Iran Disputes Israeli Arms Claim

[rmi5]

The US has caused misery in the Middle East and so has Europe. You need to realize that people will use you as an example when you criticize your country. It's normal to criticize the Iranian government, I spent lots of time criticizing leaderships in Arab nations. When it comes to national security the same people who praise you for criticizing your nation will be against you. Once the economy in Europe declines resource rich nations will be attacked, up next is either Iran or the gulf arab nations and it seems you're delusional about it. If you criticize the Iranian government then get rid of the double standard and criticize whomever else deserves to be criticized or else people will become suspicious of you.

Look, I understood your problem. your problem is that you have absolutely no idea of WTH is going on ME. try to go and stay there for a couple of years, then I am sure that all of your delusions would fade and your point of view would turn into something close to mine or Abii. I am even ready to bet about it with you. Criticizing Europe or US has nothing to do with criticizing those stupid animal rulers of ME. the problem of ME comes from its people, and their sick mentality, and as long as you try not to accept it and blame others, the situation would not change. I am not saying that others have not ruined anything in ME, but the most part of problem is caused by ME people.

 

[Falcon29]

Look, I understood your problem. your problem is that you have absolutely no idea of WTH is going on ME. try to go and stay there for a couple of years, then I am sure that all of your delusions would fade and your point of view would turn into something close to mine or Abii. I am even ready to bet about it with you. Criticizing Europe or US has nothing to do with criticizing those stupid animal rulers of ME. the problem of ME comes from its people, and their sick mentality, and as long as you try not to accept it and blame others, the situation would not change. I am not saying that others have not ruined anything in ME, but the most part of problem is caused by ME people.

I've been there, part of it is the rulers and the other part is the West. Of course with rulers like we have in our Arab nations it produces a lot of ignorance amongst the population. Except in areas where there is plenty of oil, that doesn't mean gulf Arabs are much more educated, they just have way more opportunities and leaders who do a good job domestically but when it comes to political freedom and foreign policy I don't favor them much. And then we have Islamists, yes, some Islamists are insane people with no clear objectives. But, a good portion and the majority are well educated people with clear goals and objectives. I can tell you Gaza is not like the rest of the Arabic region around Israel, such as Syria, Egypt, etc...the people there educated people whom are also logical, patient, religious but we have all kinds of people in our society. Hamas is actually more organized than Fatah and they know how to run the territory and would have done much more had they had an opportunity to. I'm a person that seeks a balance because it's the only thing that works with Muslim Arabs these days. A balance between national law mixed with Islamic law, just like Hamas does. They have raised an religious and educated population and that's partly because our struggle with Israel that transforms our people.

My family there consist of dentists, doctors, one surgeon, national employees, pharmacists ....I have many educated people in my family yet they're still barely making it due to the regional state. The rest of the Arab world is going through many problems but we can't just blame the people, it's due to years of repression from dictatorial regimes and from imperialism in the past century. So obviously right now there is chaos everywhere and the only good development is that people are actively trying to find a solution, we have people who are concerned.

I'm not sure about your personal views, but for me, I believe in God and so yes I believe Muhammad(SAW) had the right solutions to our problems. If we Muslims read about his way of life and his wisdom he have us we could solve many of our problems today. Going completely secular is not the answer in my opinion, in fact I believe we already passed that secular era in the levant region of the Middle East. Something new is brewing which will see much violence but that doesn't mean violence makes everything negative. It's unavoidable in some cases but these events change our people's minds and they learn from experiences. So I seek a balance and the issue right now is we have some people in the middle who are isolated by secular elements(By this I mean how they reflect upon their views on the region, life, foreign policy, not about conservative laws) in the Middle East. We also have extremists who don't have clear objectives or popular support but they seem to have hit an era where they have to reform themselves and eventually our priorities will change very quickly. That's what's significant about our region, you don't know what to expect but the situation overall is difficult to cope with and that's why we are very emotional when it comes to discussing our affairs but that's natural and to be expected since we all want to influence the changes occurring in our region.

Do you see what I mean here? We only exist but we are really dead.

 

[rmi5]

I've been there, part of it is the rulers and the other part is the West. Of course with rulers like we have in our Arab nations it produces a lot of ignorance amongst the population. Except in areas where there is plenty of oil, that doesn't mean gulf Arabs are much more educated, they just have way more opportunities and leaders who do a good job domestically but when it comes to political freedom and foreign policy I don't favor them much. And then we have Islamists, yes, some Islamists are insane people with no clear objectives. But, a good portion and the majority are well educated people with clear goals and objectives. I can tell you Gaza is not like the rest of the Arabic region around Israel, such as Syria, Egypt, etc...the people there educated people whom are also logical, patient, religious but we have all kinds of people in our society. Hamas is actually more organized than Fatah and they know how to run the territory and would have done much more had they had an opportunity to. I'm a person that seeks a balance because it's the only thing that works with Muslim Arabs these days. A balance between national law mixed with Islamic law, just like Hamas does. They have raised an religious and educated population and that's partly because our struggle with Israel that transforms our people.

