Is this the end of Islam? or there is some silver-lining?

[jamahir]

It will be in Paradise where all pain, suffering, and mis-understanding is removed. This pilgrimage we call life is beset with trials , tribulations, this vale of tears.

true words, but i am a happy-go-lucky person so i see it like this...

most sufferings are not written in the skies, dictated by nature, and to be imposed on some person for life. sufferings are political, social, economic, in the "here and now", caused by wrong political systems. therefore to remove sufferings one must change the political systems and that is only possible through revolution... call that ancient egypt, christianity, islam, renaissance, french revolution, russian revolution, baath revolution, occupy movements...

i have written a bit more on this in my intro thread today (hello and many salaams... to comrades and otherwise... ), especially in my reply to truthseeker.

Every religion was political if you go back few centuries.

Why?

Modern system of politics and governance had not take shape.

However in 2014, no religion should be mixed with politics.

Politics is dirt, religion is petrol/fuel for our soul.

Once you put dirt in that petrol, your soul gets corrupted.

Hope you understand.

yes, i understand. but all these fights are mostly because of nationalism, dividing the world with artificial and unneeded boundaries ( national borders ). the french revolution should have created the beginning towards a world government but it ended in creating the concept of "republics" which then as you alluded turned into the modern "nations". mistake upon mistake

now that people are again interested in space ( spacex, mars one ), interested in non-capitalist future ( occupy... ), sick and tired of war crimes ( google "libya rebel atrocity" )... they should think that from space, we see no national boundaries, no border security posts... so what is the point in maintaining armies and visas??

there is a song in the hindi film "refugee". it goes "panchi, nadiya, pavan ke jhonkay... koi sarhad na inhe rokay". meaning, "the birds fly the world free, rivers don't respect borders, nor does wind".

religion... i can say that since islam ( and christianity ) are socialism, spiritual, political, practical... they are part of the solution. but of course, the leaders of religion must be scientific people, of wisdom. they must be against superstitions, rituals, prayer-mindedness, capitalism etc. they must talk common sense, acceptable to any sensible and independent human.

that is idealism, of course, but when problems are created by groups of people, it has to be solved by groups of people, yes?? politics need not be a bad word. it is the duty of every person to contribute to the good of society, by practical political participation. what else should they do if not that??

 

[Arya Desa]

If you believe our friend @Islam shall be the winner , then no this is not the end of islam.

 

[Meengla]

1) I think the OP is over-reacting about the plight of the Muslims. Indeed, Muslims have a terrible 'image' problems but I don't think Muslims, on average, are much worse off than the whole Latin America continent or almost the whole continent of Africa.
2) The 'image' of Muslim was different--was shaped differently enough to be perceived enough to be an ally of the 'democratic' and 'free' (and also Christian West) especially during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. And even now, IF it suits the American-led Western media, the 'image' can be quickly changed to a much more favorable one.
3) Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity. Let's go back to where the Christiandom was 600 years ago. I believe, the mass murders, the genocide, the plundering done in the name of Christ over the last couple of millennia would at least match, if not greatly exceed, what is rightly or wrongly blamed on Muslims. Islam and Muslims too will evolve--and thanks to the easy access to the information now, will evolve a lot faster.
4) Due to the strategic location of the Islamic world--from the western shores of Africa to the Central Asian regions--hugging a rich north and sitting on some great energy/trade routes--it would be unwise of HUMANITY to look at the Islamic world as an alien entity. It would, even in short term, be more harmful to have a billion alienated humans in such a mass of people in such a large geographic location.
5) Now this may sound very controversial but I have to say this: The modern ideals for human beings is the Western Civilization minus its imperial tendencies and minus its (receding) environmental degradations. And barring some nutjobs Muslim expats, I think Muslims can, do and will embrace the Western Civilization.

 

[jamahir]

1)especially during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.

there was no soviet "occupation" of afghanistan. the soviets had come to help a brother socialist nation... the democratic republic of afghanistan... because of the armed conspiracy and invasion by the western bloc ( usa, britain, india, zia's pakistan, khomenei's iran, al qaeda, deoband... ).

was president najibullah a soviet?? or was cosmonaut abdul ahad mohmand??

we must speak of history in correct terms.

