Indonesia eyes Eurofighters to check China’s threat

[Figaro]

The problem ain't tech. The problem is that Chinese airforce still operate under antiquated Soviet style tactics.

“The Chinese pilots had poor situational awareness,” Alert 5 reported, citing the presentation. “Too much focus was on front of the aircraft rather than all around.” In phases of the war game where J-11s escorted other planes, there was a “lack of coordination.”

Chinese pilots “were not experienced in avoiding missile shots,” Alert 5 continued. “Their responses were too mechanical and [they] could not judge correctly the evasive techniques for missiles with different ranges.”

This is incorrect. The J-11A (i.e. Su-27SK) BVR capabilities are much weaker than that of the Gripen to begin off with. That is why the J-11A pilots underperformed vs the Gripen. Just to give you an idea, the J-11A outperformed the Gripen 25 to 1 in WVR combat (that means 25 Gripens were shot down for the loss of 1 J-11A). The Gripen's dominance came in BVR combat, where it slaughtered the J-11As in similar fashion. I do agree there is a certain deficiency in the pilot training for BVR combat ... but that is because these are J-11 pilots, who operate fighters with relatively poor BVR capabilities. These pilots were too used to WVR combat, which is where the J-11A excels in whereas for the Gripen it is opposite. It is hard for the pilots to gain extensive BVR training when their aircraft is not very capable of BVR combat, just like how the Gripen pilots were clearly not trained as well for WVR combat. The "poor situational awareness" and "little experience in avoiding missile shots" are all hallmarks of BVR combat. I'm sure the Gripen pilots about their weakness in WVR combat, just like the J-11A pilots learned about their weakness in BVR combat.

Here is an excellent write up analyzing the exercises : https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/fla...-happened-at-the-falcon-strike-2015-exercise/

 

[mejikuhibiu]

Most probably they can. They already have 2 ac carriers and other 2 are in progress, including the LHAs.

Maybe in 2025 we already have LHA / LHD.
If china attack Indonesia, there will be reaction from other nation.. and china think tank have know it what would happen if they try to attack Indonesia or other SEA nation in scs.. so there is no possibility for china attack Indonesia.

 

[Figaro]

Maybe in 2025 we already have LHA / LHD.
If china attack Indonesia, there will be reaction from other nation.. and china think tank have know it what would happen if they try to attack Indonesia or other SEA nation in scs.. so there is no possibility for china attack Indonesia.

Forget about China attacking Indonesia ... the original person who said this was being extremely careless and needlessly provocative with his assertion. Just because you have a strong military does not mean you should attack random countries at will.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

What's the objective here? Bombing us to submission. Fun fact you can't.

The base on SCS does not support fully invasion size squadrons. Only china airbase in Hainan or in the mainland can handle that. This will limit China's airforce range by a considerable margin.

Unlike china which have no clear objectives to winning a war. All Indonesia have to do is hold on & bled china to death.

This during peacetime scenario:
In the case of multiple SLOC closures, rerouting all shipping for one week through the Lombok Strait would cost approximately $119 million. A worst-case planning scenario entails all three straits (as well as other possible Southeast Asian SLOCs) being unavailable for commercial traffic, forcing vessels to sail around the southern coast of Australia before pushing north into the Philippine Sea. This would be analogous to traders rerouting around Africa when the Suez Canal was closed from 1967 to 1974, and would carry a considerable monthly cost of $2.8 billion.

https://chinapower.csis.org/much-trade-transits-south-china-sea/

 

[antonius123]

Maybe in 2025 we already have LHA / LHD.
If china attack Indonesia, there will be reaction from other nation.. and china think tank have know it what would happen if they try to attack Indonesia or other SEA nation in scs.. so there is no possibility for china attack Indonesia.

Trust me, it is not a match. They have enough destroyer to handle LHA/LHD, and other SEA nations will be no match either.

There is possibility, but like many fellows say here, it is slim, because China sees Indonesia as friend.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Trust me, it is not a match. They have enough destroyer to handle LHA/LHD, and other SEA nations will be no match either.

There is possibility, but like many fellows say here, it is slim, because China sees Indonesia as friend.

During hu jintao period china & Indonesia were friend but now under Xi china is a threat not just to Indonesia but to the world.

 

[antonius123]

During hu jintao period china & Indonesia were friend but now under Xi china is a threat not just to Indonesia but to the world.