My family there consist of dentists, doctors, one surgeon, national employees, pharmacists ....I have many educated people in my family yet they're still barely making it due to the regional state. The rest of the Arab world is going through many problems but we can't just blame the people, it's due to years of repression from dictatorial regimes and from imperialism in the past century. So obviously right now there is chaos everywhere and the only good development is that people are actively trying to find a solution, we have people who are concerned.

I'm not sure about your personal views, but for me, I believe in God and so yes I believe Muhammad(SAW) had the right solutions to our problems. If we Muslims read about his way of life and his wisdom he have us we could solve many of our problems today. Going completely secular is not the answer in my opinion, in fact I believe we already passed that secular era in the levant region of the Middle East. Something new is brewing which will see much violence but that doesn't mean violence makes everything negative. It's unavoidable in some cases but these events change our people's minds and they learn from experiences. So I seek a balance and the issue right now is we have some people in the middle who are isolated by secular elements(By this I mean how they reflect upon their views on the region, life, foreign policy, not about conservative laws) in the Middle East. We also have extremists who don't have clear objectives or popular support but they seem to have hit an era where they have to reform themselves and eventually our priorities will change very quickly. That's what's significant about our region, you don't know what to expect but the situation overall is difficult to cope with and that's why we are very emotional when it comes to discussing our affairs but that's natural and to be expected since we all want to influence the changes occurring in our region.

Do you see what I mean here? We only exist but we are really dead.

Yup, I know what you are talking about. I agree with some parts and disagree with some other parts. here is my disagreements:
Secularism is not equal to democracy. secularism is a prerequisite for a real democratic system, but it does not guarantee democracy. There is no more or else in secularism. Secularism means the separation of religion and government. It is like a binary logic, you either accept it or not. if you let "some" religious laws be added to your system, actually you are fooling yourself and your system would no longer be a secular one. BTW, Levant has not experienced the democracy era yet. when Hamas hangs people in the streets and tries to perform Sharia, it means that you would be screwed in near future. islamists always come with a smile and then turn into a monster.
Anyway, You wrote a very long response I will try to write rest of my response for you later.

 

[Falcon29]

Yup, I know what you are talking about. I agree with some parts and disagree with some other parts. here is my disagreements:
Secularism is not equal to democracy. secularism is a prerequisite for a real democratic system, but it does not guarantee democracy. There is no more or else in secularism. Secularism means the separation of religion and government. It is like a binary logic, you either accept it or not. if you let "some" religious laws be added to your system, actually you are fooling yourself and your system would no longer be a secular one. BTW, Levant has not experienced the democracy era yet. when Hamas hangs people in the streets and tries to perform Sharia, it means that you would be screwed in near future. islamists always come with a smile and then turn into a monster.
Anyway, You wrote a very long response I will try to write rest of my response for you later.

Well I'm not sure about Iranian people, but secularism will never ever work with Arabic people. The Arabic people need to work on many aspects on theirselves. Putting a system in place won't give us solutions. And no, we Muslims are Muslim and don't separate religion from society or state. Hamas only hangs convicted criminals and there's nothing wrong with that. They aren't no monsters and have very popular support amongst the Palestinian people. I believe you're confusing other Islamists with Hamas, Hamas has actually succeeded in many places where other Arab governments and Islamists have not. Hamas doesn't have sharia law either, it's a mix between national law and Islamic law. I'm not sure where you get your information from.

 

[xenon54 out]

It is like a binary logic, you either accept it or not. if you let "some" religious laws be added to your system, actually you are fooling yourself and your system would no longer be a secular one.

Actually there is nothing wrong with a secular goverment regulating the religious issues, for exsample there is a Ministry of religious affairs in Turkey which is schooling the imams and organizes the 70'000 mosques in Turkey, only licensed imams can practice.

This system helped us to prevent nutjobs from giving speeches on mosques, these licensed imams must follow the countrys laws, they will be arrested if they do something illegal like marriage of underaged.
As you can see, ignoring the religion completely is also not the answer, espacially in ME.

 

[Hakan]

North Korea is a 100% secular government. So was the USSR. They functioned pretty well if you ask me. They weren't crazy or extreme. I mean they only killed millions in death camps and deprived people of basic rights. They didn't have any corruption.

 

[rmi5]

Well I'm not sure about Iranian people, but secularism will never ever work with Arabic people. The Arabic people need to work on many aspects on theirselves. Putting a system in place won't give us solutions. And no, we Muslims are Muslim and don't separate religion from society or state. Hamas only hangs convicted criminals and there's nothing wrong with that. They aren't no monsters and have very popular support amongst the Palestinian people. I believe you're confusing other Islamists with Hamas, Hamas has actually succeeded in many places where other Arab governments and Islamists have not. Hamas doesn't have sharia law either, it's a mix between national law and Islamic law. I'm not sure where you get your information from.

Why? Are muslims a different species? if not, what's the difference here. Actually, I believe that a secular system is much more needed in islamic countries than everywhere else. Because their religion keeps meddling in their politics and causes injustice, and brings some medieval laws in the post-modern era.
BTW, I am sure that I am talking about Hamas. do more search about them.

