Is this the end of Islam? or there is some silver-lining?

[FaujHistorian]

Algeria for example - independence war against French, civil war against Islamists in the 90's, just last year a mass of hostages were taken at some oil field facility prompting massive Algerian intervention.

Bahrain - rebellion suppressed with Saudi help, last year i think. You gave it fine, i agree it looks fine on the outside, but if there was enough tension to start an uprising.....

Indonesia - Free Aceh Movement, Papua rebels.

Bosnia - massive riots in the recent months due to ineffectiveness of the government

Off the top of my head....

let it be audio bhai

Kiyon iradah hai indo-Pak war of words ka?

 

[waz]

Algeria for example - independence war against French, civil war against Islamists in the 90's, just last year a mass of hostages were taken at some oil field facility prompting massive Algerian intervention.

Bahrain - rebellion suppressed with Saudi help, last year i think. You gave it fine, i agree it looks fine on the outside, but if there was enough tension to start an uprising.....

Indonesia - Free Aceh Movement, Papua rebels.

Bosnia - massive riots in the recent months due to ineffectiveness of the government

Off the top of my head....

Algeria- The independence war was in the 1950's i.e. decades ago and the war with the Islamists (90's) is over with them being crushed by the army. Many of them also defected. The hostage taking episode was a rarity and their leader is dead now as well.

Bahrain- Yes there is tension, but the forces holding it, combined with regional neighbours like Saudi, like you stated, prevent conflict. You might get the odd flair up.

Indonesia- Aceh movement has been pacified and deals signed which lead to regional autonomy. It is very peaceful there now.

Bosnia- Riots happen pretty much everywhere. It was not prolonged (4th-8th of Feb) nor did it threaten the fabric of the state. They died down with the lack of participation, this was also reported by many Balkan papers.

 

[A.Rafay]

We need Reformation and democracy in all Islamic Nations. Islam as a religion will do fine.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The confusion here is that does Islam accept these changes in the laws or lifestyles that has been written and that some Muslim countries adopt? please tell me which wing of Islam other than wahhabi is open to change -.

change what and why?
what purpose a change will serve?

what branch or faith of Islam is open to change?

of fundamentals of Islam? (Oneness of God, Prophet hood, life After death, judgement..etc) NO one

interpretation still has to conforms to the fundamentals of Islam. in what?
social life.
business, marriage, divorce, professions, possessions, civil and criminal law, international obligations and law etc. where old laws that were decided can be improved upon based on the current times.
examples are blood donation, internet banking, hedging , inheritance, dealing in stock and trade. use of modern methods in science for cure. Islam doesnt stand in the way Spanish Muslims were conducting eye operations during the European darkages

Clerics and Mullahs are no excuse. neither are the child molesting Catholic priests..

the saying of Muhammad is , "seek knowledge even if you have to go to china" (back then China was center of knowledge for that part of the world ..

there is a Quranic verse saying "Tohifo Fe Deen" understand and study the faith.. knowledge and discovery leads to what? change of ideas and way we live our lives .. Islam doesnt stand in the way.


so separating it from state affairs is pointless exercise. what you do have to watch out is ensure that your lifestyle and conduct with society is not against the fundamentals of Islam. its a just like your constitution.. all new laws must back up each other and shouldnt be on an opposite track otherwise you have a chaos

 

[acid rain]

@Audio,

Most or all of the central asian republics, most or all of the african republics under islamic magreb are reeling under extremism pressure.

@waz, definition here as turmoil is total civil war as in syria, iraq, somalia, S. sudan etc.

I wouldnt call nigeria, egypt etc as stable. Neither would I call maldives stable where wahhabi forces are bringing on pressure.

 

[waz]

@Audio,

Most or all of the central asian republics, most or all of the african republics under islamic magreb are reeling under extremism pressure.

@waz, definition here as turmoil is total civil war as in syria, iraq, somalia, S. sudan etc.

I wouldnt call nigeria, egypt etc as stable. Neither would I call maldives stable where wahhabi forces are bringing on pressure.

I've been to many of the Central Asian republics, they are certainly not reeling under extremism mate. In actual fact Islamists are terrified of the military there, secret police and the iron hand of the dictators in charge of those countries. The US itself has criticised human rights abuses by them.

South Sudan is not a Muslim country. It's majority Christian, and Christian tribes fight each other now.

Egypt is stable under the general now. The Maldives is fine and the Wahabis don't pose the threat that people make out. Sufism is dominant there.

 

[Audio]

Algeria- The independence war was in the 1950's i.e. decades ago and the war with the Islamists (90's) is over with them being crushed by the army. Many of them also defected. The hostage taking episode was a rarity and their leader is dead now as well.

Bahrain- Yes there is tension, but the forces holding it, combined with regional neighbours like Saudi, like you stated, prevent conflict. You might get the odd flair up.

Indonesia- Aceh movement has been pacified and deals signed which lead to regional autonomy. It is very peaceful there now.

Bosnia- Riots happen pretty much everywhere. It's not prolonged nor did it threaten the fabric of the state.

Man, i really like you. But, here, you are oversimplifying.

Algeria-it's not a rarity. In 2003 32 European tourists were kidnapped. 2007 2 car bombs in the capital city. In 2008 a suicide bomber killed 40 people.

Bahrain-here it needs to be pointed out we don't take into account what happens with KSA, ie,if it will still be able to repeat the "friendly invasion" if any turmoil happens again.

Indonesia-Here i'll admit i don't really know that much, but i do know you didn't debunk Papuan movement, as ACEH and it are not the same.

Bosnia-Ethnic division burried under NATO boot. Add to it completly useless, divisive and divided into cantons, government.
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I'm leaving this thread....it's just too sensationalist for me.

