JF-17/FC-1 Thunder Fighter

[EagleEyes]

Or you can put the results of the wars it has been engaged in.

Oh yes. We can see it really well.

1/7th size of a nation.

 

[sigatoka]

1. and using USSR doctrine, sure their planes were some what good as well but no match for US, hell even US shot down Russian pilots + instructors, it shows the quality of their doctrine and their tactics.

2. Western: Small sophistated teams, backed with technology and force-multiplers work best to back a bigger punch rendering them immobile, which Russia never implemented in the past and neither in the future. [/U]

1. I would disagree that USSR doctrine was inferior to that of U.S./West, Soviet losses were always higher in confrontation because the internal price that the Soviet military payed for labour vis-a-vis capital was artifically lowered due to conscription. Since the price paid for labour was low, they the ratio of labour used to capital was artificially high which led to far higher casuality rates than nations such as U.S. which used volunteer soldiers (except in Vietnam where they paid the price for conscription in very heavy casualities). I would say that the failure was more in terms of the economic planning which distorted the relative costs that resulted in high casualities, since the military took the relative costs as given by central planners, they optimised which was efficient according to their constraints but which to everyone else appeared as excessive casualities.


2. I strongly disagree with the point that Russia will not implement a smaller more proffessional force and that they do not wish to do so. Russia's problem post Soviet has been complex. The reason they have not moved as quickly to a far smaller volunteer technologically advanced force is due to three reasons.

a. Lack of funds to put into R&D to develop new weapons which is now quickly changing due to the robust growth of Russian economy

b. Overhang of inventory from Soviet times, its very hard to justify economically developing a new Tank when there are 9,000 T-72's in the inventory or another plane when thousands of fighter planes are present, now that most of the equipment is reaching obsolence the efforts in develoment is gathering pace.

c. Adjustment costs, there are many fixed facilities for e.g. barracks and so forth that are useless in other roles and therefore since those costs are sunk it reduces the cost of large conscription force vis-a-vis volunteer forces in short run. However when the facilities come up for replacement, the costs of conscription forces will rise vis-a-vis volunteer forces and these facilities will not be replaced but rather the force will contract. The central point is that since a lot of the facilities represent sunk costs and still have a few years of life in them which means that moving too quickly in contracting the military force will incur excessive financial penalty.

 

[Contrarian]

War is war, whether with a bigger adversary or smaller. The results count, and not the reason justifying them in the end.
We didnt ask for Pakistan to be a small country, neither did we ask for war, it was thrust upon us in the name of 'liberating' kashmir.

 

[BATMAN]

We didnt ask for Pakistan to be a small country, neither did we ask for war, it was thrust upon us in the name of 'liberating' kashmir.

Mr. Malay.. Your statments are very childish or you are one.
Reality is exactly opposite, it was India who thrusted upon Pakistan to Liberate Bangladesh (please, don't disagree) and by the way what do you consider winning war!! How many hundered sq.km have you so far conqured in all your wars!! OH.. I'm sorry... I forgot.. you were winner in 1965 since you acheived your target 'capturing Lahore' but still you should be ashamed for choosing such an easy target do you know how far Lahore is from India's border??? 0km.
Here is a question to check your IQ (chance for you to prove that you are a grown up man)
Do you know how much land Pakistan returned to India at the end of 1965 war.

 

[BATMAN]

Adnan,

Stop Throwing your resume, nobody is impressed, Since you have a better grasp of the language, Join the call center over here. Russia never engaged Pakistan in a confrontation, Did you want a nuclear Wasteland for a country.
Covert Russian Support to an inferior North Korean army is your best example, sad.
Iraq vs NATO is your other, When there were no more Soviet Union for Support.

Hello Adux,
Answer to your statement should be comming from Mr. Adnan but I found you so funny that I couldn't resist to comment.
First you wrote no body is impressed by Adnan's language skill and than immediately you offered him a job.. wow nice continuation. But there is a problem... I know the salaries in India are 1/2 as of in Pakistan (for the same work) and you know this is one reason why India is a failure story.

 

[EagleEyes]

Guys.. Chill! We are discussing here JF-17/FC-1 Thunder not an CALL CENTER in India. If the CALL CENTER is the competition then we are not interested in hearing Apu.

Thank you come again.

 

[BATMAN]

Holly wood movies from cold war shows that all Russians were the most stupid on planet earth but actually those were who belived in that propaganda. Similary all Indian media is busy writing good things about Pakistan and internet is one medium.
But how come from last 30 years India failed to acheive some thing what Pakistan has acheived in 10 years. JF17.
Bye Bye for now.

 

[Keysersoze]

OK.........I go away for ONE day and this place goes nuts!

