Indian CBG to have 7 Escorts

[RISING SUN]

The Indian Navy's CBG usually consists of two destroyers (usually of the Delhi Class, previously Kashins were used) and two or more frigates, (usually a combination of Brahmaputra, Talwar or Shivalik class) and one support ship.Diesel subs can't be part of CBG They lack speed & consistency. Corvettes are not presented in CBG. Destroyer should be multi role. Frigate should be ASW specialist. In future Akula will form apart of CBG.

 

[Abingdonboy]

IMHO I think a future IN CBG will look like:

1-2 Destroyer (P-15A)

2-3 Frigates (1 Talwar and 1-2 P-17/P-17A)

1-2 Corvettes (P-28)

1 SSK/SSN (P-75/Chakra)

1 Fleet replenishment ship (Deepak Class)

note the article said at least 7 other ships so the figures are fluid and the CBG will change depending on mission, region, threat level etc



Even still this is some force and will easily dominate the IOR and beyond. At the time the IN is fielding such a CBG there are literally only a handful of nations able to match/counter this formidable force!

 

[Jinx1]

IMHO I think a future IN CBG will look like:

1-2 Destroyer (P-15A)

2-3 Frigates (1 Talwar and 1-2 P-17/P-17A)

1-2 Corvettes (P-28)

1 SSK/SSN (P-75/Chakra)

1 Fleet replenishment ship (Deepak Class)

note the article said at least 7 other ships so the figures are fluid and the CBG will change depending on mission, region, threat level etc



Even still this is some force and will easily dominate the IOR and beyond. At the time the IN is fielding such a CBG there are literally only a handful of nations able to match/counter this formidable force!

Wow. Pray, tell me how will Indian CBG dominate the IOR and beyond when a US CBG consists of 25 ships and subs and they are operating in IOR and Beyond. They now probably have four aircraft carriers in and around the Gulf. 5th Fleet is stationed at Bahrain and I am sure the remaining three carriers would not have arrived all by themselves.

 

[Koovie]

Wow. Pray, tell me how will Indian CBG dominate the IOR and beyond when a US CBG consists of 25 ships and subs and they are operating in IOR and Beyond. They now probably have four aircraft carriers in and around the Gulf. 5th Fleet is stationed at Bahrain and I am sure the remaining three carriers would not have arrived all by themselves.

Agreed, no one in the world can challange the USN on the seas.

FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jinx1]

Agreed, no one in the world can challange the USN on the seas.

FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sir, thank you for confirmation.

Though it also raises another question. American navy's vision statement issued in 2007 clearly indicated that their primary areas of operation are Pacific and Indian Oceans. This means, that they are going to stay in IOR for a very long time. It also means that Indian navy's freedom of action in the IOR is drastically curtailed unless its operations are in consonance with those of the USN. It also means that this powerful IN may only operate in IOR as a mere second fiddle. I said second fiddle because calling fourth or fifth fiddle is not the norm.

Which means, the true potential of IN in IOR will not be realized till more powerful navies continue to operate there. So, why does India need a three carrier group navy if they can not use it to its true potential. Won't it remain as a "force in being" and nothing more.

In time Chinese would also have built an appropriate naval response force and if I may say, so would Pakistan for its sea-ward defence.

 

[janon]

Sir, thank you for confirmation.

Though it also raises another question. American navy's vision statement issued in 2007 clearly indicated that their primary areas of operation are Pacific and Indian Oceans. This means, that they are going to stay in IOR for a very long time. It also means that Indian navy's freedom of action in the IOR is drastically curtailed unless its operations are in consonance with those of the USN. It also means that this powerful IN may only operate in IOR as a mere second fiddle. I said second fiddle because calling fourth or fifth fiddle is not the norm.

Which means, the true potential of IN in IOR will not be realized till more powerful navies continue to operate there. So, why does India need a three carrier group navy if they can not use it to its true potential. Won't it remain as a "force in being" and nothing more.

In time Chinese would also have built an appropriate naval response force and if I may say, so would Pakistan for its sea-ward defence.

India's ambitions are not to take on the US in the IOR. Its ambition is only to dominate over any potential adversary, and we don't expect to become adversarial with the US. The CBGs will help us fight a naval war with ANY other power and win, in the Indian ocean region. It would also provide a modest expeditionary capability, but thats a different matter.

So to put it short, these CBGs will ensure India's naval superiority over PN or PLAN in the IOR. The point is not to be the most powerful, but to be more powerful than potential enemies. So just because the USN is more powerful doesn't mean we shouldn't have a navy at all. It's not all or nothing - it's not like we should be number one, or nothing.

