Islam and punishment

[VCheng]

I provided a proposal for a solution. Obviously it is futile to just sit on it and hope it'll happen. By that logic I could say that secularism is impractical because we can't expect Pakistani politicians to just suddenly decide to implement it.

Initiative is needed. Just like you would need an initiative to implement secularism, you also need an initiative to make religious scholars get together and agree on a common core.

But it is perfectly possible and practical.

Saying it is ''futile to expect it'' is a very fallacious way of dismissing a perfectly valid solution.

What would call a solution that has never been even close to being implemented in Pakistan since its independence, nor in any Muslim country for the last hundred years? Futile. Hopeless. Ain't happenin'.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What would call a solution that has never been even close to being implemented in Pakistan since its independence, nor in any Muslim country for the last hundred years? Futile. Hopeless. Ain't happenin'.

Those arguments have raged on for almost 1,000 years. Just consider the diverging schism between Shia and Sunni Islam as a case study. Please refer to Munir Commission which when asked for a simple question "what is a definition of a Muslim" failed to arrive at a consensus after 6 months of interviews between differant ulema.

Even today simple thing like having the Eid day agreed leads to differances. If this is unity of thought on such binary concepts forget about anything slightly complicated.

 

[VCheng]

Those arguments have raged on for almost 1,000 years. Just consider the diverging schism between Shia and Sunni Islam as a case study. Please refer to Munir Commission which when asked for a simple question "what is a definition of a Muslim" failed to arrive at a consensus after 6 months of interviews between differant ulema.

Even today simple thing like having the Eid day agreed leads to differances. If this is unity of thought on such binary concepts forget about anything slightly complicated.

And yet the proponents of this imaginary solution fail to see the futility of what they hope for, despite the evidence.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And yet the proponents of this imaginary solution fail to see the futility of what they hope for, despite the evidence.

For me this simple. Millions on millions of Muslim live in secular countries. Almost all the Muslims living in the West are migrants or children of migrants. More migrants are and will head to secular countries in the future.

Thus I can arrive at some very simple facts. First being that secularism is consistent with Islam. The actions of these Muslims demonstrates this fact. Those who say no must explain to me how they can then continue to live in the secular world.

1. By continue to live in secular countries Muslim's validate secularism.
2. There maybe aspects of secularism they don't like but by continuing to live their the Muslims make a value judgement. Do I stay? Do I move?

 

[VCheng]

For me this simple. Millions on millions of Muslim live in secular countries. Almost all the Muslims living in the West are migrants or children of migrants. More migrants are and will head to secular countries in the future.

Thus I can arrive at some very simple facts. First being that secularism is consistent with Islam. The actions of these Muslims demonstrates this fact. Those who say no must explain to me how they can then continue to live in the secular world.

1. By continue to live in secular countries Muslim's validate secularism.
2. There maybe aspects of secularism they don't like but by continuing to live their the Muslims make a value judgement. Do I stay? Do I move?

Validate secularism? Impossibru!

These millions have "nothing to do with Islam, they might have never prayed all their life, fasted, paid zakat, learnt Arabic to read Quran, tafseer, hadith, nothing but they present their views on Islam and Islamic jurisprudence as great scholars of all time. People are talking about punishments in Islam without knowing let alone understanding the concept of Hadd and Taazeer, what a joke. You ask them if they have read Tafseer Kabir an they'll have no idea what is Tafseer Kabir and yet they have audacity to vomit about Islamic jurisprudence."

All bloody rickshaw drivers!

 

[VCheng]

For me this simple. Millions on millions of Muslim live in secular countries. Almost all the Muslims living in the West are migrants or children of migrants. More migrants are and will head to secular countries in the future.

Thus I can arrive at some very simple facts. First being that secularism is consistent with Islam. The actions of these Muslims demonstrates this fact. Those who say no must explain to me how they can then continue to live in the secular world.

1. By continue to live in secular countries Muslim's validate secularism.
2. There maybe aspects of secularism they don't like but by continuing to live their the Muslims make a value judgement. Do I stay? Do I move?

Hey, wait a minute. How do you explain the likes of Anjem Choudhary if Muslims living in the UK validate secularism?

 

[syedali73]

1. By continue to live in secular countries Muslim's validate secularism.

Not all Muslims migrated to Madeena and some were still living in Pagan Mecca for numerous reasons. They were validating Paganism? Prophet (PBUH) advised Muslims to migrate to Christian Habsha, was that to validate Christianity? In the golden age, non-Muslims used to come and live in Islamic courtiers; they were validating Islam? Muslims have been living for over 900 years in Hindu majority India, first as rulers, later as subjects, they were/are validating Hinduism?

