IAF plane in pakistan photo shown to COAS USA

[blain2]

Lastly all Su's of the IAF were grounded for 4 weeks and the first flight was carried out yesterday after russian experts examined them. I doubt any sane person would send a grounded jet for a sortie over the border with weapons.

Regards

The news reports are from back in Dec 2008. Nothing was grounded at that time when these intrusions took place.

 

[Always Neutral]

The news reports are from back in Dec 2008. Nothing was grounded at that time when these intrusions took place.

I doubt any Su was in Kashmir at that time and even then I doubt they would use a Su. Anyway the burden of proof is on the PAF fan boys not me.

To me its seems just some mis-information to keep morale up.

Regards

 

[blain2]

I doubt any Su was in Kashmir at that time and even then I doubt they would use a Su. Anyway the burden of proof is on the PAF fan boys not me.

To me its seems just some mis-information to keep morale up.

Regards

Believe what you will (not that it matters any which way).

You need to do some more reading on this issue. Read up older threads as there are some fairly well informed posts on the earlier threads about why and where. The where part is important because the Su was reported over the Punjab boundary and not in Kashmir as you are suggesting here aside from mixing up your dates about when it happened and when the IAF's entire fleet of MKIs was grounded. The ingresses took place in two places.

 

[Always Neutral]

Believe what you will (not that it matters any which way).

You need to do some more reading on this issue. Read up older threads as there are some fairly well informed posts on the earlier threads about why and where. The where part is important because the Su was reported over the Punjab boundary and not in Kashmir as you are suggesting here aside from mixing up your dates about when it happened and when the IAF's entire fleet of MKIs was grounded. The ingresses took place in two places.

Blain I thought atleast you were someone who reads all posts before nit picking.

As regards the dates, I have posted to Zob and others that the article is in Urdu a language alien to me. The only comment I got is from the two line translation of Neo which said that a IAF Su was intercepted and escorted by Mig 29's a fact all fanboys are dis regarding while claiming the rest of the article as accurate.

Good for you all.

Regards

 

[blain2]

Fair enough. It was confusing..I thought this issue had already been discussed. Also I did not read all of the posts, just the last few...maybe I misunderstood. I think everyone is nitpicking here.

By the way, the article was on BBC urdu site. The context was as such that there were two incursions. One involved Mirage 2000s backed up/escorted as top cover by IAF Mig-29s. This one was on the Kashmir side. Second one entailed a MKI sorties which was intercepted and photographed over Punjab. The report did not disclose anything about the PAF fighter types and just mentioned that the PAF "aircraft" intercepted both and escorted them out.

 

[Hellfire]

Yes, but the facts are proved.
Details and photos were shown to US COAS.
Second they had a chance to destroy Su-30, but they didnt coz
1) If they would destroy it, it will surely crash in civilian area (probabily in Lahore) and SU-30 was completly loaded with weapons.
(Crashed plane takes 30 to 40 KM to get on ground coz of its speed)
2) It moved back on very first warning.
3) The ordered were just to push SU-30 back.

SU-30 was locked by F-16, thats a confirmed news.

A few facts

The BARS PESA on Su-30 has scanning in 300+ km in forward with tracking for multiple targets in 200 km range forwards and 60 km rear. In short, the AC will locate anything flying in Pakistani Air Space even before it can take off in case the Sukhoi was in Pak Airspace. So "lock on" is a joke!!!

In addition, no one sends their ACs armed. Mig-25s operated by India from Bareilly would regularly fly into Pak Airspace over Islamabad and Lahore and break the sound barrier there to see the response time without any successful interception of the same till date.

It was actually fun to see the young ones in the Bareilly based squadron fly into Pak airspace as a bet and take the silliest of photographs, a policy which was followed on Tibetian front too. So if India does indeed want to test your response, it will go all the way into the airspace, not merely "violate".

 

[Hellfire]

^^^In this particular case the suggestion seems to be that the engagement was WVR, since images were allegedly taken and shown.

you are right AM. Its just what you said - a suggestion.

A Su-30 today being employed in forward locales if at all, is employed in a mini-AWAC role in conjunction with the A-50s on a continuous surveillance.

As such, any AC taking off in your airspace is automatically targetted and observed. If at all any intrusion takes place, then be rest assured, your AC will not have WVR engagement. As such, the whole incident stinks.

