JF-17/FC-1 Thunder Fighter

[con]

As I stated it is fairly easy to figure out. There was a Tomahawk that crashed (intact) when the U.S. was attacking Afghanistan. Reverse engineering!

Would getting hold of a tercom reciever mean Pakistan has access to Tercom data from US statellites as well?

And please dont tell me that Babur is reversed engineered Tomahawk.Americans are not that stupid to put electronics that can be so easily comprised.

Open up a simple mobile phone,u will find a Texas Ins. DSP chip? Can you reverse engineer it? you too have the chip just like Pakistan had "access" to Tomahawk electronics. Please do tel me.

 

[Owais]

Would getting hold of a tercom reciever mean Pakistan has access to Tercom data from US statellites as well?

And please dont tell me that Babur is reversed engineered Tomahawk.Americans are not that stupid to put electronics that can be so easily comprised.

Open up a simple mobile phone,u will find a Texas Ins. DSP chip? Can you reverse engineer it? you too have the chip just like Pakistan had "access" to Tomahawk electronics. Please do tel me.

nothing in this world can be fully copied by reverse engineering. its clear from the shape of Babur that it inherited some features of Tom Hawk and the rest of it is indeginiously developed.

 

[con]

nothing in this world can be fully copied by reverse engineering. its clear from the shape of Babur that it inherited some features of Tom Hawk and the rest of it is indeginiously developed.

Except for the shape what other features?

 

[MastanKhan]

Malaymishra,

The base you are talking about is a moot point. It is like re-inventing the wheel-----like if you want to make something, start from the scratch Well, you don't need to. If your fundamentals are sound and if you have clear goals in your mind as to what you want to do, you can pick it right from where others left it.

World of Technology is like being in a relay race------you try to get hold of the wand at the most convenient place where you can absorb the technology and fly with it.

What you are not understanding is that india is not way ahead of pakistan in any form of defence related technology, as it should have been, under the given circumstances. The money that you had---the engineers that were available to you---all the world was on your side when pakistan had sanctions----. The reason being, your priorities and focus is not in the right place. You are going for the biggest----Arjun, the best----LCA and you got nothing. You got to take baby steps----crawl--get up and waddle----walk one step at a time.

India will never be ahead of pakistan in defence related technology as much as it wants to, given standard operating conditions, i.e no sanctions. They will run pretty much in the same position that they are in now for awhile that in between 5 to 7 years from now, and then pakistan will start to close the gap and take out the overwhelming indian advantage that they have now.

 

[blain2]

Except for the shape what other features?

As in its turbofan engine, its air intake (air flow), ordnance, its Tercom, DSMAC etc. etc.....there is a whole lot of stuff that goes into the development than what you can get by looking at a finished/unexploded product. This is a case of giving credit where it is due...NESCOM all the way!

 

[ahussains]

let me know the Diffrence of Jf17s prototype 4 and 5 .. what i heard it have some airintakes diffrence .. What is that actually and for what purpose it needs and by changing what improvments come in JF17

 

[Keysersoze]

Would getting hold of a tercom reciever mean Pakistan has access to Tercom data from US statellites as well?

And please dont tell me that Babur is reversed engineered Tomahawk.Americans are not that stupid to put electronics that can be so easily comprised.

Open up a simple mobile phone,u will find a Texas Ins. DSP chip? Can you reverse engineer it? you too have the chip just like Pakistan had "access" to Tomahawk electronics. Please do tel me.

I think you are confusing TERCOM with GPS. You just need a good map of the area to set some basic mapping data. Hell you could probably get some good data from google earth Once you have that data you don't need satelites.

I am sure that the systems can be copied fairly easily. The code would have been the difficult part bit, apparently they cracked it!

 

[con]

As in its turbofan engine, its air intake (air flow), ordnance, its Tercom, DSMAC etc. etc.....there is a whole lot of stuff that goes into the development than what you can get by looking at a finished/unexploded product. This is a case of giving credit where it is due...NESCOM all the way!

Pakistan has tested Tercom,DSMAC,INS,GPS,range,aerodynamics,engine with just couple of test?
Forget other items lets look into guidance. Tercom,DSMAC,INS,GPS 4 type of guidance with couple of missile test? Is it pratically possible.Please think for a while.

As you said lets give them credit for what they have actually done for which they deserve,not for what they haven't done.

 

[con]

I think you are confusing TERCOM with GPS. You just need a good map of the area to set some basic mapping data. Hell you could probably get some good data from google earth Once you have that data you don't need satelites.

