Indonesia eyes Eurofighters to check China’s threat

[IblinI]

Indonesia would have only 100 combat aircraft

Last time I checked, they have some 30 F16,10-20 flankers.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

This is what I have been saying! China and Indonesia disagrees on EEZ, should be resolved to the satisfaction of both countries rather peacefully.

Because there is a conflict over the EEZ and Chinese fishing boats apparently could not wait until the issue is resolved. Moreover, Chinese white and grey hulls are also spotted in the area. So yeah, never underestimate the stupidity of human being.

True. This is just an interesting hypothetical. It also serves as a reminder that China is much closer to Indonesia now than it was in the past, such as during the fascist military dictatorship era. It is for the good of both sides that positive relations continue.

Last time I checked, they have some 30 F16,10-20 flankers.

They might throw in their trainers like Hawk and T-50s as patrol and light attack assets, though efficacy is dubious.

 

[Indos]

They might throw in their trainers like Hawk and T-50s as patrol and light attack assets, though efficacy is dubious.

Yup our Hawk and T50 can use sidewinder, but not enough to deal with Chinese fighter jet with BVR capability.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Yup our Hawk and T50 can use sidewinder, but not enough to deal with Chinese fighter jet with BVR capability.

hypothetically, they'd do well in a WVR situation, but the problem with the Indonesian Air Force is that it is basically a regional airforce mostly suitable for point defense of particular parts of the Indonesian homeland. The lack of tanker, AWAC and other support assets, and the low numbers, support this. This is not any fault of Indonesia, it is what the Indonesian economy and technology can support right now.

The greatest weapon Indonesia has is diplomacy. By being friendly to everyone - US, China, ASEAN - and refraining from extremist politics, it can avoid conflict in which it is at a disadvantage.

while PLAAF has significant limitations on global power projection, it is still capable of area air defense of all of China, which necessarily forces it to have the capability to project power regionally - thus the tankers, AWACs and transports.

 

[Figaro]

hypothetically, they'd do well in a WVR situation, but the problem with the Indonesian Air Force is that it is basically a regional airforce mostly suitable for point defense of particular parts of the Indonesian homeland. The lack of tanker, AWAC and other support assets, and the low numbers, support this. This is not any fault of Indonesia, it is what the Indonesian economy and technology can support right now.

The greatest weapon Indonesia has is diplomacy. By being friendly to everyone - US, China, ASEAN - and refraining from extremist politics, it can avoid conflict in which it is at a disadvantage.

while PLAAF has significant limitations on global power projection, it is still capable of area air defense of all of China, which necessarily forces it to have the capability to project power regionally - thus the tankers, AWACs and transports.

Main issue with PLAAF is the lack of tankers IMO ... they have pretty sufficient AWAC numbers and a lot of Y-20s are being produced, which should mitigate the transport problem. The biggest limitation on the tanker fleet is the rather limited capacity of the H-6U. But with the Y-20U tanker, it looks like this problem is getting fixed too. Now, the big missing puzzle piece for the PLAAF is the H-20 bomber. IMO, this is the most lacking field currently ... the H-6K's range, payload, and general lack of survivability against formidable SAM defenses. The PLAAF really needs the H-20 if it wants its bombers to play a meaningful role in future conflicts.

 

[nufix]

True. This is just an interesting hypothetical. It also serves as a reminder that China is much closer to Indonesia now than it was in the past, such as during the fascist military dictatorship era. It is for the good of both sides that positive relations continue.



They might throw in their trainers like Hawk and T-50s as patrol and light attack assets, though efficacy is dubious.

Yep, China has become an important market for Indonesian export goods as well as an alternative source of import goods. Conflicts between countries are part of daily life, what matters is how it is being resolved. Wonder why anyone want to have war over such issue.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

A good reading about chinese airforce:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-chinese-air-force-lost-war-game-fighter-jet-104247

Best thing about Indonesia is that we can predict with near certainty where china are going to attack & it's going to be in the natuna islands.

We just have to focus most of our forces there, build layered air defense & wait it out as we bled china to death by intercepting China's shipping fleet.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Main issue with PLAAF is the lack of tankers IMO ... they have pretty sufficient AWAC numbers and a lot of Y-20s are being produced, which should mitigate the transport problem. The biggest limitation on the tanker fleet is the rather limited capacity of the H-6U. But with the Y-20U tanker, it looks like this problem is getting fixed too. Now, the big missing puzzle piece for the PLAAF is the H-20 bomber. IMO, this is the most lacking field currently ... the H-6K's range, payload, and general lack of survivability against formidable SAM defenses. The PLAAF really needs the H-20 if it wants its bombers to play a meaningful role in future conflicts.