PS. Hopefully, one of the side effects of the mullah regime is that the iranian society is evolved very fast to seek for a secular system, since mullahs showed them the incapability of the religious system.

 

[rmi5]

Actually there is nothing wrong with a secular goverment regulating the religious issues, for exsample there is a Ministry of religious affairs in Turkey which is schooling the imams and organizes the 70'000 mosques in Turkey, only licensed imams can practice.

This system helped us to prevent nutjobs from giving speeches on mosques, these licensed imams must follow the countrys laws, they will be arrested if they do something illegal like marriage of underaged.
As you can see, ignoring the religion completely is also not the answer, espacially in ME.

your definition of secularism, is more close to laicite of the France. Actually, in the laicite system of Turkiye or France, religion cannot meddle into politics, but politics can meddle into religion. That's the difference. Anyway, people like @Abii and @Ahriman are more in favor of laicite, but I am more into the secularism, which USA is an example of it, and it bans the meddling of religion in politics or and vice versa. Actually, a system based on laicite can be justified for me, only in the limited-term in the highly religious societies, which it would act as a negative bias, to oppose the religious, and non-democratic forces in a society, but in long-term, the system should become a secular one.

North Korea is a 100% secular government. So was the USSR. They functioned pretty well if you ask me. They weren't crazy or extreme. I mean they only killed millions in death camps and deprived people of basic rights. They didn't have any corruption.

read post #78

 

[xenon54 out]

your definition of secularism, is more close to laicite of the France. Actually, in the laicite system of Turkiye or France, religion cannot meddle into politics, but politics can meddle into religion. That's the difference. Anyway, people like @Abii and @Ahriman are more in favor of laicite, but I am more into the secularism, which USA is an example of it, and it bans the meddling of religion in politics or and vice versa. Actually, a system based on laicite can be justified for me, only in the limited-term in the highly religious societies, which it would act as a negative bias, to oppose the religious, and non-democratic forces in a society, but in long-term, the system should become a secular one.

Turkey is probably more secular than USA, i mean they have slogans like ''God save America'' and ''In God we trust'', the Republican party has no difference to AKP for me, boot are using the religious feelings of people for their agenda.

 

[Hakan]

Turkey is probably more secular than USA, i mean they have slogans like ''God save America'' and ''In God we trust'', the Republican party has no difference to AKP for me, boot are using the religious feelings of people for their agenda.

In the u.s military the women are allowed to wear the head scarf. You can pray with no restrictions. The bosses at the work place will let you pray in their office. Even when i went to school competitions they had special rooms set asside with prayer mats so the muslim students could pray. This is real religious freedom. In america they have accepted the reality that religion Plays a role in people's Lives. The government plays no role in religion and religious institutions dont play a role in the government.

On the other hand we have France which is Very extreme. There secularism/liberalism has become a religion in its self that interferes with the states interests.

 

[xenon54 out]

On the other hand we have France which is Very extreme.

In France headscarfs in Schools was way earlier allowed than in Turkey, Turkey had too extreme laws till last year but they chaged it, now people with headscarf can recieve education.

But there is nothing wrong with banning it on jobs with Uniforms, i mean all the other things are also forbidden, you cant also wear hats in these jobs which is ok.

 

[Hakan]

In France headscarfs in Schools was way earlier allowed than in Turkey, Turkey had too extreme laws till last year but they chaged it, now people with headscarf can recieve education.

But there is nothing wrong with banning it on jobs with Uniforms, i mean all the other things are also forbidden, you cant also wear hats in these jobs which is ok.

The difference between wearing a normal hat and head scarf is that the head scarf is a religious obligation and that person believes that if they don't wear that head scarf they will be punished. The best thing to do is to simply respect everyone's beliefs and allow them to carry on their lives unmolested. By restricting people in the workplace you are restricting peoples futures. In the pentagon they even have employees that wear the head scarf.

Let me ask you an alternative question:There is nothing wrong with allowing it on jobs with Uniforms, i mean all the other things are also all alowed, you can also wear small clothes in these jobs which is ok.

 

[xenon54 out]

The difference between wearing a normal hat and head scarf is that the head scarf is a religious obligation and that person believes that if they don't wear that head scarf they will be punished. The best thing to do is to simply respect everyone's beliefs and allow them to carry on their lives unmolested. By restricting people in the workplace you are restricting peoples futures. In the pentagon they even have employees that wear the head scarf.

Let me ask you an alternative question:There is nothing wrong with allowing it on jobs with Uniforms, i mean all the other things are also all alowed, you can also wear small clothes in these jobs which is ok.

Military and police have very strict rules about this, you can only wear what they give to you, everything else is forbidden.

 

[Hakan]

Military and police have very strict rules about this, you can only wear what they give to you, everything else is forbidden.

Exactly in America its not like that. They have found the middle ground. They are able to make exceptions which benefit the unity of the country instead of making people feel like outcasts.

 

[xenon54 out]

Exactly in America its not like that. They have found the middle ground. They are able to make exceptions which benefit the unity of the country instead of making people feel like outcasts.

Seriously i dont think that headscarfs are allowed on jobs with Uniforms, if so then whats point of an Uniform?