 

[Mitro]

Let see what Quran say about this suffering

Verily,we shall put you to test with some fear and hunger and with some lost of wealth ,lives and offspring .And (o Muhammad) convey good tiding to those who are patient ,who say when inflicted by hardship ,"verily we are of god and verily to him we shall return" upon them is the blessing of Allah and his mercy. (2:155)

Stay steadfast my fellow brother in Islam good tiding is near and inshallah will be enjoying fruit of jannah with blessing and mercy of Allah taala

 

[qamar1990]

From Morocco to Indonesia, or say from Atlantic to Pacific, entire Islamic World is up in flames, or in poverty, or under despotic oppressive governments...and Muslim masses are in misery, and utter hopelessness. Syria and Iraq are totally destroyed by civil war, superpowers have invaded, plundered, and destroyed many nations of Islamosphere. Israel is currently bombing Gaza, a territory it already illegally occupies and has colonized it for decades. On political front, Muslim masses are deeply divided and there is no order. From the dreams of Islamic Caliphate, to the vision of extreme secularism--all of the political thoughts are colliding within the fold of Islam. Muslims are globally being painted as "the problem" or as the "other" in the equation of civilized vs the other. Seems like entire world is on one side, and Muslims are on other. Any hope of empowerment due to revolutions in Arab World are turned completely upside down---with even status-quo forces returning back to power with even worse oppression.

I was just wondering, is this the worst Islam/Islamic World has ever seen? People would bring Mongol Destruction but as a student of history, I'd not buy this argument. Mongol Destruction of Baghdad just shifted the power-center of Islam from Arab-Persians to Turks. Even after Mongol destruction, Islamic World quickly regained its position of being the superpower/top dog of the world under the leadership of the Islamic Turks (Ottoman Empires, Mughals, Timurids etc were the greatest/most-powerful/largest empires of their time...and all established by Islamic Turks). Islamic World remained the most and/or one-of-the-most powerful civilization on Earth for centuries to come after Mongol invasion. But today, forget about being the most powerful, Muslim countries are marching towards being the worst, the least powerful, and most pathetic amongst all available competition (China, India, Europe/America (West), Latin America, and Far East etc).

So again, are we living through the worst of Islam today? There seems to be no hope. No sight of recovering back. Things are getting worse and even more worse by the hour. Just today, read the article where Prince Bandar was quoted saying "1 billion Sunnis have had enough of the Shia. There will be a time when "May God help the Shia" would be reality in Middle-East" (He said it to American Intelligence Chief before 9/11. I guess those days have come).

Add to all that the sectarian hate and intra-Muslim bloodshed. Sectarian hate and intra-Muslim conflict has never been more worse than its today. And this is the time when when millions of Muslims have already been killed in past 50 years due to internal civil wars and outside invasions and so on.

So, is it the worse of Islam the history has ever seen? Is is the end of Islam beyond the point of recovery? Or is there any silver-lining out there for Muslims of the world?

(Please no mudslinging with secular vs Islamist one-liners etc. Try to be more critical in your responses).


@dexter @WebMaster @Aeronaut @Abu Nasar @Akheilos @Leader @Jazzbot @PWFI @HRK @RAMPAGE
@MastanKhan @Armstrong @Zizou @Jungibaaz @GreenFalcon @Evil Flare @rockstar08 @farhanalee7 @Multani @Zarvan @al-Hasani @Areesh @SHAMK9 @Ulla @Kaan @Devil Soul @Indos @KAL-EL @JonAsad @chauvunist @Marshmallow @Yzd Khalifa @Hazzy997 @Sinan @Azeri @rmi5 @haman10 @Serpentine @CENTCOM @Pukhtoon @ghilzai @Icarus @Chinese-Dragon @Arabian Legend @DESERT FIGHTER @Irfan Baloch @kalu_miah @idune @Al-zakir @Mav3rick @RazPaK @Alpha1 @Neptune @razgriz19 @KingMamba @Luffy 500 @AUz @Hyperion @Aether @Jaanbaz @Pakistani Exile @nair @Ayush @Manticore @Oscar @Fulcrum15 @blain2 @Chak Bamu @RazPaK @Informant @Imran Khan @DESERT FIGHTER @Umair Nawaz @qamar1990 @Abu Nasar @Slav Defence @Secur @slapshot @batmannow @BATMAN @MastanKhan @S.U.R.B. @RescueRanger @Raja.Pakistani @Rajput_Pakistani @Pukhtoon @pk_baloch @Patriots @Pakistanisage @Mugwop @Mirzay @Men in Green @Luftwaffe @LoveIcon @liontk @JonAsad @ghazaliy2k @Durrak @Devil Soul @Developereo @Darth Vader @Desert Fox @Cheetah786 @cb4 @Bratva @balixd @Air marshal@A.Rafay @Proudpakistaniguy
@SOHEIL @Targon @BLACKEAGLE @BDforever @Sher Malang @Afghan-India @TOPGUN @Rafi @@Donatello @wasm95 @Metanoia @@cabatli_53 @graphican @Mosamania @@American Eagle @BronzePlaque @@BordoEnes @@Malik Alashter @@Bubblegum Crisis @@LegionnairE @RiazHaq @AgNoStiC MuSliM @Nihonjin1051 @Marwat Khan Lodhi @OCguy @Thoryalai Zazai @@A1Kaid @Jigs @Awesome @Chinese-Dragon @Hyperion


