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Islam and punishment

No. I don't find any of these contradicting or in any way reducing my beliefs. Now what is your answer to the same question?
Actually he has a point. You see Islam bans all forms of usury and interests on money. This is something we can't avoid in modern banking where all currency in circulation is essentially backed by debt on interest. Many Muslim countries have tried to implement full reserve banking without interest but failed miserably. So when even they can't do it, why do Muslims living in the West are keen on bringing back State Shariah?
 
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No. I don't find any of these contradicting or in any way reducing my beliefs. Now what is your answer to the same question?
I certaintly find contradiction in many concepts. Let me tell you

Secular countries allow freedom to two adult Muslims to involve in pre-martial or extra martial sex
Quran suggest punishment for pre-martial or extra martial affairs whether we like it or hate it

Secular countries care for material benefits or political interest even if they have to do wrong things to gain these benefits
Quran suggest to fear God and do the right thing even if it bring no material benefits

Islam may allow you to keep two wives within certain conditions
seculars laws don't allow you this

Secular countries allow gambling, homosexuality, p orn and pubs/wine, interests
Quran or Islam again oppose these things and consider them immoral so again restriction on freedom

similarly laws of divorce, marriage, adoption, abortion etc are different
 
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Highest number of executions are carried out in the US of A.
To some amputating a hand might look cruel, but I think locking someone up for a life time in the worst kind of jails with all kinds of crimes happening within them is more cruel. Locking someone up for an extended period of length is literally destroying their whole lives along wi4th lives of their families.



It is often stridently claimed that the gruesome punishments being handed out by IS are not Islamic, but is that really true? This article looks at the issue, and it should make for a good discussion:

http://www.economist.com/news/inter...ishments-are-more-prevalent-muslim-world-book

Islam and punishment
By the book
Why harsh punishments are more prevalent in the Muslim world
From the print edition

20150704_IRP002_0.jpg

Cruel, but not unusual

MUSLIMS the world over are horrified by the executions carried out by Islamic State (IS) in the name of their religion. On June 28th the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, an NGO based in Britain, said it knew of more than 3,000 in the past year. More than half were of civilians—and 74, of children. Yet the self-declared caliphate is not the only Muslim “state” keen on the death penalty and other brutal punishments. At least nine countries have stoning as a judicial sentence, and five have amputation. All are Islamic.

Why? Islam’s sacred texts are not more bloodthirsty than those of Judaism or Christianity. The Old Testament names 36 misdeeds, including using magic and striking a parent, as meriting death; the Koran just two: hiraba (“spreading mischief”) and murder. It says that the family of a murder victim may forgive and therefore spare the killer. Death, stoning, amputation and lashes are reserved for a small number of serious crimes, including theft and adultery, collectively known as hudud.

Under the Ottoman empire, just one person was stoned to death in 600 years. But since the early 1970s, when only Saudi Arabia ruled according to the Koran, the trend has been for ever-harsher punishments. In 1979 post-revolutionary Iran brought in sharia (Islamic law); Pakistan, Afghanistan and Sudan soon followed. In 2014 Brunei introduced a strict sharia code; Malaysia’s opposition wants to see hudud laws enforced. “Spreading mischief”, literally meaning “waging death against Allah and his angels”, is generally now taken to include homosexuality and apostasy. Such definition-stretching is possible since Islamic law relies on not only the Koran, but also thousands of hadith—supposed sayings and doings of the Prophet Muhammad—and later scholarship. For some crimes, judges can choose to order whippings and the like, even if the Koran does not insist on it—and many do.

The intertwining of state and religion is only a partial explanation. Though all Muslim countries mention Islam in their constitutions, they differ in the weight they give it. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan regard it as the only source of law. But far more pick and mix. Egypt’s criminal code is inspired by those of Britain and France. Across much of Iraq, tribal law holds sway.