For Indonesia, not in the short future, China needs friends and they see Indonesia as good friend and they dont have intention to claim Indonesian territory. Maybe in the distant future who knows.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

This is incorrect. The J-11A (i.e. Su-27SK) BVR capabilities are much weaker than that of the Gripen to begin off with. That is why the J-11A pilots underperformed vs the Gripen. Just to give you an idea, the J-11A outperformed the Gripen 25 to 1 in WVR combat (that means 25 Gripens were shot down for the loss of 1 J-11A). The Gripen's dominance came in BVR combat, where it slaughtered the J-11As in similar fashion. I do agree there is a certain deficiency in the pilot training for BVR combat ... but that is because these are J-11 pilots, who operate fighters with relatively poor BVR capabilities. These pilots were too used to WVR combat, which is where the J-11A excels in whereas for the Gripen it is opposite. It is hard for the pilots to gain extensive BVR training when their aircraft is not very capable of BVR combat, just like how the Gripen pilots were clearly not trained as well for WVR combat. The "poor situational awareness" and "little experience in avoiding missile shots" are all hallmarks of BVR combat. I'm sure the Gripen pilots about their weakness in WVR combat, just like the J-11A pilots learned about their weakness in BVR combat.

Here is an excellent write up analyzing the exercises : https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/fla...-happened-at-the-falcon-strike-2015-exercise/

remember with cooperative targetting through datalinks, J-11A can take radar data feed from AWACs and J-16 and just be missile trucks. Meanwhile many SEA air forces are hodge podges of mixed western and Russian gear with no AWACs and half their planes can't talk to the other half.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

For Indonesia, not in the short future, China needs friends and they see Indonesia as good friend and they dont have intention to claim Indonesian territory. Maybe in the distant future who knows.

China's actions guarantee they will have no friends in the short or distant future.

Not even Pakistan will join a future Chinese war if they are surrounded by all sides.

 

[Nike]

Indonesia is no pushover though

China's actions guarantee they will have no friends in the short or distant future.

Not even Pakistan will join a future Chinese war if they are surrounded by all sides.

US alone is a massive headache for China, and their Ally like Australia, Japan, UK, Canada and other can be called upon to giving number boost.

 

[Feng Leng]

What's the objective here? Bombing us to submission. Fun fact you can't.

The base on SCS does not support fully invasion size squadrons. Only china airbase in Hainan or in the mainland can handle that. This will limit China's airforce range by a considerable margin.

Unlike china which have no clear objectives to winning a war. All Indonesia have to do is hold on & bled china to death.

This during peacetime scenario:
In the case of multiple SLOC closures, rerouting all shipping for one week through the Lombok Strait would cost approximately $119 million. A worst-case planning scenario entails all three straits (as well as other possible Southeast Asian SLOCs) being unavailable for commercial traffic, forcing vessels to sail around the southern coast of Australia before pushing north into the Philippine Sea. This would be analogous to traders rerouting around Africa when the Suez Canal was closed from 1967 to 1974, and would carry a considerable monthly cost of $2.8 billion.

https://chinapower.csis.org/much-trade-transits-south-china-sea/
View attachment 657029

LOL our cruise missiles are 1500 km range -- plenty far enough for Jakarta. You can run but you can't hide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CJ-10_(missile)#Variants

 

[Feng Leng]

China's actions guarantee they will have no friends in the short or distant future.

Not even Pakistan will join a future Chinese war if they are surrounded by all sides.

Once we reduce our enemies to a piles of rubble, primitive cave people won't be surrounding anybody.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Indonesia is no pushover though



US alone is a massive headache for China, and their Ally like Australia, Japan, UK, Canada and other can be called upon to giving number boost.

The Chinese here think we will just keel over letting the PLA walk over us.

Fact of the matter is that if you want to win against Indonesia they need to commit to long & sustained a land war against us. Current china not even strong enough to take Taiwan let alone the Indonesian archipelagos.

 

[nufix]

China's actions guarantee they will have no friends in the short or distant future.

Not even Pakistan will join a future Chinese war if they are surrounded by all sides.

Yep, even the US cannot antagonize the whole world. Since WW1, the US never went into conflict alone, and always under the umbrella of supranational entities like NATO or UN.

If China keeps on antagonizing everyone like their PDF members do everyday, it wont do any good for China. This attitude is however normal for new riches/new power as it needs to prove its hegemony in its own home region before going global.

 

[nufix]

LOL our cruise missiles are 1500 km range -- plenty far enough for Jakarta. You can run but you can't hide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CJ-10_(missile)#Variants

Yeah, with all this posturing, would be really funny if that doesnt happen. But hey, everyone can dream right?