I am sure that the systems can be copied fairly easily. The code would have been the difficult part bit, apparently they cracked it!

keys i was referring to the satellites which would be mapped such a data. Where has Pakistan obtained this data from? As far I know China is yet to place a high resolution SAR capable satellite for such a mission.

The resolution of google is not enough for such a guidance. Imagine if your are flying at 20 mts at 80 kmph above the land,would you have be able to distinguish one object from another so easily? It definetly won't look like what you see in google earth.
Moreover what will provide Pakistan with the latest data,when the landscape around the target changes?

Hence I would say the "concept" is simple,however implementation is a simple story altoghter. If Pakistan is able to design a tercom with chips from unexploded missiles,then I would be waiting for Pakistan to "reverse engineer" DSP chips on a mobile. Should not be difficult,isn't it?

 

[Neo]

Malaymishra,

The base you are talking about is a moot point. It is like re-inventing the wheel-----like if you want to make something, start from the scratch Well, you don't need to. If your fundamentals are sound and if you have clear goals in your mind as to what you want to do, you can pick it right from where others left it.

World of Technology is like being in a relay race------you try to get hold of the wand at the most convenient place where you can absorb the technology and fly with it.

What you are not understanding is that india is not way ahead of pakistan in any form of defence related technology, as it should have been, under the given circumstances. The money that you had---the engineers that were available to you---all the world was on your side when pakistan had sanctions----. The reason being, your priorities and focus is not in the right place. You are going for the biggest----Arjun, the best----LCA and you got nothing. You got to take baby steps----crawl--get up and waddle----walk one step at a time.

India will never be ahead of pakistan in defence related technology as much as it wants to, given standard operating conditions, i.e no sanctions. They will run pretty much in the same position that they are in now for awhile that in between 5 to 7 years from now, and then pakistan will start to close the gap and take out the overwhelming indian advantage that they have now.

Excellent post Sir!
I couldn't have said it better!
:army:

 

[Neo]

And please dont tell me that Babur is reversed engineered Tomahawk.Americans are not that stupid to put electronics that can be so easily comprised.

What does it tell you about our engineers?

 

[blain2]

Pakistan has tested Tercom,DSMAC,INS,GPS,range,aerodynamics,engine with just couple of test?
Forget other items lets look into guidance. Tercom,DSMAC,INS,GPS 4 type of guidance with couple of missile test? Is it pratically possible.Please think for a while.

As you said lets give them credit for what they have actually done for which they deserve,not for what they haven't done.

The CM is flying in your face and mine. Somebody was responsible for taking a design and converting it into a tangible capability....the same thing that happened with Pakistan's nuclear program, ballistic missile program despite Indian denials about it has happened even now.

So I do not have to think. All I am saying is that do you belive Pakistan repainted the US LACM and tested it? Yes Chinese collaboration is a foregone conclusion but just like many other ventures, Pakistan is fully involved in it. For some reason this is the same issue that you Indians keep on bringing up on every single thread...get over it...there is a capability that has been acquired/developed...I could care less if its by hook or crook to be very honest with you.

I can go into the technical issues, but the fact of the matter is that I am not privy to whats going on at Nescom wrt Babur...and neither are you so for you to speculate that they have not been able to come up with many of the components of the Babur. So lets just take things as we see them....Pakistan is in possesion of a LACM capability....its in the process of testing and eventually operationalizing it. That is it!

 

[blain2]

keys i was referring to the satellites which would be mapped such a data. Where has Pakistan obtained this data from? As far I know China is yet to place a high resolution SAR capable satellite for such a mission.

The resolution of google is not enough for such a guidance. Imagine if your are flying at 20 mts at 80 kmph above the land,would you have be able to distinguish one object from another so easily? It definetly won't look like what you see in google earth.
Moreover what will provide Pakistan with the latest data,when the landscape around the target changes?

Hence I would say the "concept" is simple,however implementation is a simple story altoghter. If Pakistan is able to design a tercom with chips from unexploded missiles,then I would be waiting for Pakistan to "reverse engineer" DSP chips on a mobile. Should not be difficult,isn't it?

Tercom is clearly an option that is within the Chinese and Pakistani capability.
GPS is something that Pakistan is not looking at very reliably for this program due to potential problems in times of war.

 

[con]

The CM is flying in your face and mine. Somebody was responsible for taking a design and converting it into a tangible capability....the same thing that happened with Pakistan's nuclear program, ballistic missile program despite Indian denials about it has happened even now.

So I do not have to think. All I am saying is that do you belive Pakistan repainted the US LACM and tested it? Yes Chinese collaboration is a foregone conclusion but just like many other ventures, Pakistan is fully involved in it. For some reason this is the same issue that you Indians keep on bringing up on every single thread...get over it...there is a capability that has been acquired/developed...I could care less if its by hook or crook to be very honest with you.