@gambit I'd also like to hear what do you have to say about the issue..

---------------------

Please keep this as troll-free as possible.

well this is certainly not the end of islam, i expect that in the next 10-15 years we see stability in the muslim world, lot of these problems you speak of for example the arab spring are orchestrated in the west to bring instability to the middle east. in reality there is no shia-sunni fights, up till the last decade we never eve heard of a any major conflict between shias and sunnis simply because of the their difference. all this shia-sunni fighting is being created by the west to divide and conquer the muslims, we need to stick out and not go crazy. we need to get rid of the monarchies in our counties and bring democracy and freedom. the arab muslim world will definitely be strong again its only been a 150 years since we fell off the camels back. the muslims didn't adopt cruelty like the europeans so they got left behind.

Let see what Quran say about this suffering

Verily,we shall put you to test with some fear and hunger and with some lost of wealth ,lives and offspring .And (o Muhammad) convey good tiding to those who are patient ,who say when inflicted by hardship ,"verily we are of god and verily to him we shall return" upon them is the blessing of Allah and his mercy. (2:155)

Stay steadfast my fellow brother in Islam good tiding is near and inshallah will be enjoying fruit of jannah with blessing and mercy of Allah taala

lol its crazy that a hindu has to remind a muslim what the quran says lol

 

[he-man]

All right what i am gonna write will piss off a lot of people but those who have seen what i write know that i am an atheist and write against hindutva or khalistanis regularly too so please don't take an offence,,,,i will just highlight what seems to be problem from a layman's perspective.

1)The quaran as a unifying factor makes every muslim from anywhere sympathetic towards other even when they should not.By this way no more stupid people will join the isis like bandwagon and further malign islam.The global brotherhood envisaged in quran is all nice and good but it has its share of problems as we can see,,,,,,,the world has progressed to nation states and its not applicable now,the early people understand it the better it will be.

2)The verses in quran

Let me clarify that there were such verses and maybe even more gory verses in old testament too but christians changed that to new testament and got rid of old one in the name of progress or whatever and it actually was a very good idea.

Christians kill and maim too though but not in the name of religion but for resources and power projection,,their societies are more or less free and u can do what u please irrespective of ur religion or sect or whatever.


While in quran there are both types of verses,,,good peaceful ones written when there was no war and the war mongering ones written at the times of war understandably.The problem comes as a number of these verses clash with one another and have opposite meaning!!??
So which ones to follow?

Answer--------Almost all the scholars of quran agree that in terms of a clash u have to follow the ones written later in the quran,,,later as in based on the time period when they were written and not necessarily on the basis of page number and unfortunately later verses were written during the wartime,,,,,and this confuses a lot of people and maybe a reason for brainwash a lot of people,,i don't know.Its possible though.


So ultimately whats required is the new interpretation of quran(not new quran ,please) where in the peaceful verses take the major role over the ones written over the wartime so that mindset of some people can change and terrorists are unable to whip up the passions of people by quoting some verses which were written in some context 1400 years ago.I say this as i feel this will seriously change things and is easily doable.It will definitely have an impact.

 

[qamar1990]

All right what i am gonna write will piss off a lot of people but those who have seen what i write know that i am an atheist and write against hindutva or khalistanis regularly too so please don't take an offence,,,,i will just highlight what seems to be problem from a layman's perspective.

1)The quaran as a unifying factor makes every muslim from anywhere sympathetic towards other even when they should not.By this way no more stupid people will join the isis like bandwagon and further malign islam.The global brotherhood envisaged in quran is all nice and good but it has its share of problems as we can see,,,,,,,the world has progressed to nation states and its not applicable now,the early people understand it the better it will be.

2)The verses in quran

Let me clarify that there were such verses and maybe even more gory verses in old testament too but christians changed that to new testament and got rid of old one in the name of progress or whatever and it actually was a very good idea.