H-6K is a missile truck, the bomb bay was removed and replaced by additional fuel and electronic warfare components.

I believe that PLAAF or PLAN should've bought some Tu-22M from Russia back in 1992 when they were selling it, or licensed it in 2013. Tu-22M was the crown jewel of Soviet Naval Aviation and would've been an amazing leap up from H-6K, enough to serve PLAN's objectives until 2030+ since it's just a much better platform than H-6K, suitable for AWAC, maritime patrol, tanker, etc. Alas the timidity of the Jiang administration and then the Hu administration led to the loss of this opportunity.

Tu-22M can carry 10 missiles (6 in rotary launchers, 4 on hardpoints) while H-6K can only carry 6. Tu-22M has higher range in all situations, and is fast enough to keep pace with fighters to boot.

 

[IblinI]

A good reading about chinese airforce:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-chinese-air-force-lost-war-game-fighter-jet-104247

Best thing about Indonesia is that we can predict with near certainty where china are going to attack & it's going to be in the natuna islands.

We just have to focus most of our forces there, build layered air defense & wait it out as we bled china to death by intercepting China's shipping fleet.

J11A (90s tech level)with primitive radar lost in the BVR scenario but won in a WVR scenario, we send J10A in the second year, J10C+KJ500 later, the result is needless to say.

 

[Feng Leng]

Best thing about Indonesia is that we can predict with near certainty where china are going to attack & it's going to be in the natuna islands.

Jakarta is a much more obvious target.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Jakarta is a much more obvious target.

You still need to pass through natuna. Learn geography why don't you.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

J11A (90s tech level)with primitive radar lost in the BVR scenario but won in a WVR scenario, we send J10A in the second year, J10C+KJ500 later, the result is needless to say.

The problem ain't tech. The problem is that Chinese airforce still operate under antiquated Soviet style tactics.

“The Chinese pilots had poor situational awareness,” Alert 5 reported, citing the presentation. “Too much focus was on front of the aircraft rather than all around.” In phases of the war game where J-11s escorted other planes, there was a “lack of coordination.”

Chinese pilots “were not experienced in avoiding missile shots,” Alert 5 continued. “Their responses were too mechanical and [they] could not judge correctly the evasive techniques for missiles with different ranges.”

 

[IblinI]

The problem ain't tech. The problem is that Chinese airforce still operate under antiquated Soviet style tactics.

“The Chinese pilots had poor situational awareness,” Alert 5 reported, citing the presentation. “Too much focus was on front of the aircraft rather than all around.” In phases of the war game where J-11s escorted other planes, there was a “lack of coordination.”

Chinese pilots “were not experienced in avoiding missile shots,” Alert 5 continued. “Their responses were too mechanical and [they] could not judge correctly the evasive techniques for missiles with different ranges.”

we send J10A in the second year, J10C+KJ500 later, the result is needless to say.

The world's second largest airforce war game has been held since 2010, these problems have been discussed and addressed and maybe one day we will have the pleasure to be invited to Indonesia for similar war game.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

You still need to pass through natuna. Learn geography why don't you.

Indonesia does not have the ability to concentrate forces at Natuna due to lack of tankers. It'll have to ferry its planes from all corners of Indonesia to Natuna through repeated landing and refueling.

even if it tried, Natuna only has a single 2500 m runway airport, easy target for missile strikes which eat Indonesia's limited SAM reserves if they can even intercept them; if they can't, they lose the SAMs then they lose the runway. Indonesia will find it difficult to get its forces to the fight and keep them operational.

even if it succeeded in concentrating its forces, one decisive battle would mean Indonesia loses everything, and the entire Indonesian air force and navy can't stop even just the PLAN and PLAAF assets that can be based in Subi Reef. Indonesian F-16 can't datalink with Indonesian Su-30 and has no AWACs, meaning that there is no possibility of OTH targetting or coordinated BVR engagement. Meanwhile all PLAAF and PLAN aircraft share the same datalink.

in summary: Indonesia can't get all its planes to the fight. Even if it could, they might not be able to operate. Even if they could all operate, one decisive battle that the Indonesian military is disadvantaged in could mean they lose everything.

 

[Feng Leng]

You still need to pass through natuna. Learn geography why don't you.

Our bombers will just fly over South China Sea to within 1500 km from Jakarta and launch their cruise missiles. A few dozen sorties and a few hundred cruise missiles later, Jakarta is a smoking ruin.