I don't see any activities of the IN that it needs to perform that are going to be hampered by the USN's presence. IN needs those CBGs to fight India's wars - whether or not the USN has a presence there.

 

[Jinx1]

India's ambitions are not to take on the US in the IOR. Its ambition is only to dominate over any potential adversary, and we don't expect to become adversarial with the US. The CBGs will help us fight a naval war with ANY other power and win, in the Indian ocean region. It would also provide a modest expeditionary capability, but thats a different matter.

So to put it short, these CBGs will ensure India's naval superiority over PN or PLAN in the IOR. The point is not to be the most powerful, but to be more powerful than potential enemies. So just because the USN is more powerful doesn't mean we shouldn't have a navy at all. It's not all or nothing - it's not like we should be number one, or nothing.

I don't see any activities of the IN that it needs to perform that are going to be hampered by the USN's presence. IN needs those CBGs to fight India's wars - whether or not the USN has a presence there.

I agree with you 100%. On request of USN and other navies, IN is conducting anti-piracy operations in IOR.

An aircraft carrier group is considered a power projection tool. Three of these provide you with more than a modest expeditionary capability. This is irrespective of the amphibious brigade - which can be used against Sri Lanka, Maldieves etc etc. However, provision of naval superiority over PLAN or PN with these platforms may be a bit far-fetched. Both these countries are nuclear powers and if these platforms are used to exercise a blockade against China or Pakistan, hmmmm ..... I will probably think again.

In any case, the naval analysts are saying that the future operational use of such aircraft carriers remains mere symbolic indeed as their use against a potent adversary is probably over - particularly after potent anti-ship ballistic missiles have been tested and some may be operational.

 

[Tumba]

I agree with you 100%. On request of USN and other navies, IN is conducting anti-piracy operations in IOR.

An aircraft carrier group is considered a power projection tool. Three of these provide you with more than a modest expeditionary capability. This is irrespective of the amphibious brigade - which can be used against Sri Lanka, Maldieves etc etc. However, provision of naval superiority over PLAN or PN with these platforms may be a bit far-fetched. Both these countries are nuclear powers and if these platforms are used to exercise a blockade against China or Pakistan, hmmmm ..... I will probably think again.

In any case, the naval analysts are saying that the future operational use of such aircraft carriers remains mere symbolic indeed as their use against a potent adversary is probably over - particularly after potent anti-ship ballistic missiles have been tested and some may be operational.

PLAN ... no matter how powerful becomes ... but its superiority ends at Malacca Strait ... Andaman Nicobar gives India unfair advantage against any adversary ferrying from East Asia ... PLAN will be annihilated if it ever tries to enter Indian Ocean in anger before its reaches Andaman ...
on the other hand PN cant be compared to India's coast guards ... so I dont want to bother replying on that ...

and on the question of USN presence... you should remember India and USA interests are interlinked ... till the time we face same adversaries ... USN presence are more than welcome in Indian Ocean

 

[UKBengali]

PLAN ... no matter how powerful becomes ... but its superiority ends at Malacca Strait ... Andaman Nicobar gives India unfair advantage against any adversary ferrying from East Asia ... PLAN will be annihilated if it ever tries to enter Indian Ocean in anger before its reaches Andaman ...
on the other hand PN cant be compared to India's coast guards ... so I dont want to bother replying on that ...

and on the question of USN presence... you should remember India and USA interests are interlinked ... till the time we face same adversaries ... USN presence are more than welcome in Indian Ocean

Do you think a force of 2 supercarriers, 150+ combat aircraft, 6-8 destroyers and 2-3 modern SSNs can be "annihilated" by the Indians?

When the PLAN enters the Indian Ocean in the next decade it will be with overwhelming force.

 

[Yeti]

Chinese have no experience in using aircraft carriers like India has we have already operated one for many years now.

 

[Jinx1]

PLAN ... no matter how powerful becomes ... but its superiority ends at Malacca Strait ... Andaman Nicobar gives India unfair advantage against any adversary ferrying from East Asia ... PLAN will be annihilated if it ever tries to enter Indian Ocean in anger before its reaches Andaman ...
on the other hand PN cant be compared to India's coast guards ... so I dont want to bother replying on that ...

and on the question of USN presence... you should remember India and USA interests are interlinked ... till the time we face same adversaries ... USN presence are more than welcome in Indian Ocean

Well Sir, what if PLAN bypasses Malacca Straits. Lambok, Sunda in Indonesia are some examples. However, try and block Malacca from Andaman, the whole world would come hurtling towards India and IN at mach-6. These are world commons - and just making such a threat would have consequences for India.

