Is patriotism in India and Pakistan defined by hate for each other??

[313ghazi]

If one were to believe many of this forum's postings, patriotism for Indians and Pakistanis is mainly defined by hate and contempt for each other. Rather than progress in human terms together as two similar South Asian countries, India and Pakistan have been on constant collision course since 1947.

I personally believe in friendship projects like 'Aman ki asha' and cross-border music and film projects. In fact I believe in a common human spaceflight program. Rather than costly military programs aimed at each other I believe in resources being employed for the benefits of the common man in either country. Rather than mutual hates at government level, I would like to see similar progressive political systems in the central governments of either country.

What is your opinion??

Note : I am not including other South Asian countries because they don't have that much controversy with either India or Pakistan.

---

@Zibago @django @Mentee @RealNapster @Moonlight @waz @I.R.A @Spring Onion

I disagree with your opinion. Our patriotism is not defined by "anti Indianess". The only place that is a measure of patriotism is in the right wing Indian press.

I do agree in the need for cross cultural contact, for confidence building measures, but I don't think any of these can ever put the issue of Kashmir in the rear view mirror. Kashmir is more than a territorial dispute, it's a trust issue.

 

[Hamza913]

Even interreligious marriages between Hindus and Muslims should be normalized

If that ever happens, I'm denouncing my citizenship, getting a non-Pakistani wife and will permanently live in said wife's country and adopt her culture wholesale, so my children will never have the embarrassment of being associated with a culture that normalised such idiocy.

 

[jamahir]

There are preset rules of observing human behavior both Collective and individual.

Observe their dealings with money and how they travel and adapt in neutral sorroundings. You will See the differences.

If you are so specifically talking of money I will then mention socialism.

 

[Hamza913]

That is why I stress that Indians and Pakistanis should adopt a similar political system ( Direct Democracy ). They can remain individual countries but their trust deficit will be removed.

I (along with most Pakistanis) would prefer if Pakistan ruled by Sharia.

 

[El Sidd]

If you are so specifically talking of money I will then mention socialism.

Socialism does not work.

 

[django]

I disagree. The differences between India and Pakistan are similar to North Korea and South Korea.

In the case of korea we are talking the same people.

Have you ever seen Serbians and Bosnians?
That's what real hatred looks like

Outside of the subcontinent Pakistanis and Indians get along better than with any other group of people

Except Serbians and Bosniaks are racially and linguistically the same folk, lol, true some folk from adjacent areas of Radcliffe line get along, but no one goes the extra mile to develop friendship with say some Madrasi etc, hope you realise this young fellow.

 

[jamahir]

No, they're MUCH bigger.

This is part of the problem, you guys keep saying "wE r dE sAME" when we're clearly not, and it agitates a lot of us (especially Pashtuns, Baluchis, Hazara's and people from GB).

In India too, a Bihari and a Kashmiri are "different" from a Malayali and a Bengali.

These are minor matters.

lol what is this bullshit?

Pakistanis are completely different to Indians.

We have nothing in common with you Indians.

You are a false flagger. Remove your Pakistani flags.

Even if @Krishnan is a false-flagger how is he wrong?? He is not being hateful.

 

[django]

lol what is this bullshit?

Pakistanis are completely different to Indians.

We have nothing in common with you Indians.

You are a false flagger. Remove your Pakistani flags.

He claims to be half awan from pindi lolllllllllll who visits his mamu all the time in Pindi lol
@Sher Shah Awan

 

[jamahir]

Socialism does not work.

Where didn't it work??

Cuba, Libya, Syria are current or recent examples of where it works.

 

[Hamza913]

You are enjoying the fruit of that by having two nations on land where Hindus were living before that...

Their were several Hindus who changed their religion under the shadow of swords in these region...

And what about those who lived in the region prior to Hinduism? You seem to have forgotten about those people.

Incorrect, most Muslims from Pakistan and Hindustan are a mix between foreign invaders and converted locals who intermarried with each other. Converted locals also played a critical role in the Islamic Empire's throughout the region, forming a large portion of the foot soldiers used and eventually even became part of the aristocracy. Some of the Muslim dynasties themselves were also setup by locals, with many famous Muslim figures even being indigenous to the region (e.g Sikander Shah Mir, Ahmed Shah Durrani, Tipu Sultan, etc).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pub...

"The study showed that the Muslim Gujjars differ significantly from their counterpart, the Hindu Gujjars"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pub...