I can go into the technical issues, but the fact of the matter is that I am not privy to whats going on at Nescom wrt Babur...and neither are you so for you to speculate that they have not been able to come up with many of the components of the Babur. So lets just take things as we see them....Pakistan is in possesion of a LACM capability....its in the process of testing and eventually operationalizing it. That is it!

I did not question Pakistan's ability to field a LACM nor pointed out towards any chinese involvement.
I am just pointing out that we need to differentiate what would "possibly" and pratically be achieved, irrespective of what claims have been made.

It is just a simple logic that if a missile has to field 4 different guidance system,then at-least there should be 4 tests to validate them.
If i will be testing a new missile,wouldn't I be give prority over testing on fundamental aspects rather than finding about different guidance?
Does this require me to be a "Indian hate everything about Pakistan" kind of person?
Does it require me or you to know inner secrets about Nescom? Since there has been just couple of tests we can to a large extend conclude that not all of the above type of guidance has been implemented.

There is nothing wrong in obtaining the Chinese assistance,but then lets make claims which can be atleast be logically backed up,though not with links.

 

[blain2]

Couple of tests in Pakistan does not mean that this LACM has not been tested elsewhere (China is a key partner and they have had a long, sustained CM program for a while so I would not assume that the first of the two tests were the maiden test flights of the LACM). The most recent article from an open source has been this KDR article that does talk about the Tercom and other aspects of the Babur LACM.

Source acknowledged that China and Pakistan shared the US “Tomahawk” cruise missile technologies. When the US military attacked the Taliban targets in Afghanistan in 2001, two “Tomahawk” cruise missiles fell on the territory of Pakistan and neither of them exploded. As a result, these two cruise missiles had no damages at all, and one of them was sent to China. Pakistan and China shared the research of “Tomahawk” technologies so that the two
sides had very active cooperation in the following design, research and finalization of their own cruise missiles. However, the source pointed out that BABUR’s engine and TERCOM technologies were developed by Pakistan independently, and they were all produced in Pakistan.

KDR predicted before that the cruise missiles developed by China also used TERCOM technology, and the Chinese cruise missiles may also turn to use GPS/GLONASS or BD satellite guidance system. Thus, the CEP of the China-made DH10 cruise missile could be higher than the Pakistani missiles. BABUR did not use satellite guidance technology, mainly because that the Chinese and Pakistani strategic missile forces have different understandings
on the application of satellite guidance technologies.

Both the Pakistani Air Force and the experts from the Pakistani strategic missile forces believe that GPS technologies are not reliable, since they can be easily interrupted by the US military at time of confrontation. Pakistan’s mistrust upon the US, though very much reduced over the past years of cooperation in anti terrorism operations, still exists obviously. As for China, since it has both BD positioning system and access to the GLONASS system, the Chinese experts are not resistant to the application of satellite positioning technologies in the development of their new cruise missiles. In addition, they believe that in a short-lasting and local warfare, there is very little possibility for the US to shut down all civil GPS services.

The experts from the Pakistani strategic missile forces believe that there is great potential for Pakistan and China to initiate further cooperation in jointly developing active BD satellite positioning system, or even developing Pakistan’s own regional satellite positioning system.
As a consequence, Pakistan has started to study the possibility of launching domestic-made satellite with indigenous carrier rocket.
................................

As to how Pakistan looks at India’s development of TMD technology, the experts from the Pakistani strategic missile forces point out that TMD technology is perhaps effective in dealing with ballistic missiles armed with conventional warheads, but TMD would be redundant when dealing with nuclear warheads, and may even help further expand the destructive radius of nuclear radiation. In addition, when a large amount of ballistic missiles
are fired simultaneously, TMD will simply become totally ineffective. Pakistani experts say that the full-scale service of the above ballistic missile in the Pakistani military forces symbolizes that Pakistan now has sufficient capability to contain any possible attacks from India. The unit’s commander of the Pakistani strategic missile forces stresses that Pakistan will never use nuclear weapon to attack its opponent first, and it will only resort to strategic
weapons when the country is under intense attacks and large-scale invasion.

The missile expert from the Pakistani Army also says that they do not have plans to further develop Shaheen-II, since Pakistan has only one enemy, and the Shaheen-II project is already sufficient to implement the country’s strategic defense objectives._

The above is from a series of articles that KDR has printed after interviewing many Pakistani officials including the chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff recently. So make what you will of it.