Christians kill and maim too though but not in the name of religion but for resources and power projection,,their societies are more or less free and u can do what u please irrespective of ur religion or sect or whatever.


While in quran there are both types of verses,,,good peaceful ones written when there was no war and the war mongering ones written at the times of war understandably.The problem comes as a number of these verses clash with one another and have opposite meaning!!??
So which ones to follow?

Answer--------Almost all the scholars of quran agree that in terms of a clash u have to follow the ones written later in the quran,,,later as in based on the time period when they were written and not necessarily on the basis of page number and unfortunately later verses were written during the wartime,,,,,and this confuses a lot of people and maybe a reason for brainwash a lot of people,,i don't know.Its possible though.


So ultimately whats required is the new interpretation of quran(not new quran ,please) where in the peaceful verses take the major role over the ones written over the wartime so that mindset of some people can change and terrorists are unable to whip up the passions of people by quoting some verses which were written in some context 1400 years ago.I say this as i feel this will seriously change things and is easily doable.It will definitely have an impact.

what you said has already been done.
only education amongst the masses will end terrorism till then people will continue to get brainwashed by like of fazulllah

 

[he-man]

what you said has already been done.
only education amongst the masses will end terrorism till then people will continue to get brainwashed by like of fazulllah

unfortunately educated people(not in terms of degrees only) are too far and few,,,,,,,so i don't have much hope.
my point no 2 is the major point i think which i have known after talking with lot of people

 

[jamahir]

but those who have seen what i write know that i am an atheist and write against hindutva

the world has progressed to nation states

if you are truly atheist, then you should be favoring the socialist view of removal of nation-states and replacing them with a single human governing system. the idea of nation-states is not progress, it is regress.

So ultimately whats required is the new interpretation of quran

no need. there have been great leaders and revolutions in modern times who have interpreted the quran in the true way... jamal abdul nasser, muammar gaddafi ( and the al fatah revolution of 1969 ), the baath revolutions in iraq and syria etc.

muammar gaddafi is also the present imaam of all muslims, and the green book is also a furtherance of quran.

unfortunately educated people(not in terms of degrees only) are too far and few

abolutely correct.

so i don't have much hope.

you are wrong, my friend

 

[he-man]

if you are truly atheist, then you should be favoring the socialist view of removal of nation-states and replacing them with a single human governing system. the idea of nation-states is not progress, it is regress.



no need. there have been great leaders and revolutions in modern times who have interpreted the quran in the true way... jamal abdul nasser, muammar gaddafi ( and the al fatah revolution of 1969 ), the baath revolutions in iraq and syria etc.

muammar gaddafi is also the present imaam of all muslims, and the green book is also a furtherance of quran.



abolutely correct.



you are wrong, my friend

thats not possible as everything in this world,,,even animal kingdom run on only one thing and thats merit.

evolution of the strong and socialism is opposite of that hence impossible to implement and unnatural

 

[New]

If you believe our friend @Islam shall be the winner , then no this is not the end of islam.

Seriously dude, what kinda name is that, are you kidding me "Islam shall be the winner", I must had been drunk.
Even me myself am not sure why did I chose that name

 

[jamahir]

thats not possible as everything in this world,,,even animal kingdom run on only one thing and thats merit.

what does that mean??

evolution of the strong and socialism is opposite of that hence impossible to implement and unnatural

socialism is the most natural thing. it should be automatic. how can ideas of justice through humanitarian progress be unnatural?? as for "strong"... the soviet union was the most powerful society in history, and even it was only partially socialist, on the way to true communism.

it is capitalism and ritualistic, prayer-bound, mythology-bound religions that are unnatural. unjust exploitation of humans and ecology cannot be automatic, and if it becomes so, it should be eradicated. you will agree, i think.

 

[user1]

All right what i am gonna write will piss off a lot of people but those who have seen what i write know that i am an atheist and write against hindutva or khalistanis regularly too so please don't take an offence,,,,i will just highlight what seems to be problem from a layman's perspective.

1)The quaran as a unifying factor makes every muslim from anywhere sympathetic towards other even when they should not.By this way no more stupid people will join the isis like bandwagon and further malign islam.The global brotherhood envisaged in quran is all nice and good but it has its share of problems as we can see,,,,,,,the world has progressed to nation states and its not applicable now,the early people understand it the better it will be.

2)The verses in quran

Let me clarify that there were such verses and maybe even more gory verses in old testament too but christians changed that to new testament and got rid of old one in the name of progress or whatever and it actually was a very good idea.