A bigger reason for reliance on bloody sentences, often carried out in public, is the instability that plagues the Islamic world. “Governments tend to use Islamic law according to their interests,” says Ahmed Taleb, a cleric in Lebanon. An ongoing flurry of death sentences in Egypt targets the Muslim Brotherhood, the main opposition. The Saudi regime must curry favour with hardline clerics, who prop it up. Jordan and Pakistan recently revived the death penalty in response to growing insecurity: Jordan after IS burned to death a pilot who crashed in Syria; Pakistan after the Taliban slaughtered children in a school.

Reformist scholars point to Koranic verses and hadith in favour of mercy, and the strict conditions set for the harshest punishments. A conviction for adultery, for example, requires eyewitness testimony from four male Muslims—a high bar. They argue that the use of religion to cloak political decisions is distorting Islam to such an extent that some rulings contradict the Koran. Today adultery is punishable by stoning, whereas the Koran prescribes 100 lashes—and 80 lashes for falsely accusing another. According to Sadakat Kadri, a barrister in London who studies Islamic law, in the seventh century, when Islam was founded, that was rather progressive.

Others argue that interpretation needs to move with the times. “History shows that the penalty is related to the circumstances of the society,” says Hossam Mekawy, an Egyptian judge. But public opinion, as well as hardline clerics, makes talk of reform difficult: a Pew survey in 2013 found that many Muslims in South Asia, the Middle East and north Africa favoured cutting off thieves’ hands and executing apostates. Governments who ease up do so de facto rather than de jure: Iran imposed a moratorium on stoning for adultery, for instance, rather than getting rid of it.

Liberal lawyers in Saudi Arabia want more penalties codified to stop judges using harsher sentences than prescribed: more than half of this year’s death sentences have been for crimes for which other sentences were available. Still, as a lawyer in Riyadh, the Saudi capital, points out, that brings you only so far. “It’s impossible to get away from the fact that the current jurisprudence says lashes, stoning and the death penalty are required in certain cases,” he says. Without open debate about crime and punishment within the Islamic world, the killing and maiming will continue.

From the print edition: International
 
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It is NOT the responsibility of the state to meddle with its citizen's religion. How long would it take for you to understand that?
It is the citizens' right to be governed the way they want to, is it not? Then, if the majority of citizens want to be governed according to their religion, what's the problem? Why do they not have that right? As long as the religion they are being governed according to provides sufficient rights to minorities, which Islam does, there is no problem.

The state failing to provide basic facilities and rights has nothing to do with it being governed by religion. If it is failing now, it will continue to fail in a secular system unless basic issues with governance are addressed.

Tell me, if someone like Zardari was to govern a secular state, would its condition be any different than that of a religious state?

The fallacy of the secularism argument is that it assumes that the state being governed by religion is somehow a problem. It isn't.
Again, modesty is a social construct. It can only be imposed by state in public. What its citizens do in private is none of its concern!
Please go through the trouble of reading my post properly instead of jumping at little sentences that catch your eye. I am not arguing in favour of Burkas, that was simply an example.

When did I ever say its the state's concern what citizens do in private? It isn't. There's no argument here.
Simple answer: You can't. Its impossible to have a brand of clergy or Islamic scholars that millions of Muslims would agree on.
We already have millions of Muslims adhering to the Barelvi brand and another set of millions adhering to the Deobandi one, and a few other sets of millions adhering to a few other similar sects.

But that's not the point. Nobody is looking for absolute agreement. The scholars don't have to agree on each and every thing. They just have to agree to discuss their disagreements in a civilized manner. That would solve most of the problems we Muslims are facing.

Can you give any examples since the fall of the Ottoman Empire whether any Muslim country has been able to solve these issues relating to implementing "true" Islam? If no one has been able to do it, what makes one believe any of your proposed solutions are realistically achievable now? You are right, it is not a matter of fixing Islamic Law or abandoning it, it is more a matter of implementing it. And if it is unimplementable by all Muslim countries over a century, it pretty much can not exist, except in the imagination of a diehard few, or a a private matter of citizens with nothing to do with the State.
Do you see any ''true Islam'' argument here? No - then why are you bringing it up? Please don't conjure up generic strawmen. That only undermines a civilized argument.