"we observed a certain degree of genetic contribution from Iran to both Muslim populations"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2859343/

“The correlation between the admixture contributions from Arabia and Iran is positive, with significant correlation coefficient values”


Muhammad Bin Qasim’s army had a large number of Gujjars and Baluchis (can be read in Wink 2004, pg 201-205, it’s also cited on Wikipedia):

Muhammad bin Qasim

Babur employed large numbers of Punjabis from Pothwar into his army:

History of Gakhars

Babur had plenty of Pashtuns in his army too:

Babur's relations with Pashtun tribes

Shahbaz Khan was a Punjabi, and the Mughal emperor Akbar’s top general. He expanded the Mughal Empire greatly, participating in some of its fiercest battles. He also harshly put down rebellions in the Bengal, and revolutionised the Mughal military system so that costs could be kept down, and efficiency would be at its maximum:

Shahbaz Khan

HARKING BACK: The `guzar`named after great Kamboh general

Mahmud Ghaznavi’s military contained large numbers of Indo-Aryans, with most of them being from modern day Pakistan:

Ghaznavids had large number of Hindus in their army

The Shah Mir dynasty were a dynasty of Gujjars originally from Swat who ruled over all of Pakistani and Hindustani Kashmir, along with some other nearby territories. Their most notable ruler was Sikander Shah Mir, he earned the title of iconoclast because he was known for breaking Hindu statues/temples that belonged to his enemies:

Sultan Sikandar : The Man and the Myth - Lost Kashmiri History

Shah Mir dynasty

Ain I Akbari

The Rind dynasty were a Baluchi dynasty who ruled over southern Pakistan, and at one point even sacked Delhi.

Mir Chakar Rind

Chakar-i-Azam

Mir Chakar Khan Rind - A Warrior Hero Of Baluchistan & Punjab Provinces of Pakistan

The Muslim Kingdom of Mysore had Punjabi ancestry:

Unravelling history: Tracing Tipu Sultan’s ancestry

Ghaurid, Khiliji, Lodi, and Sur dynasties were all Pashtun (Pakistan has the worlds largest Pashtun population):

Ghurids were Pashtuns

Khaljī dynasty | Indian dynasty

Lodī dynasty

Sūr dynasty | Indian dynasty

Pashtun | people

Now please, spare us with your crap of "OH YEW GOYS R JUST FORCED CONVERTS" because it has been refuted dozens of times.

 

[jamahir]

I disagree with your opinion. Our patriotism is not defined by "anti Indianess".

That is why I specifically said "If one were to believe many of this forum's postings".

The only place that is a measure of patriotism is in the right wing Indian press.

That is also true.

I do agree in the need for cross cultural contact, for confidence building measures, but I don't think any of these can ever put the issue of Kashmir in the rear view mirror. Kashmir is more than a territorial dispute, it's a trust issue.

 

[hussain0216]

Rubbish


Rubbish


More rubbish


There was a reason Jinnah insisted on Pakistan against all odds and it was because he understood the hindu psychological state.
He understood the cross the had to bare the burden on their shoulders of 1000 years of muslim conquest

1) Jinnah understood that the hindus would seek a expression of their hindu identity outside of a plural india and would try as a majority to create a hindu india at the cost of the minority
This is happening in india today, from the erosion of muslim place names and history to the enforcement of hindu religious requirements upon minorities
Hindutva hardliners are increasingly being elected into power through the use of openly hostile speeches towards indian muslims

Pakistan is our muslim state!!


2) Kashmir, a muslim majority state was occupied by a hindu majority state against the wishes of the people and against the purpose of Partition

Creating an endless animosity



3) Lets be clear about something

HATRED FOR INDIA has given Pakistan freedom.
Lets for example say Kashmir was resolved 70 years ago

Pakistan had enough corrupt politicians and sell outs who eould only be too eager to link up with india
Even today if not for the open hostility the Sharifs and Zardaris would be in bed with indians for their own benefit

South Asia would be dominated by india, our cultures are too similar and with economic, cultural even political integration for 70 years the consequences for Pakistan being no more than a vassal state with occasional disagreement (Bangladesh) would be too great

Pakistan would never have even dared to develop Nuclear weapons nor would we have a significant military as we have today


HATE IS FREEDOM!!!
we are free from india,
we owe them nothing
We buy very little from them
We sell very little to them
We are openly hostile and as a result their is a cultural block against india

We have 150 plus nuclear warheads pointed at them
We have a significant world military directed towards a hostile india

Yes, hatred has given us freedom
We all want Kashmir resolved but india's occupation of Kashmir and the subsequent emnity towards india has been central to creating a independent Pakistan, although this is still a work in progress, it is ours, gor our people

Pakistan will indeed rise and stand snd we will play a big role in future Muslim and world history


Fcuk india!! & fcuk hindus

 

[Hamza913]

In India too, a Bihari and a Kashmiri are "different" from a Malayali and a Bengali.

These are minor matters.

Exactly, which is why your nation is an artificial one with no reason to exist if you focus on ethnic/racial justifications alone.

Agreed, ideology is the main issue and ours is far too different to yours.

 

[jamahir]

I (along with most Pakistanis) would prefer if Pakistan ruled by Sharia.

Ah, but what is "Sharia" rule?? Is there a global consensus??

 

[El Sidd]

Where didn't it work??

Cuba, Libya, Syria are current or recent examples of where it works.

When you have an example that has stood the test of Time. We shall discuss this.

Although i am pressed to ask someone who advocates humanism. What is your definition of being a nationalist or a patriot?