Yeh 'validate' zarrorat sey ziada hi highlight nahin ho gaya?

@TankMan: Just the other day I was listening to an interview by legendary classical singer Ustad Salamat Ali Khan. He was asked if he approves of popular or so called 'Pop' music. He said "I approve it when sung by whites, the Europeans who invented it, but not when performed by Desis or Pakistanis, for they never understand what it is". When asked why people ridicule 'classical music', he went on saying, "because people don't understand it; they criticize something that they don't understand". He further added "there was a time when people would learn classical to listen and enjoy it". So true, you cant appreciate something that you don't understand in the first place. Shakespeare's classical work wont be enjoyed by a person who is not familiar of English and not just English, but English of 17th centaury.

So my friend similar is the case with Islam too. Those who are oblivious of Islamic teachings and its system of jurisprudence are giving us a lecture on its shortcomings. It indeed is like a riksha wala lecturing me about medicine.

 

[TankMan]

What would call a solution that has never been even close to being implemented in Pakistan since its independence, nor in any Muslim country for the last hundred years? Futile. Hopeless. Ain't happenin'.

Is that the only argument you have against my ideas? Just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it is impossible or hopeless.

Saying it is ''futile to expect it'' is a very fallacious way of dismissing a perfectly valid solution.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

For me this simple. Millions on millions of Muslim live in secular countries. Almost all the Muslims living in the West are migrants or children of migrants. More migrants are and will head to secular countries in the future.

Thus I can arrive at some very simple facts. First being that secularism is consistent with Islam. The actions of these Muslims demonstrates this fact. Those who say no must explain to me how they can then continue to live in the secular world.

1. By continue to live in secular countries Muslim's validate secularism.
2. There maybe aspects of secularism they don't like but by continuing to live their the Muslims make a value judgement. Do I stay? Do I move?

Brother what are your views about two nation theory which is the basis of creation of Pakistan. do u think Muslims did mistake to create Pakistan as they could have been live in united India under the banner of secularism?

Is that the only argument you have against my ideas? Just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it is impossible or hopeless.

Saying it is ''futile to expect it'' is a very fallacious way of dismissing a perfectly valid solution.

I said that its habit of our dear muhtram janab @syed ali haider to keep jumping from one question to next and he will never satisfied with any of your explanation and will keep repeating same rants unless you show agreement with his assumptions and views of Islam or Islamic punishment. He consider Islamic concepts outdated which cannot be practice in 21 century as Islamic punishment are cruel and barbarism for him. Even Islamic concept of morality is outdated so we should follow his western culture and their keep changing morals because they are simply perfect. I bet if he was alive during Prophet(PBUH) time then he would have objected that why he(peace be upon him) got married with 13 wives and why some of them were kids as per his western standards. I am sure you know the story of bani isreal when Allah asked them to sacrifice cow and they were just making excuses how old should be cow, what colour it should be, how they should slaughter him etc etc so you will get same excuses here. Good luck

 

[VCheng]

Is that the only argument you have against my ideas? Just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it is impossible or hopeless.

Saying it is ''futile to expect it'' is a very fallacious way of dismissing a perfectly valid solution.

Something that has not happened in a hundred years to emulate what happened several hundreds of years ago is not a perfectly valid solution to anything. It is a perfectly valid way of dismissing such imaginary solutions that have no hope in hell or heaven of coming true in this world. In the next, may be. Not in this one. Except of course, someone invents a time machine and we can go back in time.

He consider Islamic concepts outdated which cannot be practice in 21 century as Islamic punishment are cruel and barbarism for him. Even Islamic concept of morality is outdated so we should follow his western culture and their keep changing morals because they are simply perfect.

A typical false argument. Nobody is saying that Islamic concepts are outdated or invalid or cannot be practiced in the 21st century. All I am saying is that they belong in the personal domain, with the state having no business in enforcing a religion upon the entire population. That is all.

 

[syedali73]

... will keep repeating same rants ...

What is obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD)?

Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) is an anxiety disorder characterized by uncontrollable, unwanted thoughts and repetitive, ritualized behaviors you feel compelled to perform. If you have OCD, you probably recognize that your obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviors are irrational – but even so, you feel unable to resist them and break free. Like a needle getting stuck on an old record, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) causes the brain to get stuck on a particular thought or urge.

We must give credit to PDF where even OCD patients are allowed to waste bandwidth and time.

 

[VCheng]

Oh great, we now move from petty personal attacks to remote psychoanalysis. Way to go dear TTA!