We're not talking about any ''true Islam'', we're talking about unity among Muslims despite them having differing beliefs on some points - unity does not equal uniformity, and I don't agree with the uniformity implied by this whole ''true Islam'' idea.

Of course there are going to be disagreements. The strength of a community is in dealing with those disagreements positively. As long as they have enough beliefs in common to be classed as being Muslims, which is where the core elements argument comes in.

Muslims have been at their weakest since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Why must we restrict ourselves to that particular time period for an example? And why do we even need an example? If there are flaws in my arguments and ideas, take them on directly.

As far as examples go, the Rashidun Caliphate and the subsequent Islamic Golden Age is example enough.

Right now your argument is that what I've described is not practical - and my argument is that it is, all it needs is initiative.
You are right, it is not a matter of fixing Islamic Law or abandoning it, it is more a matter of implementing it.
Implementation is very easy once we've decided what it is. And for that we need open and honest discussion among scholars and sects.
. And if it is unimplementable by all Muslim countries over a century, it pretty much can not exist,
Democracy remained unimplementable in Europe for centuries. Does it not exist? I can not stress just how flawed this line of thinking is.

For one like you chuckling, there are tens more who are fuming at my audacity to dare question their self-righteous religious and moral authority.

After all, this was said by a TTA above: ".....those who have nothing to do with Islam, they might have never prayed all their life, fasted, paid zakat, learnt Arabic to read Quran, tafseer, hadith, nothing but they present their views on Islam and Islamic jurisprudence as great scholars of all time. People are talking about punishments in Islam without knowing let alone understanding the concept of Hadd and Taazeer, what a joke. You ask them if they have read Tafseer Kabir an they'll have no idea what is Tafseer Kabir and yet they have audacity to vomit about Islamic jurisprudence. Imagine a rikshaw driver telling me about medicine."
Have the decency to tag @syedali73 when you bash him. And do explain what is wrong with his argument - it is always the people who do not know anything about Islam and its laws that advocate abandoning them.

how the hell can you *bleep* *bleep* look me in the eye and with a *bleep* straight face say "secularism" is bad?
Nobody is arguing it's 'bad'. The argument here is that firstly, we want to be governed according to our religion and secondly, secularism won't help us since the underlying issues, the actual problems, will remain regardless.
 
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@TankMan I have lost count of how many threads have been started by the OP on bashing Shariah. The thread was mischievously started out as Islam and punishments and now it is heading towards implementation of sharia etc. These people are not even living in Pakistan or any so-called Muslim majority country, why they just cant leave Muslims and Islam alone? It was truly unfortunate that they happened to born to Muslim parents and I am sure they regretted that miserable moment, but they are more than welcome to leave Islam. Islam will not die if certain Islamophobes leave it, for that way, they ll do favor both to themselves and Islam. There is simply no point debating shariah and its implantation with those who have NEVER practiced shariah in their entire pathetic and miserable lives. I am a doctor and it would be plain stupid, in fact downright rediculous to discuss medicine with a rikshaw driver.
 
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@Jaanbaz
hate is a very powerful emotion

Muslims are very powerful
Muslims are very emotional

therefore when you join these two awesome forces together then peace loving Muslims can join together and burn flags, effigies, throw stones at passing cars and burn down public property. then there is no difference in color race, language all unite to curse all those who are not as pure as them
 
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@Jaanbaz
hate is a very powerful emotion

Muslims are very powerful
Muslims are very emotional

therefore when you join these two awesome forces together then peace loving Muslims can join together and burn flags, effigies, throw stones at passing cars and burn down public property. then there is no difference in color race, language all unite to curse all those who are not as pure as them
Only Muslims? What about Hindutvawadis? Evangelicals? Zionists?

Looks like Islamophobia and self-defeatisting approach is running pretty deep in members from management.
 