Offensive use of IN in IOR Commons is dependent on US good will. Saying USN presence is more than welcome in IOR, takes your regional and global ambitions many many moons away.

Taking on navies of nuclear armed countries - you are joking.

irrespective of all this - I read someone suggest in another thread, IN is all dressed up and nowhere to go.

Chinese have no experience in using aircraft carriers like India has we have already operated one for many years now.

Agreed sir. However, they have been training since last almost ten years.

 

[janon]

Do you think a force of 2 supercarriers, 150+ combat aircraft, 6-8 destroyers and 2-3 modern SSNs can be "annihilated" by the Indians?

When the PLAN enters the Indian Ocean in the next decade it will be with overwhelming force.

Take a map of the IOR and find out where the PLAN can enter the Indian ocean from. Geograpy is to our advantage. No matter how many supercarriers they have, they will all have to pass through the chokepoint near Andaman - which can base more fighters than any number of super or hyper carriers. A few subs and a handful of MKIs and P8-Is at andaman can ensure that the PLAN can't enter the IOR.

Also, any CBG has range limitations, unless it is nuclear powered. See what distance a carrier will have to travel from China to reach the IOR. Other than the USN, no other navy can operate that far away from home in hostile waters.

Well Sir, what if PLAN bypasses Malacca Straits. Lambok, Sunda in Indonesia are some examples. However, try and block Malacca from Andaman, the whole world would come hurtling towards India and IN at mach-6. These are world commons - and just making such a threat would have consequences for India.

Offensive use of IN in IOR Commons is dependent on US good will. Saying USN presence is more than welcome in IOR, takes your regional and global ambitions many many moons away.

Taking on navies of nuclear armed countries - you are joking.

India will only block PLAN ships or subs by choking malacca, the rest of the worlds' shipping can go unhindered.

The nuclear argument is a different one. CBGs in the INdian context are purely for naval supremacy over its adversaries. Just because they have nukes doesnt mean we dont maintain a navy. You could threaten nukes for any military action, but we would still need a military. Why are we buying fighters and tanks and rifles, when the same argument can be made? The assumption is that India should be prepared to fight a war at any level - sub conventional or conventional or nuclear. So the answer to your nukes is our own nukes. CBGs are for naval supremacy.

 

[Yeti]

I agree with you 100%. On request of USN and other navies, IN is conducting anti-piracy operations in IOR.

An aircraft carrier group is considered a power projection tool. Three of these provide you with more than a modest expeditionary capability. This is irrespective of the amphibious brigade - which can be used against Sri Lanka, Maldieves etc etc. However, provision of naval superiority over PLAN or PN with these platforms may be a bit far-fetched. Both these countries are nuclear powers and if these platforms are used to exercise a blockade against China or Pakistan, hmmmm ..... I will probably think again.

In any case, the naval analysts are saying that the future operational use of such aircraft carriers remains mere symbolic indeed as their use against a potent adversary is probably over - particularly after potent anti-ship ballistic missiles have been tested and some may be operational.

This all depends if one can get a chance to hit the carrier in the first place, the anti-ship missile u speak of which China has is much over hyped all the carrier needs to do is track the missile using satellite and move out the way of the incoming threat.

 

[Tumba]

Do you think a force of 2 supercarriers, 150+ combat aircraft, 6-8 destroyers and 2-3 modern SSNs can be "annihilated" by the Indians?

When the PLAN enters the Indian Ocean in the next decade it will be with overwhelming force.

no matter how many super-carriers or hyper-carriers your big daddy brings near Adaman ... they are dead meat ... onslaught of Pak-Fas, MKIs, Rafale armed with brahmos/hyper sonic brahmos .. will brings your any sea ferrying country to its knees ... Shauryas based on Andamans will make short work of Plan ...

 

[Jinx1]

Take a map of the IOR and find out where the PLAN can enter the Indian ocean from. Geograpy is to our advantage. No matter how many supercarriers they have, they will all have to pass through the chokepoint near Andaman - which can base more fighters than any number of super or hyper carriers. A few subs and a handful of MKIs at andaman can ensure that the PLAN can't enter the IOR.

Also, any CBG has range limitations, unless it is nuclear powered. See what distance a carrier will have to travel from China to reach the IOR. Other than the USN, no other navy can operate that far away from home in hostile waters.

Lambok, Sunda in Indonesia or go around Indonesia. They can enter IOR unless USN challenge them. And why would USN challenge them if they are going against India - unless we are talking world war. Regarding blocking Andamans, please read my post above.

Secondly, PLAN carriers when built offcourse, can use Hambantota and Gawadar. They may in any case, move into IOR before declaration of any war between India and China.