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Raja.Pakistani said: ↑

I certaintly find contradiction in many concepts. Let me tell you

Secular countries allow freedom to two adult Muslims to involve in pre-martial or extra martial sex
Quran suggest punishment for pre-martial or extra martial affairs whether we like it or hate it

Secular countries care for material benefits or political interest even if they have to do wrong things to gain these benefits
Quran suggest to fear God and do the right thing even if it bring no material benefits

Islam may allow you to keep two wives within certain conditions
seculars laws don't allow you this

Secular countries allow gambling, homosexuality, p orn and pubs/wine, interests
Quran or Islam again oppose these things and consider them immoral so again restriction on freedom

similarly laws of divorce, marriage, adoption, abortion etc are different

Thanks for being honest. Which brings me to very simple question. Why do you continue to live in a de facto secular state when it contradicts Islamic precepts?

syedali73 said: ↑
@@TankMan These people are not even living in Pakistan or any so-called Muslim majority country, why they just cant leave Muslims and Islam alone?

May I ask how is this relevant? Did you know the name that you just used "PAKISTAN" was coined by a Rehmat Ali in 1933 while living in UK. His living in UK certainly did not disqualify his contribution. For the last time I am going to tell you stop trying to gag those of us who live abroad. My father's land is in Pakistan. I have a share in it. That belonged to his dad. Which belonged to his dad. It is my birthright. I would be prepared to spill blood over it and I don't need some migrant in Malaysia continously trying muffle me from what I want to say on the grounds of being ex-pat.

It was truly unfortunate that they happened to born to Muslim parents and I am sure they regretted that miserable moment,

I notice you bring this up often. I am sure of who my dad is and I consider that as a honour. Are you sure about yourself because you seem to have complex about this? Something we need to know here? DNa results were not quite what was expected? Is that what all this is about?

If you have doubts about yourself please do not questions other's birth.

but they are more than welcome to leave Islam.

So now you have gone from just a mortal migrant in Malaysia to Allah's gatekeeper? Well done on your divine promotion.

Islam will not die if certain Islamophobes leave it, for that way, they ll do favor both to themselves and Islam.

Well it certainly will survive long after you have left this earth. Your self appointed protector status is not needed for Islam's preservation.

There is simply no point debating shariah and its implantation with those who have NEVER practiced shariah in their entire pathetic and miserable lives.

You sound like person who has not even lived a life. I can't think of anything more pathetic then that.

I am a doctor and it would be plain stupid, in fact downright rediculous to discuss medicine with a rikshaw driver.

Are you really? Then you would have to be a certified idiot to even contemplate such a proposition. With your powers of deductive logic I fear for your patients. Please don't dish out anything stronger than Aspirin that way some of your patients might at least by default have their headaches cured after seeing you.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

A typical false argument. Nobody is saying that Islamic concepts are outdated or invalid or cannot be practiced in the 21st century. All I am saying is that they belong in the personal domain, with the state having no business in enforcing a religion upon the entire population. That is all.

and you think what you say is what Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) said and thats the demand of Islam from Muslims. What wasthe need for Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) to establish Islamic state and then caliphs (his close companions) did same after him ? Why did not limit Islam to personal domain instead of establishing Islamic rule, bait ul maal and also punishing people for not paying zakat

What is obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD)?

Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) is an anxiety disorder characterized by uncontrollable, unwanted thoughts and repetitive, ritualized behaviors you feel compelled to perform. If you have OCD, you probably recognize that your obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviors are irrational – but even so, you feel unable to resist them and break free. Like a needle getting stuck on an old record, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) causes the brain to get stuck on a particular thought or urge.

We must give credit to PDF where even OCD patients are allowed to waste bandwidth and time.

You are good doctor so you diagnosed it well. Now recommend some good medicines

Oh great, we now move from petty personal attacks to remote psychoanalysis. Way to go dear TuTA!

Aasi choti moti baton ka asar nhi ho ga app pe You are good poster as long as you stay away from posting about certain topics and Islam is one of them but then you are practising real freedom of expression

 

[VCheng]

and you think what you say is what Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) said and thats the demand of Islam from Muslims. What wasthe need for Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) to establish Islamic state and then caliphs (his close companions) did same after him ? Why did not limit Islam to personal domain instead of establishing Islamic rule, bait ul maal and also punishing people for not paying zakat

I think that his PBUH achievements were simply outstanding for all mankind. All that was great and magnificent. But the problem is that those concepts can be applied in today's world only be adapting them, or by going back in time.