 

[acid rain]

I've been to many of the Central Asian republics, they are certainly not reeling under extremism mate. In actual fact Islamists are terrified of the military there, secret police and the iron hand of the dictators in charge of those countries. The US itself has criticised human rights abuses by them.

South Sudan is not a Muslim country. It's majority Christian, and Christian tribes fight each other now.

Egypt is stable under the general now. The Maldives is fine and the Wahabis don't pose the threat that people make out. Sufism is dominant there.

That's where the definition of stable and unstable lie mate, Tajiks, Uzbeks etc are filling up isis, ttp, aq ranks, military rule, dicatorship and an iron rod does not confer with being stable in the true definition - we have ample proofs of what happeens after a period of time to states that happen to be under such forces.
Egypt under Sisi is a time bomb on the verge of exploding - they just handed their ousted PM a life sentence and 500 or so of his followers death sentences.

Maldives is being bombarded by waahabi preachers from saudi arabia - we are cringing to hear unfortunate news of yet another armed islamist militia takeover of maldives.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

The moment Islam opens up to debate, questions and criticism will be the day there will be a renaissance in Islam, labeling anyone questioning Islam as munafiq, apostate etc will only help in leaving its control in the hands of the mullah. Claiming Islam to be the perfect religion that does not require any change or that it's better than all other religions and does not have to tolerate or take inspiration from any other faith will not help - because what's on display in the name of Islam right now is far from perfect.

That is a perfect example of not knowing what you're talking about. Crucial axioms in Islam that are not up for debate are few. The bulk, and I mean a number approaching 100%, has always been up for debate, especially in fiqh and sharii3ah. In the previous few centuries, we're run out of scholars who could take the debates forward, and people like you and me who don't know their rihgt foot from their left in religion, have assumed the right of parley.

You mean here that the millions of pupils who study in madrassah's and who spend 12 -15 years of their lives reading the Quran over and over again fail to interpret it correctly? I find that astonishing.

They are never meant to. Only a few of them learn even a subset of the sciences that are prerequired.

 

[INDIC]

let it be audio bhai

Kiyon iradah hai indo-Pak war of words ka?

Tera audio bhai desi nahi hai, Urdu kyon bol raha hai.

 

[waz]

Man, i really like you. But, here, you are oversimplifying.

Algeria-it's not a rarity. In 2003 32 European tourists were kidnapped. 2007 2 car bombs in the capital city. In 2008 a suicide bomber killed 40 people.

Bahrain-here it needs to be pointed out we don't take into account what happens with KSA, ie,if it will still be able to repeat the "friendly invasion"

Indonesia-Here i'll admit i don't really know that much,but i don't know you didn't debunk Papuan movement, as ACEH and it are not the same.

Bosnia-Ethnic division burried under NATO boot. Add to it completly useless, divisive and divided into cantons, government.
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I'm leaving this thread....it's just too sensationalist for me.

Thanks for the compliment and you are a great poster yourself.

Algeria- fair play and those were destructive attacks but again the timelines are lengthy as we sit in 2014.

Bahrain - I'd agree but I don't see anything happening in Saudi.

Indonesia- remains very peaceful. I did write up something about the OPM but it got lost whilst I edited. The movement is simply way too small, and their campaign doesn't even really amount to a minor irritant.

Bosnia- I'd say NATO was the stabilising force and yes it is divided up. But with pressures galore from Croatia and Serbia to conform, the country is stable. The key element in this is the accession to the EU which is desired by all the countries in the region, Bosnia included. Once this happens it's going to be a tight and peaceful ship.

You are spot on about this thread. It's giving me a headache now and yes it is sensationalist beyond belief.

 

[FaujHistorian]

we're run out of scholars who could take the debates forward, and people like you and me who don't know their rihgt foot from their left in religion, have assumed the right of parley.

.

beg to disagree.

ayatuulahs from iran and rabbit rabid mullahs from ksa do know their rihgt foot from their left in religion,

Tera audio bhai desi nahi hai, Urdu kyon bol raha hai.

behn?
from?

 

[INDIC]

behn?
from?

bhai hi hai, usi se pooch lo.

 

[Burger Boy]

Islam will probably exist in some form for about another millennium or so...

but nothing lasts forever....and we were here before Islam, and we will be here after Islam's time comes to pass.

 

[jamahir]

is this the end of islam?? not at all. in fact, the true socialist islam is now more prominent. the enemies of islam are now clearly identified. i see people from east to west either knowing or shouting the slogans "allah, muammar, libya... bas" and "allah, sooriya, bashar oo bas".

the western citizens are opening admiring the determination of the syrian people who have been fighting war against western-government-supported invaders for more than three years, despite martyrdom of more than 150,000 people. the baath revolutionary system of syria is of course derived from islam ( and christianity ). as against the western attempts of portraying the syria war as sunni vs shia, the war is really true islam ( socialist ) versus fake-muslims ( al-gay-da, talibunnies, other deobandi, muslim brotherhood, hamas, irani ayotollahs ). isn't the president of syria muslim?? isn't his beautiful wife, asma, muslim too??

2. same goes for iraq. the muslim fighters of saddam hussain are still fighting the western puppets ( iran, hamas, etc ) for 11 years now. and they are now again in the spotlight. and they are gaining ground.

3. same goes for libya.

4. what about pakistan?? don't the world's people know that the mostly muslim pakistan army and society are fighting against supposed "muslims" ( talibunnies )??

5. the world also can see the difference between syria, muammar's libya, saddam's iraq, arafat's palestine, present pakistan... all on one side... and iran, saudia, indian muslims, indonesia, brunei... all on the other side.

it is capitalism that is really being defeated. it is socialism that is rising. and islam was the first socialist revolution.so how can islam end??