JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[IPL5]

NO.. Indian diplomacy on that front failed since the RD-93 is sold first to China.. then to us.
And the Russians do not wish to offend China.

this may be right in peace time but during war, there is no guarantee. Russia won't offend India for sure

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev

"I'm not disclosing a state secret but when I visited India four days after the Mumbai terror attacks I told them (the government)...we are ready to provide weapons, modern technology and know-how," said the dynamic 45-year-old President.

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times

jf-17 is as risky as f-16.

 

[Donatello]

this may be right in peace time but during war, there is no guarantee. Russia won't offend India for sure

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev



Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times

jf-17 is as risky as f-16.

No, JF-17 is not at all as risky. PAF bought extra number of RD93s for just this purpose.

Please stop posting what you see in your dreams.

Thanks.

 

[IPL5]

No, JF-17 is not at all as risky. PAF bought extra number of RD93s for just this purpose.

Please stop posting what you see in your dreams.

Thanks.

how many you have purchased ?

can anyone tell how much maintenance time is required for jf 17 for every hour of flying. I heard that f-16 needs 8 hrs of maintenance for every hour of flying.

 

[Storm Force]

Oranzib.

Good post esp about the indian LOBBY in WASHINGTON something which i have mentioned before myself on numerous occasions.

However re your post

JF-17 is probably the best decision made by PAF. Time will prove it when in next Ten years, PAC will design a fighter and related technologies on its own, it's just a matter of a few years.

This is not just about matter of time.

Its more to do with the BUILDING of the infrastucture first. SOMETHING that the indians found to be very costly and very time consuming.

Ultimately it comes down to R & D finance how much can you spend ???

 

[TAC]

this may be right in peace time but during war, there is no guarantee. Russia won't offend India for sure

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev



Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times

jf-17 is as risky as f-16.

I am sorry but this is very much a case of trying to make the best of a bad job. If India had succeeded in stopping the export of engines from Russia for the JF-17 -- that would indeed have meant something. Having failed to do that -- to now suggest that the JF-17 is somehow risky because Russia may pull the plug during war time is far too little and far too late.
In a nuclear backdrop - how long do you think a war -- even if possible (bearing in mind that 2 nuclear powers have never gone to full war in the entire history ) will last to make a stop in engine supplies have any effect??
The whole issue is a mute point anyway as China is already flight testing its indigenous WS-13 engine on the JF-17. At the recent Turkish Airshow, on the JF-17 specification board next to the pwerplant it reads 'RD-93 - WS-13'.
Having dealt with the engine issue -- in his recent special feature on the JF-17, Alan Wasrnes stated that there was a clear road map in place to gradualy increase local Pakistani production input into the JF-17 to 100%. Sorry but there is no way this aircraft can be called as risky as the F-16 which is made 100% in the U.S.

 

[Viper0011.]

Oranzib.

Its more to do with the BUILDING of the infrastucture first. SOMETHING that the indians found to be very costly and very time consuming.

Ultimately it comes down to R & D finance how much can you spend ???

I'd have to be honest here so no offense to my Indian friends. Two things:
1) How much can you spend: the answer is how much did India think it can spend lavishly on Rafale or MKI back in 1990's?? Economy took off and now you have the money. Looking at the big ticket industry and their plans and having a good grasp on world politics and economy related matters, I can tell you that Pakistan needs about 3 - 5 years of Peace & Stability. You'll be surprised as to how much they'll be able to spend. To respond to MKI, they actually don't need extensive R&D, they buy R&D'd work from China and use that design. It is no different than what you guys did with Israel, France and the US for LCA & the future MCA.

2) Building of infrastructure and something that Indians found hard to do: Again, no offense, but India's never known to be good at infrastructure, R&D and new technology / designs. India's core competency's always been educated people for cheap who can speak English irrespective of how that sounds, but it's better than a lot of other countries and cost is a huge plus.
But this will change in the future as there is a ton of help and investment flowing into India but it'll take about 8 - 10 more years when India will be able to start producing indigenous designs for pretty much anything hi-tech. I'd leave it at that and please, this is not an attempt to tick anyone off. I am just stating the truth. I have a lot of Indian friends and coworkers so I don't look at people from an Indian vs. Pakistani standpoint. You have to be objective and be able to take the other party's point objectively. So this is my fact based statement.

 

[Beast]

I wont call it exactly a failure.

It can be more precisely to the American behaviour of selling weapons to Arabs and but reserving the superior items to Israel.

RD-93 is basically a downgraded version of the latest RD-33 series 3 (rumored to have been again upgraded to RD-33 MK) we are license building in Koraput.

HAHA.. ANother indian trying to save face after being refuted by your long time allies who decide to join the Chinese camp by offering to re export RD-93 engine despite protest from India. Even PM Singh last min attempt prove futile..

So now you come here and claim RD-93 is downgrade of RD-33? Or you want to claim RD-93 has only max thrust of 1000kg and is flying like a C-130 transport plane to make you feel better?

 

[Najam Khan]

Anybody with any update on third squadron. We need a good news from somewhere. April has gone way too tragic so far

Not much on it. Its shaping up at Kamra along with 16 MR Sqn. Apparently PAF has increased the squadron strength which is causing delay. The good thing is that the financial issues have been sorted out at PAC

 

[farhan_9909]

third squarden within this or next month as per a high rank official

 

[Bratva]

Not much on it. Its shaping up at Kamra along with 16 MR Sqn. Apparently PAF has increased the squadron strength which is causing delay. The good thing is that the financial issues have been sorted out at PAC

financial issues w.r.t to raising of a new squadron or financial issues w.r.t to manufacturing of Block-2?