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Actually he has a point. You see Islam bans all forms of usury and interests on money. This is something we can't avoid in modern banking where all currency in circulation is essentially backed by debt on interest. Many Muslim countries have tried to implement full reserve banking without interest but failed miserably. So when even they can't do it, why do Muslims living in the West are keen on bringing back State Shariah?
a gentleman has a differnt view when i met him last time
he says rules on interest have been misunderstood and he agrees its unavoidable in the current way the economic system works. I will get him to register and post.

Only Muslims? What about Hindutvawadis? Evangelicals? Zionists?
well they are not Muslims are they? everything about them is haram and evil. no Muslim can dare to copy infidels who will burn in hell.
this is why good people of Lahore routinely come out to protest against the human rights abuse of Hindus against innocent Muslims. you see Lahore is a shining example of peace tranquillity and love where all those who were not fortunate to be born Muslims (with the correct faith) are treated with kindness until they convert willingly and become the part of Muslim brotherhood.
 
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well they are not Muslims are they? everything about them is haram and evil. no Muslim care dare to copy infidels who will burn in hell.
this is why good people of Lahore routinely come out to protest against the human rights abuse of Hindus against innocent Muslims. you see Lahore is a shining example of peace tranquillity and love where all those who were not fortunate to be born Muslims (with the correct faith) are treated with kindness until they convert willingly and become the part of Muslim brotherhood.
Irfan: Problem is not who they are and what they are. My statements here on this forum are on record and I have always maintained that they are closest to Muslims in their belief. I have never declared them Kaafir or anything like that. However, the prime reason for why they are declared non-Muslims is because they have the same belief about those who do not follow their faith and I can post here images from their books and quotes by none other than Mirza sahib himself. However, this debate has nothing to do with this thread. Some time ago there was a thread on similar topic and I duly countered the arguments with the reference from their own books and you know what happened? Jungibaaz closed that thread because there was no other way to counter the material I posted from not our books, but their very own books. There you go. So much for freedom of speech.
 
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It is often stridently claimed that the gruesome punishments being handed out by IS are not Islamic, but is that really true? This article looks at the issue, and it should make for a good discussion:

http://www.economist.com/news/inter...ishments-are-more-prevalent-muslim-world-book

Islam and punishment
By the book
Why harsh punishments are more prevalent in the Muslim world
From the print edition

From the print edition: International
there is no apology for harsh Islamic punishment. they are a fact
but there are strict rules and to a point that those who make false accusations are deterred by severe punishments as well.
what Daesh does or what Kharjaiets did in the past is completely a different story. their entire existence is based on wrong principle so whether they use lethal injection or electric chair or hanging or beheading or burning alive does'nt change the fact that what they are doing is simply what any death cult will do or Nazis will do. there are no parallels..

the act and method of killing doesnt have a religious label otherwise you would have called Burning of Joan of Arc as Christian burning. something which the Desh did to Jordanian pilot (may his soul rest in peace).
 
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As far as examples go, the Rashidun Caliphate and the subsequent Islamic Golden Age is example enough.

I asked for any example since after the fall of the Ottoman Empire over the last century. What you seek has not existed for hundreds of years, and the seventh century is unlikely to return anytime soon. The point has already been made and admitted that state enforcement of Islam is not a requisite for being a good Muslim, therefore there is no need for a State enforced religion in the 21st century. It is simply impossible to force down a unified interpretation down the throats of hundred of millions of practitioners of the faith composed of many shades of practices and beliefs.

there is no apology for harsh Islamic punishment. they are a fact
but there are strict rules and to a point that those who make false accusations are deterred by severe punishments as well.

The harshness of religious punishments is a fact, yes, but it is the implementation that needs to be discussed. The article argues that it is the pathetic political state of Muslim countries that provides for abuse of such punishments. The point to be understood is that religiously mandated religion is just asking for trouble, which is why present day Muslim states have it in spades. And we all suffer due to this intertwining, which, as we have established above, is not needed to be a good Muslim in the first place.
 