I suggest someone starts a thread on the subject of Russian military doctrine and I will give you a point by point reasoning as to why their equipment reflects their military philosophy.

As for the rest utter waste of time if you ask me

 

[Contrarian]

But how come from last 30 years India failed to acheive some thing what Pakistan has acheived in 10 years. JF17.
Bye Bye for now.

Pakistan has not achieved anything. JF-17 was not made by Pakistan, it was made by China. Please clear that before you say anything else. Pakistan will get to manufacture the plane, that is all.

 

[Contrarian]

OK.........I go away for ONE day and this place goes nuts!

You know what the alternative is, dont you Key...Dont go away!:pdf1:

 

[EagleEyes]

Pakistan has not achieved anything. JF-17 was not made by Pakistan, it was made by China. Please clear that before you say anything else. Pakistan will get to manufacture the plane, that is all.

Dude how many times do have to discuss this issue? China didn't wholely created the plane. Pakistan and China created it, and the expertise used in the creation were learned by China and Pakistan together, and they will be used for later production of aircrafts and other aircrafts in the development.

If you want me to hit my head on wall, let me know. :wall:

 

[melb4aust]

OK.........I go away for ONE day and this place goes nuts!

I suggest someone starts a thread on the subject of Russian military doctrine and I will give you a point by point reasoning as to why their equipment reflects their military philosophy.

As for the rest utter waste of time if you ask me

What did i miss .......

Pakistan has not achieved anything. JF-17 was not made by Pakistan, it was made by China. Please clear that before you say anything else. Pakistan will get to manufacture the plane, that is all.

Com on man......have look at ur statement again.........and think what ru saying or trying to say.........i think ur not that stupid to believe such thing, patriotism is another thing and i respect that.........its time to accept the reality now...ok.

Jf-17 is just a mere surprise........wait and see there is alot more to come!!!

 

[Regal]

Induction of high-tech aircrafts for PAF soon: Pakistan
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force would soon induct high-medium-tech and high-tech fleet of fighter-bomber aircraft with the aim to modernize the country’s air force, said Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mamood Ahmed on Friday.

“We have plans to replace our ageing fleet with the fourth and fifth generation fighter-bomber aircraft till year 2015,” he said while briefing newsmen regarding future plans of PAF with special regard to the manufacturing of JF-17 Thunder aircraft with the help of China, at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra.
He said PAF was finalizing to purchase high-tech J-10 type aircraft from China and initially two squadrons of this fourth generation aircraft with the capability of being a four point five generation aircarft would be inducted in the PAF
https://defence.pk/news/publish/Induction_of_high-tech_aircrafts_for_PAF_soon_Pakistan_20070405.php

Just going back to this news article it looks like Pakistan is definitely looking into Chinese J-XX. Its quite evident from this article that Chinese fifth generation plan is well advanced in its development and either Pakistan has already joined the program or is watching it very closely. Also its quite clear that PAF J-10 will be quite an adversary to anything it faces in the region.

 

[Keysersoze]

Pakistan has not achieved anything. JF-17 was not made by Pakistan, it was made by China. Please clear that before you say anything else. Pakistan will get to manufacture the plane, that is all.

An interesting point to make to this is the following....(Taken from one of the articles I posted in the LCA thread.

As experts like Richard D. Fisher have noted, Chinese projects tend to quickly hand off significant components to others and confine the kinds of domestic expertise required. The J-10 has been an example, and the massive changes required when Israeli and Western cooperation ended have made the project incredibly challenging - but had the Chinese not outsourced major aspects like the engines to the Russians, the project would probably have failed completely.

The complexities inherent in designing a new fighter from scratch are formidable, even for a lightweight fighter like the Tejas. As Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar (Retd) notes, India's industry had significant experience deficits going into this project, which have delayed the project significantly. All the more reason, then, to bring in foreign partners for components like the engine et. al. and minimize the complexities faced by India's indigenous teams in its state-run organizations.

Indeed, Sainis and Joseph's examination of the benefits to Indian industry fromthe LCA program shows that most benefits would have been retained had India taken this route.

 

[Keysersoze]

Pakistan expects to receive Russian engines in JF-17 aircraft order, says spokesperson
Pakistan has been told of no "major problems" in acquiring the Russian engines to power its JF-17 Thunder aircraft that is being co-developed by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and China's Chengdu Aircraft Industries Group, a government official has told Jane's.Political and strategic issues surround the use of the engine in Pakistan Air Force aircraft as India, one of Russia's best defence equipment customers, is applying pressure to prevent the engine going into aircraft of its nuclear rival.

[Jane's Defence Industry - first posted to http://jdin.janes.com - 02 April 2007]

Don't have the rest of the article unfortunately......