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What is the current position of J10 is any idea when they going to join the PAF ... in how much time, is this is possiable that 4 to 6 J-10 this year joins PAF:angel:

Currently all we know is that negotiations for the purchase of the J-10 is going on. As for if we could get them possibly this year. Well no. To customize the J-10s in our way, which is a must, it will take sometime. :)
 
Nice Pictures I seen and Also i got my new AVTAR tooo.. Thankx
 
Pakistan will have to modfy the cockpit of J-10 a LOT. J-10's avionics and cockpit interface, and radar are VERY lacking. Pakistan will have to upgrade it significantly, that will take some time.

Apart from that it will take some time for China to deliver the J-10's. Currently it cannot even satisfy its own needs.
 
Click to enlarge :agree:
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Pakistan will have to modfy the cockpit of J-10 a LOT. J-10's avionics and cockpit interface, and radar are VERY lacking. Pakistan will have to upgrade it significantly, that will take some time.

Apart from that it will take some time for China to deliver the J-10's. Currently it cannot even satisfy its own needs.

I still think Chinese have better avionics than the Russian counterparts.
 
No, More like 7-10 years, and then too lead or not remains to be seen. They will be par.
 
People keep saying that russian avionics suck, but thats only when compared to US and Israeli stuff. Otherwise russian avionics are still way ahead of anything most countries can manufacture.

Russian defence industry was keeping par with USA throughout cold war. But Russian weapons got a low quality image thanks to the fact that most of the time they were used by inexperienced, poorly trained soldiers against well trained experienced counterparts armed with US weapons. Eg Syria vs Israel. When handled by well trained soldiers, russian weapons have proven their worth. Eg when USAF bought the MiG-29 and tested it out.

Russian defence industry got a real blow when USSR collapsed. Desperately sort of funds, they were forced to come up with substandard weapons, not because of lack of abiltity, but lack of funds. Now with russian military getting more funds and thanks to their vast experience and large number of military scientists, they'll get back on track. Actually i'd say they r back on track already, building a 5th gen fighter
 
People keep saying that russian avionics suck, but thats only when compared to US and Israeli stuff. Otherwise russian avionics are still way ahead of anything most countries can manufacture.

Russian defence industry was keeping par with USA throughout cold war. But Russian weapons got a low quality image thanks to the fact that most of the time they were used by inexperienced, poorly trained soldiers against well trained experienced counterparts armed with US weapons. Eg Syria vs Israel. When handled by well trained soldiers, russian weapons have proven their worth. Eg when USAF bought the MiG-29 and tested it out.

Russian defence industry got a real blow when USSR collapsed. Desperately sort of funds, they were forced to come up with substandard weapons, not because of lack of abiltity, but lack of funds. Now with russian military getting more funds and thanks to their vast experience and large number of military scientists, they'll get back on track. Actually i'd say they r back on track already, building a 5th gen fighter

Sorry but the highlighted portion above is utter tripe! The Russian Def industry did not keep par with the U.S. in any way or form! in fact it was playing catch up and losing! (A good example is the Mig-29 and the F-15. the first operational F-15 flew in 1974. The Mig 29's design only started in that year!)
Russian equipment is designed with a specific military philosophy which is basically massed assaults with high mobility. the equipment (not to mention their training philosophy) is that the weight of numbers will prevail. Therefore their equipment is not going to contain some of the features in western equipment hence it is a LOT simpler in design etc etc.

I would love to know where Russian weapons have proven their worth? Even the Russians found lots of flaws when they fought in Chechnya. Were they poorly trained too?
 
Sorry but the highlighted portion above is utter tripe! The Russian Def industry did not keep par with the U.S. in any way or form! in fact it was playing catch up and losing! (A good example is the Mig-29 and the F-15. the first operational F-15 flew in 1974. The Mig 29's design only started in that year!)
Russian equipment is designed with a specific military philosophy which is basically massed assaults with high mobility. the equipment (not to mention their training philosophy) is that the weight of numbers will prevail. Therefore their equipment is not going to contain some of the features in western equipment hence it is a LOT simpler in design etc etc.

I would love to know where Russian weapons have proven their worth? Even the Russians found lots of flaws when they fought in Chechnya. Were they poorly trained too?

You took the words right out of my mouth. :tup:

Also, their are Easter Vs. Western doctrine, where as in the west it doesn't go down to numbers but technology, fewer numbers, but those weapons produced need to proivde bang for the buck.