Christians kill and maim too though but not in the name of religion but for resources and power projection,,their societies are more or less free and u can do what u please irrespective of ur religion or sect or whatever.


While in quran there are both types of verses,,,good peaceful ones written when there was no war and the war mongering ones written at the times of war understandably.The problem comes as a number of these verses clash with one another and have opposite meaning!!??
So which ones to follow?

Answer--------Almost all the scholars of quran agree that in terms of a clash u have to follow the ones written later in the quran,,,later as in based on the time period when they were written and not necessarily on the basis of page number and unfortunately later verses were written during the wartime,,,,,and this confuses a lot of people and maybe a reason for brainwash a lot of people,,i don't know.Its possible though.


So ultimately whats required is the new interpretation of quran(not new quran ,please) where in the peaceful verses take the major role over the ones written over the wartime so that mindset of some people can change and terrorists are unable to whip up the passions of people by quoting some verses which were written in some context 1400 years ago.I say this as i feel this will seriously change things and is easily doable.It will definitely have an impact.

Dear Sir, it doesn't matter whether the verses were revealed earlier or later, in every case, Muslims are commanded to use restraint and act in self-defence and stop the hostilities once the other side stops the hostilities, aggression and oppression. What you need to do is to read a few verses before and after the verse in question in order to understand the context.

But, there will always be people who will pick and choose the verses and distort the meanings:

it is He who has sent this Scripture down to you [Prophet]. Some of its verses are definite in meaning ––these are the cornerstone of the Scripture –– and others are ambiguous. The perverse at heart eagerly pursue the ambiguities in their attempt to make trouble and to pin down a specific meaning of their own: only God knows the true meaning.Those firmly grounded in knowledge say, ‘We believe in it: it is all from our Lord’ –– only those with real perception will take heed –– (3:7)

More regarding ambiguous verses:

Or do they say, ‘He has devised it’? (Quran) Say, ‘Then produce a sura like it, and call on anyone you can beside God if you are telling the truth.’ (10:38) But they are denying what they cannot comprehend –– its prophecy has yet to be fulfilled for them. In the same way, those before them refused to believe –– see what was the end of those evildoers! (10:39)

Every prophecy has its fixed time to be fulfilled: you will come to realize this.’ (6:67)

 

[he-man]

what does that mean??



socialism is the most natural thing. it should be automatic. how can ideas of justice through humanitarian progress be unnatural?? as for "strong"... the soviet union was the most powerful society in history, and even it was only partially socialist, on the way to true communism.

it is capitalism and ritualistic, prayer-bound, mythology-bound religions that are unnatural. unjust exploitation of humans and ecology cannot be automatic, and if it becomes so, it should be eradicated. you will agree, i think.

once again u don't understand.

even in the animals the strongest one leads the back,,,gets the best female and so on and so forth.
thats what i meant.

and for progress the society needs to be based on merit and performance and not equivalence.
equivalence maybe a romantic word but impossible to implement as no two people are alike.

Dear Sir, it doesn't matter whether the verses were revealed earlier or later, in every case, Muslims are commanded to use restraint and act in self-defence and stop the hostilities once the other side stops the hostilities, aggression and oppression. What you need to do is to read a few verses before and after the verse in question in order to understand the context.

But, there will always be people who will pick and choose the verses and distort the meanings:

it is He who has sent this Scripture down to you [Prophet]. Some of its verses are definite in meaning ––these are the cornerstone of the Scripture –– and others are ambiguous. The perverse at heart eagerly pursue the ambiguities in their attempt to make trouble and to pin down a specific meaning of their own: only God knows the true meaning.Those firmly grounded in knowledge say, ‘We believe in it: it is all from our Lord’ –– only those with real perception will take heed –– (3:7)

More regarding ambiguous verses:

Or do they say, ‘He has devised it’? (Quran) Say, ‘Then produce a sura like it, and call on anyone you can beside God if you are telling the truth.’ (10:38) But they are denying what they cannot comprehend –– its prophecy has yet to be fulfilled for them. In the same way, those before them refused to believe –– see what was the end of those evildoers! (10:39)

Every prophecy has its fixed time to be fulfilled: you will come to realize this.’ (6:67)

i am not finding fault at ur argument but i hold my ground on my observation.

it all depends on the interpretation and u can confirm with anyone that later verses have more power than ones written before.
due to that mullahs brainwash the people into submission and thats wrong,,,just palin wrong.

thats why i say ulema or whatever should come out with a brand new interpretation,,,its the need of hour