 

[Hellfire]

Yes, and one English article after Pakistan carried out the Bubur cruise missile test stated that it was a train hugging missile. That doesn't mean we have to lay railway tracks to Delhi or Bombay to operate it now does it, nor that Pakistan did not carry out the test.

The South Asian media is notorious for getting details wrong - the aircraft description would likely fall into that category - it doesn't negate the fact that an Indian intrusion occurred and the PAF fighter got a lock on the IAF fighter.

Even the IAf admitted that there may have been a 'technical violation' - if they are willing to admit that much then I'd say the chances of the alleged Pakistani claim being valid are pretty high.

The incident, if am not wrong, was the uproar over an IAF AC flying within 10 km of own territory, something forbidden as per a mutually agreed treaty. That is why the "technical violation"

It may have been done deliberately to see the deployment pattern of PA AD units as also RADAR locales as the same was in time of heightened levels of tensions and IAF was on standby for further orders.

 

[Hellfire]

AM,

You always put your best foot forth. If IAF want to snoop or test Pakistani Air Defence readiness, they will either use the Mirage 2000 or the MKI because both have decent ECM & ELINT collection capabilities which most of their other platforms lack.

BBC Urdu should not be considered to be suspect (as in providing a Pakistani POV which it does not). Its written for by people who are on BBC's payroll and they write very probing stories about Pakistan.

Blain 2

No you are quite wrong here.

Ideal choice is/would be Mig-21 "Bison"/SEPECAT Jaguar which have more than decent ECMs and ELINT capacities with a couple of ACs dedicated in the latter role . Jaguar is the AC of choice due to its role being deep strike.

The Su-30 will be employed in AWACS role during any such plan as the more powerful RADAR will be used to plot/detect the threat.

 

[Hellfire]

Fair enough. It was confusing..I thought this issue had already been discussed. Also I did not read all of the posts, just the last few...maybe I misunderstood. I think everyone is nitpicking here.

By the way, the article was on BBC urdu site. The context was as such that there were two incursions. One involved Mirage 2000s backed up/escorted as top cover by IAF Mig-29s. This one was on the Kashmir side. Second one entailed a MKI sorties which was intercepted and photographed over Punjab. The report did not disclose anything about the PAF fighter types and just mentioned that the PAF "aircraft" intercepted both and escorted them out.

But if I am correct, the photograph which was allegedly taken had an AC without any weapon load and seemed like a PR photo retaken and doctored!

 

[MZUBAIR]

Confirmed by whom ? Till than its just propoganda. Is the US COAS the boss of PAF now ? Why not show it to the rest of the world. No one is foolish to cross a border with a full load of weapons delibrately unless they mean to use them.

I guess this incident is just some media hype to divert attention and boost the stocks of some well paid journalists who can now do a talk show.

Regards

Confirmed by many ........

References
The Indian news

Geo TV

BBC Soth Asia

Furthur search from google.

The claim was from PAF and PAF is very responsible organisation. U wouldnt join the forum if you any doubt abt PAF, PN, PA, Pakistan security forces etc.

How many proves u need? Every one knows abt it. Dont be like a child.

U said "Is the US COAS the boss of PAF now ?"
It seems that u are frustrated. Pakistan COAS has very strong relation with US COAS.

Plz change ur location and country, ur pyche clearly shows that ur a typical Indian!!!!

U said "Why not show it to the rest of the world ........"

Well, let me tell u there was an element of doubt that it might be mistake or India will utter that they didnt violated and claim it as a technical mistake coz SU-30 was only able to enter only 7.4KM when its been chased by F-16 and warned. (It was the only order to warn the jet and throw it out). F-16 locked it and didnt spare till SU-30 moved bck to Indian borders.

Still Indian Administration/IAF dont want to accept this coz they did wrong, they broke the agreement and they know that, thats y they refused to accept it.

Besides that there is an agreement b/w Indian and Pakistan that they will keep their jets and missel tests about 10KM away from the border line. PAF and IAF jet fighters usually bymistake come up very close to Indian and Pakistan border but they never violated the air space.