 

[Storm Force]

Orangzib..

re your post

I'd have to be honest here so no offense to my Indian friends. Two things:
1) How much can you spend: the answer is how much did India think it can spend lavishly on Rafale or MKI back in 1990's?? Economy took off and now you have the money. Looking at the big ticket industry and their plans and having a good grasp on world politics and economy related matters, I can tell you that Pakistan needs about 3 - 5 years of Peace & Stability. You'll be surprised as to how much they'll be able to spend.

No offence taken. From this indian

Now my turn.

Please dont take offence

Pakistan GDP of $200 billion growing for 5 years IS totaly differenmt to a INDIAN GDP $2 trillion growin at the same pace.

simple maths would argue IT WILL NOT be enough to spend lavishly on big ticket items as you seem to suggest.

ULTIMATELY the base economy is FAR TOO SMALL

 

[Najam Khan]

financial issues w.r.t to raising of a new squadron or financial issues w.r.t to manufacturing of Block-2?

I was referring to the latter one and PAC in general. There are no financial issues in raising a new Sqn, 25 TA Sqn moved to Rafiqui in 2010, all they had do was to re-innovate the place and plan some postings.

 

[Viper0011.]

Orangzib..
Pakistan GDP of $200 billion growing for 5 years IS totaly differenmt to a INDIAN GDP $2 trillion growin at the same pace.

simple maths would argue IT WILL NOT be enough to spend lavishly on big ticket items as you seem to suggest.

ULTIMATELY the base economy is FAR TOO SMALL

I don't think I was doing a comparison....common sense tells me 1.1 Billion consumers vs. 200 Million in Pak...there is no comparison from a market potential and volume's standpoint. One thing I find interesting within folks from India is that sometimes, it seems difficult to make a common sense point. The BRAIN POWER between people of South Asia is the SAME. So by no means India or another country is superior in labor as the genes are the same. India got lucky due to it's sheer volume and availability of cheap talent and policies. Otherwise I am well aware of internal household debates in India from the 90's where people used to wonder what'll happen in the future and how such a large population will survive the poverty. Then IT boom came in and things change. Similarly Pakistan is the SIXTH largest population with significant Gold, Cole and other minerals in stock (if the bas-turds in the gov't can use these assets for people's benefit)

So, if you take a look at the population of US (330 Mil) or at a lower level to Brazil or Indonesia or Russia or South Korea, the population size can be compared but not the GDP yet obviously. So, it tells me that if the economy grows and becomes over half of Brazil's or South Korea's or Indonesia's or Russia's, I don't see why pumping 5-8 billion per year more into the defense. industry would be an issue. Pak can never match India plane by plane or person by person. It can however introduce new generation procurements in enough numbers to defend itself properly.
JFT is an example of that. Block III will be different in comparison.

I don't care what someone says, I'd rather deploy a decent platform in numbers that I can afford and it can fire at will vs. either 30 year old planes that'll have issues, or a more expensive platform where either I am paying money to someone else or there is a chance that it won't fire or even fly when needed due to sanctions. A gun is a gun, you can take the chance of standing in front of it thinking it's inferior and it 'may' misfire or you keep yourself at bay with your fancy gun as you fear losses. Hope this helps.
Pakistan's first priority now should be to advance JFT with a more powerful engine, BVR and produce electronics in house. AND master SD-10 / BVR technology and employ it in large numbers as SAM / ABM through modified platform of Shaheen 1.

 

[Viper0011.]

Orangzib

Re your post

I see your closely following indengious weapons development accross the border

You mentioned

More powerful engine = IAF kaveri project with snecma of france
BVR = Astra BVR for TEJAS
SAM = Akash already deployed and Spyder mk2 being developed with Israel
ABM = PRITHVI tested already to be operational by 2015 on a modified platform from prithvi SRBM

Read my above post and both of them for that matter, (in fact other members should too). I see what you are doing, you are posting stupid crap underneath my posts so other member ignore my post and jump on to your and that way, they won't read critical facts mentioned in my post. Smart but not very smart.

BTW, No, I wasn't even thinking of Idian-French-Israeli-Russian "Indigenous" designs. There is nothing that India has that's Indigenous or will be for next ten years. It's purchased and borrowed technology. India's doesn't have the capability and was never known to be the inventor of advance designs, it's just known for cheap educated labor. So remember that difference.

 

[PakShaheen79]

So, if you take a look at the population of US (330 Mil) or at a lower level to Brazil or Indonesia or Russia or South Korea, the population size can be compared but not the GDP yet obviously. So, it tells me that if the economy grows and becomes over half of Brazil's or South Korea's or Indonesia's or Russia's, I don't see why pumping 5-8 billion per year more into the defense. industry would be an issue. Pak can never match India plane by plane or person by person. It can however introduce new generation procurements in enough numbers to defend itself properly.
JFT is an example of that. Block III will be different in comparison.

I don't care what someone says, I'd rather deploy a decent platform in numbers that I can afford and it can fire at will vs. either 30 year old planes that'll have issues, or a more expensive platform where either I am paying money to someone else or there is a chance that it won't fire or even fly when needed due to sanctions. A gun is a gun, you can take the chance of standing in front of it thinking it's inferior and it 'may' misfire or you keep yourself at bay with your fancy gun as you fear losses. Hope this helps.
Pakistan's first priority now should be to advance JFT with a more powerful engine, BVR and produce electronics in house. AND master SD-10 / BVR technology and employ it in large numbers as SAM / ABM through modified platform of Shaheen 1.

Very well said, PAF needs to get hi-tech fighters but at the end of the day, it is JF-17 that will be the workhorse for PAF and I think realization is there. Once full production capability gained, PAF/PAC would be much better position to do more customized changes in it.

PAF must get top priority over NAvy and Army in defense hierarchy.