had 34000 regulars with another 11k to 12k irregulars. At most 55k including regulars, irregulars, and non combatants

What are you smoking?

 

[VkdIndian]

This is getting way to hilarious.

Yes it is. Considering you have refused to answer to any of your own Generals claim does make it hilarious.

How did Pakistan lose? How did you win? We have 4 of the peaks today. We still patrol them? How does that make it a victory for India?

Now. Your source and paragraph. Are you that dumb not to see the folly of your own argument?

All that source said (para 2.) was that India took and retained kargil during the 71 war? Ok we know that, if we didn't then the kargil war wouldn't have happened.

Also we took the chamb from you in 1971 as well and hold it today. But anyways...

So that means kargil is Indian territory, and since we hold 4 peaks including the most important peak, that being 5353 inside in territory, wouldn't that mean we have gained land? No matter how small we gained land. Land that you tried to take back via op vijay but couldnt


And if your objective was to take back the peaks but you couldn't complete it, then that means it was a failure.

Pakistan lost due to factors analysed very nicely here.

Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made...

defence.pk

I don’t know why you are unable to see the failure.
Indian casualties were accepted as soon as the war got over.

Pakistan firstly didn’t accept that thier regulars were fighting. Then they accepted. The dead were honoured after many years. All these aspects have been clearly brought out in the videos of your own generals. Please have a look at them. You also might feel a little cringy after that. It was disgraceful behaviour.

Have you listened to your Lt Gen‘s video that brings out this shameful treachery?

 

[GiG]

Yes it is. Considering you have refused to answer to any of your own Generals claim does make it hilarious.

Pakistan lost due to factors analysed very nicely here.

Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made...

defence.pk

I don’t know why you are unable to see the failure.
Indian casualties were accepted as soon as the war got over.

Pakistan firstly didn’t accept that thier regulars were fighting. Then they accepted. The dead were honoured after many years. All these aspects have been clearly brought out in the videos of your own generals. Please have a look at them. You also might feel a little cringy after that. It was disgraceful behaviour.

Have you listened to your Lt Gen‘s video that brings out this shameful treachery?

His stupidity has no limits, the fact is India deployed around 30000 personal with full air support against 5000 Pakistani personals and still failed to achieve anything militarily. Even at the end of the conflict, Pakistan is still occupying the highest peak, and they think they achieved something?

 

[Tornado23]

Yes it is. Considering you have refused to answer to any of your own Generals claim does make it hilarious.

Pakistan lost due to factors analysed very nicely here.

Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made...

defence.pk

I don’t know why you are unable to see the failure.
Indian casualties were accepted as soon as the war got over.

Pakistan firstly didn’t accept that thier regulars were fighting. Then they accepted. The dead were honoured after many years. All these aspects have been clearly brought out in the videos of your own generals. Please have a look at them. You also might feel a little cringy after that. It was disgraceful behaviour.

Have you listened to your Lt Gen‘s video that brings out this shameful treachery?

He did not explain how Pakistan failed its objectives though.

What was pakistans objective?

To gain an overwatch, shell and cut off NH1A to disrupt enemy supplies to siachen. Was this achieved? Yes. Through out the war we shelled the nh1a and through point 5353 alone we can still do it today should the need arise.

What was india's objective?

To retake ALL the peaks occupied by Pakistan and to expel pakistan mil presence from the area.

Was this achieved?

No

4 out of the 8 peaks still remain under pak army control

They are still being patrolled today. Is it so hard for you to grasp the concept that you did not achieve your objectives in the kargil debacle?

As for casualties... You really didn't accept them all

Enjoy

Disclosing Kargil casualties would affect morale of troops: CIC

The disclosure of information related to casualties suffered by army during Kargil war and number of terrorists killed cannot be made public, Central Information Commission has held in an order 14 years after the war.

zeenews.india.com

 

[Tornado23]

His stupidity has no limits, the fact is India deployed around 30000 personal with full air support against 5000 Pakistani personals and still failed to achieve anything militarily. Even at the end of the conflict, Pakistan is still occupying the highest peak, and they think they achieved something?

The man hasn't declared the objective of Pakistan, which was to disrupt supplies to siachen through shelling nh1a. That was done throughout the war. It was shelled. We can still shell it today as point 5353 gives us overwatch of the highway

 

[Tornado23]

Yes it is. Considering you have refused to answer to any of your own Generals claim does make it hilarious.

Pakistan lost due to factors analysed very nicely here.

Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

Indian newspapers and their public believe--or say they believe--that the conflict in Dras-Kargil last year was a military victory for India. In fact, it was a war 'won' by briefings and a slavishly supportive media. The Indian public wanted to be assured of 'victory,' and every effort was made...

defence.pk

I don’t know why you are unable to see the failure.
Indian casualties were accepted as soon as the war got over.

Pakistan firstly didn’t accept that thier regulars were fighting. Then they accepted. The dead were honoured after many years. All these aspects have been clearly brought out in the videos of your own generals. Please have a look at them. You also might feel a little cringy after that. It was disgraceful behaviour.

Have you listened to your Lt Gen‘s video that brings out this shameful treachery?

Also here. Someone has already refuted your video claim.

Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

It was a success because Pakistan lost that war. The side that looses is called a looser and the other side is called the winner. Hence, it was a success. @Huffal you can go round and round in circles but the fact remains one and only one, which I have stated earlier. Interview of Mushahid...

defence.pk

 

[VkdIndian]

Also here. Someone has already refuted your video claim.

Don’t be in a hurry to post. You didn’t even read his comments. It was a lame attempt .

Why don’t you try it once.
Unless paer kaanp rahe hai.

You have still not commented that how does your opinion hold more weightage than
Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik and Nazam Sethi.

 

[Tornado23]

Don’t be in a hurry to post. You didn’t even read his comments. It was a lame attempt .

Why don’t you try it once.
Unless paer kaanp rahe hai.

You have still not commented that how does your opinion hold more weightage than
Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik and Nazam Sethi.

Considering how you didn't even reply to his post speaks volumes about the stuff you know.

Go on. Refute what he said and refute what I said.

I will keep stating the facts

We hold 4 peaks today

We still patrol them

How is operation vijay a success

 

[GiG]

The man hasn't declared the objective of Pakistan, which was to disrupt supplies to siachen through shelling nh1a. That was done throughout the war. It was shelled. We can still shell it today as point 5353 gives us overwatch of the highway

Not just shelling this highest point provide Pakistanis direct 250km line of sight communication interception and reception. We can cut their supply lines as well as block and jam their radio communication in the valley at will

 

[Tornado23]

Not just shelling this highest point provide Pakistanis direct 250km line of sight communication interception and reception. We can cut their supply lines as well as block and jam their radio communication in the valley at will [emoji854]

There was once an Indian on reddit that tried to dismiss our control of point 5353 by saying it won't last long when hit by a cruise missile.... [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]