SU-30 only entered 7.4km that was the reason Pakistan didnt come up aggressively and nither destroyed it, just pushed it back.

but ofcourse if any IAF fighter Jet come up almost 10km in the Pakistan air space (either it would be SU-30 or which ever) will be first destroyed and then showed to the world.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Mzubair,
PAF F-16s MLUs are not exactly comparable to Bloc-52 versions AFAIK. Chances of the Current F-16s to lock on the MKI is doubtful, though in WVR the pilot's skill-set also gets into play. However in a BVR scenario the Falcon gets outsmarted. The MKI isn't a purely Russian aircraft, the avionics are a mix of Russian, French, Israeli and Indian gear. For example the HUD is an Israeli Elbit unit. So the radar and other avionics in the F16 doesn't offer any advantage as in case with typical Russian Aircrafts.

The quality of the N011-M Bars PESA radar is far superior to any other radar in entire asia. India has got its capabilities multifold by replacing the entire data processor. Radar is very important element in any BVR engagement, obviously the F-16 loses out there. One interesting aspect of the Bars is, that it can, through mechanical and electronic steering, detect a target at 60km in the rear quadrant. The radar was initially designed to detect an F-16 at 140-160kms.

The ECM is also Israeli, when used to its full capability, it will probably perform very well against the likes of Rafaels and Eurofighters, which are better comparisons to the MKIs. The F-16's capabilities were very much kept in mind while designing the avionics and ECM for the MKIs, because the F-16s are very well known to the Israelis, much more than the PAF.

So, even in a hypothetical situation wherein a F-16C manages to see the MKI, and as the fight developes, the aircraft would burn fuel fast in avoiding missiles and manoeuvering for shots, the F-16C would get more manoeuverable faster than the Su30 owing to its smaller size. But the MKI can keep firing in missiles and causing the F-16 to evade. If they got to visual range combat then things start to turn very sticky for the F-16. Though it can accelerate faster by now, but it only has a couple of shots and it is fighting an opponent that can point in any direction to lock on and launch its missiles. In the end the F-16 is going to run out of fuel and missiles and find itself in a fight with an ultra manoeuverable and still heavily armed MKI that can still afford to use afterburner that even has a 2nd crew member to help maintain situational awareness.

The MKI is more a peer of the EF Typhoon and Rafael, neither of which would have much trouble taking out an F-16.

I am not comparing F-16 and SU-30.
I am just saying that SU-30 violated PAkistan Air space and it was locked by F-16. SU-30 wasnt beyound vision range.
F-16 was behind SU-30 ...just like dog fight and warned it. It was also told by PAF that SU-30 was locked and F-16 went behind it till the Pakistan and Indian border.
I agree with u abt the capabilities of SU-30 and F-16(MLU).

I am not comparing both fighters.

PAF inducitng J-10B, which will be compareable to SU-30MKI. Lets wait and see till 2010.

 

[Zob]

talking aboujt locks and loaded weapons....in an ECM & ELINT operation you keep your plane as light as possible inorder to be more agile you don't send it loaded that is only done in a strike package.....and that makes an Aircraft blotted and less maneuvrable....leading to top cover being provided!!

now i guess in this scenario when tensions were high and AIRFORCES were deployed on to their forward bases.....

in my opinon the IAF sent in a pair of SU-30s to show that we can and are serious about carrying out "SURGICAL STRIKES"....while at the same time they also wanted to carry out an ECM & ELINT operation......so it was just agressive sparring.....

the question then is why not MIG-21 well because MIG ain't the best in the fleet so you send your best to show that hey we are coming in with a delivery package and what have you got to throw at us.....

if i am not wrong the MIG-25 was used in 1998 inorder to see what is pakistan's answer to the MIG....what can pakistan throw at the indians inorder to intercept the incoming mig......at that point in time it was a formidable fighter that pakistan had no answer to so sticking to TACTICS this time you throw in the SU-30 by far the most superior fighter in SOUTH ASIA......

 

[MZUBAIR]

The same source in PAF who said this as per Neo

The report says that the Su-30 was under PAF's firing range but it returned after warning was issued and it was escorted back by a batch of Mig-29's.

Time to get better sources or this incident took place on X Box of some Air Force Mess over a gin and tonic.

Regards

U got the answer, infact u admitted that event (SU-30 was locked and warned by F-16.) in ur this quote.

The report says that the Su-30 was under PAF's firing range but it returned after warning was issued and it was escorted back by a batch of Mig-29's.

why u were crying ?

 

[MZUBAIR]

I doubt any Su was in Kashmir at that time and even then I doubt they would use a Su. Anyway the burden of proof is on the PAF fan boys not me.

To me its seems just some mis-information to keep morale up.

Regards

Hhehhehehe...keep thinking like that !!!