Where as for Eastern (Russia) it' goes down to huge numbers, similar to the T-35 tank production where that tank was delpoyed and rammed right into the German tanks, but it didn't have the gun power or but had protection as the other allied tanks. Even till this day alot of Russian tanks are obselete.

Also, Russian training was also prevaliant in Iraqi Air Force, it's on record by an air force gereral (US) saying, they are happy it was Russian and Indian training that took hold rather than French and Pakistani training (hence why Pakistan relies on technology - western tech), same as Israel they were from the beginning trained in west doctrine (WWII and onwards). While they enemies used Russian doctrine sending mass numbers to intercept Israel, and we also seen that during the Korean war, even by the Russians themselves.

Also, during my 2 years of study from various sources working on my History degree I have come to the fact that Russian electronics aren't that sophistated and they are prone to jamming and breaking down. Even during the Chenchen war, the milia's were able to jam Russian hardware (you can google and find articles yourself, but I advise you to read books on Russian weapons to get a better understanding), most notably radio communicatin (which is a big problem during war, even Israel in their Summer war admitted Hezbullah jammed their signals but it took a while for them to crack it, once they did were able to figure out their position and plannings).
 
Indians dont use Russian Doctrine, For Godsakes I have never even heard 100guns policies in India. It is always been the british style, The regiments, squadrons, Fleet everything is based on their doctrine

And for the Quality of Indian training, You can look at the number of Western countries come to train in India, its jungle Warfare school as well as High ALtitude School, and the rest.

Or you can put the results of the wars it has been engaged in.
 
There is nothing Wrong with the Russian Doctrine just as there is no problem with Western Doctrine in Iraq, its just their approach, Doesnt Mean the Iraqi's used it in the right way in Gulf War 1, Iran-Iraq would be a more good example, which in reality shows how **** arabs are when it comes to modern warfare
 
Indians dont use Russian Doctrine, For Godsakes I have never even heard 100guns policies in India. It is always been the british style, The regiments, squadrons, Fleet everything is based on their doctrine.

That is formation which is another thing, you should go learn more about East/West doctrine what it truly is.

And for the Quality of Indian training, You can look at the number of Western countries come to train in India, its jungle Warfare school as well as High ALtitude School, and the rest.

Other nations train, the way they need to be trained and follow different tactics, etc. Just cause they come to train doesn't mean the "Quality" of Indian troops are up. Pakistan itself has officers, etc come and train but then it's up to the individual person to take that knowledge and doctrine and implement it, durning war time.

Its like me saying SSG comes to train in the US and they are good (PS. They are), but it comes down to tactics.

There is nothing Wrong with the Russian Doctrine just as there is no problem with Western Doctrine in Iraq, its just their approach, Doesnt Mean the Iraqi's used it in the right way in Gulf War 1, Iran-Iraq would be a more good example, which in reality shows how **** arabs are when it comes to modern warfare

First of all correct your language and engage is a good discussion, instead of cursing at another race, at least they don't end up killing their own men in peace time, like India.

Other than Iran-Iraq war, both sides threw numbers, if you read about the war, Iraq requested that other Arab nations supply man power which they did. This was the only way for them to hold ground rather than technologically rendering the enemy immoble.

Then you also have the Korean war, where North Korea engaged South and US with numbers rather then with sophistated tech, and using USSR doctrine, sure their planes were some what good as well but no match for US, hell even US shot down Russian pilots + instructors, it shows the quality of their doctrine and their tactics. Which they even used in the first Chechen war and got their back sides handed to them.

Also, at times against Russian pilots in Korean war, 5 planes were sent to intercept US planes, and they still lost (read about MiG alley, and other Korean war documentaries). USSR tactics were flawed and inept to fight modern war, another example of poor Russian pilots were Afgan/USSR war when we shot them down as well (might have been 10 but we didn't loose anything in either engagement, except a FF on our own F-16 by mistake).

Western: Small sophistated teams, backed with technology and force-multiplers work best to back a bigger punch rendering them immobile, which Russia never implemented in the past and neither in the future. Cause in Eastern doctine having a robust and large force, can cause delays and poor coordination (which costed those following it dearly). Their's more to it than this, of why Eastern fails, but you have to open a book and fully read about both, to get a better picture which I have done, for papers in the past.
 
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