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Irfan: Problem is not who they are and what they are. My statements here on this forum are on record and I have always maintained that they are closest to Muslims in their belief. I have never declared them Kaafir or anything like that. However, the prime reason for why they are declared non-Muslims is because they have the same belief about those who do not follow their faith and I can post here images from their books and quotes by none other than Mirza sahib himself. However, this debate has nothing to do with this thread. Some time ago there was a thread on similar topic and I duly countered the arguments with the reference from their own books and you know what happened? Jungibaaz closed that thread because there was no other way to counter the material I posted from not our books, but their very own books. There you go. So much for freedom of speech.
lets stay on topic I see no issue with Islamic punishments

and I reject associating taliban/ Daesh acts with Islam just like no Christian will justify the acts of say Templars or Oliver Cromwell when he had the entire population of an Irish town massacred and justified it upon his Christian faith for the apologists his words left no room for
ambiguity

this is just one quote

This is a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches, who have imbrued their hands in so much innocent blood.... it will tend to prevent the effusion of blood for the future, which are satisfactory grounds to such actions, which otherwise work remorse and regret.

you see, people suffer from selective memory. now some will say hey come on Chrisitan world has moved on and is secular and all and doesnt do that

yea
yea

now it does it under the name of Atheism. or secularism. nothing changed. people or the labels are changed. the madness prevails.
 
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you see, people suffer from selective memory. now some will say hey come on Chrisitan world has moved on and is secular and all and doesnt do that

yea
yea

now it does it under the name of Atheism. or secularism. nothing changed. people or the labels are changed. the madness prevails.

Sir, what Christian majority country establishes it as the State enforced religion and prescribes Biblical punishments for crimes in the world today?
 
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The harshness of religious punishments is a fact, yes, but it is the implementation that needs to be discussed. The article argues that it is the pathetic political state of Muslim countries that provides for abuse of such punishments. .
agreed sir
cant agree more on this

the way articles like this one are worded, tend to suggest that Muslim violence is explained by the religion itself. whereas in a just Islamic system the accused gets the chance to walk away free.
when we cite the executions conducted by Taliban or Daesh etc. we should be clear that they have little or nothing to do with justice and more with fear and terror. if there was anything Islamic so such actions as claimed (by whoever) then the world would have had a problem at the magnitude of 1.5 Billion. ordinary Muslims (a subjective term that needs a separate debate) recoil with disgust at the atrocities of these terror organisations and then face the sarcasm and hatred from the civilised world for their faith.

in Saudia there are over 3,000 Pakistani including women and children languishing in Saudi jails most of them not knowing their crime, the charges and judgements are done in Arabic and they have no one to turn to. Iranian regime is no glowing example itself what to talk about Pakistan and the rest?


talking about the methods of punishments , I doubt if a capital punishment through lethal injection can be Islamically opposed or any method which is less graphic my only confusion (I say this word with due consideration) is one mode of Punishment and that is related to Adultery stoning or Lapidation which has its roots from Jewish faith. there are no Quranic or Sunnah references to this form of punishment but sadly it is practised with religious fervour in our part of the region.
 
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I asked for any example since after the fall of the Ottoman Empire over the last century. What you seek has not existed for hundreds of years, and the seventh century is unlikely to return anytime soon. .
I already replied to that:
Muslims have been at their weakest since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Why must we restrict ourselves to that particular time period for an example? And why do we even need an example? If there are flaws in my arguments and ideas, take them on directly.

As far as examples go, the Rashidun Caliphate and the subsequent Islamic Golden Age is example enough.

Democracy remained unimplementable in Europe for centuries. Does it not exist? I can not stress just how flawed this line of thinking is.

It is simply impossible to force down a unified interpretation down the throats of hundred of millions of practitioners of the faith composed of many shades of practices and beliefs.
At this point you're proving that you are not at all interested in actual debate but want to stubbornly forward your own point of view and agenda and are constantly using strawman arguments to do so.

I never said ''force a unified interpretation.''


What I said was: have honest dialogue, decide what you have in common, and discuss the differences. Islam is practical enough to be implemented and used as a unifying force if there is honest dialogue and actual initiative to do so.

Secularism will not solve problems, it will simply absolve governments of the responsibility to solve them. It is therefore not a solution.
 
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