Hatf-VIII Ra'ad II (ALCM) | Updates, News & Discussion

[Blue Marlin]

Its not 'just' a lengthened Ra'ad. The length extension alone does not contributes to 200km range extension.
Similar process has been already applied to Babur-I (500km) to get Babur-II (700km), which still has the same length.

well its would be difficult to understand why they did it if they can add 200km to the babur with out lengthening it.
but at 5.25 meters length (estimated) its near the length of the kepd350 and the storm shadow which are 5+ meters

 

[JamD]

Its not 'just' a lengthened Ra'ad. The length extension alone does not contributes to 200km range extension.
Similar process has been already applied to Babur-I (500km) to get Babur-II (700km), which still has the same length.

To add to your excellent point that most people are missing out on:
A crucial system on any cruise missile is the inertial navigation system. The range may not just be limited by fuel quantity, fuel type, or engine fuel consumption, but also by the acceptable drift in INS (in a gps jammed environment) over the "maximum range". This increase in range of babur and raad could be a reflection of an improvement of sensors and filtering (among other things).

 

[The Deterrent]

I'm not aware of any limitations w.r.t. dimensions Ra'ad has regarding its integration with JF-17. AFAIK Ra'ad-I was in process of being integrated with JF-17.

I have a question. Since Raad II is apparently an upgrade over the existing platform, so why is the design not changed in terms of its size considering JF-17 does not have the same ground clearance as that of Mirage? After all all mirages will eventually be replaced by JF-17 hence it only makes sense if modern weapons are made keeping JF-17 in mind.

Exactly, why would AWC design a weapon that wouldn't be compatible with the PAF 10-15 years down the line? I'm not sure where you guys are getting the idea that Ra'ad is too big to be integrated with JF-17. I believe you guys are missing something out, but then again I'm not very well informed on JF-17's central hard-point limitations.

well its would be difficult to understand why they did it if they can add 200km to the babur with out lengthening it.
but at 5.25 meters length (estimated) its near the length of the kepd350 and the storm shadow which are 5+ meters

Babur has a lot more volume than Ra'ad, which allows for stuff to be 'adjusted' hence increase range without changing the power-plant. That said, both CMs have inefficient turbojets so unfortunately the range is not going to be extended anymore unless some major upgrades are made.

U guys do realise it was a mock up displayed??

There's that too, actual Ra'ad-II might not be a lengthened version at all and might have the same form factor and dimensions.

To add to your excellent point that most people are missing out on:
A crucial system on any cruise missile is the inertial navigation system. The range may not just be limited by fuel quantity, fuel type, or engine fuel consumption, but also by the acceptable drift in INS (in a gps jammed environment) over the "maximum range". This increase in range of babur and raad could be a reflection of an improvement of sensors and filtering (among other things).

Um no thats not the case. Pakistan is advanced enough in the INS domain now to ensure strategic precision in a GPS-denied environment, and surgical precision with integrated GNSS corrections.

 

[Mrc]

There's that too, actual Ra'ad-II might not be a lengthened version at all and might have the same form factor and dimensions.

Actually whole idea of displaying a mock up wud b not to have a faithful representation of design and size... otherwise why to bother at all

 

[Blue Marlin]

Babur has a lot more volume than Ra'ad, which allows for stuff to be 'adjusted' hence increase range without changing the power-plant. That said, both CMs have inefficient turbojets so unfortunately the range is not going to be extended anymore unless some major upgrades are made.

.

why not procure engines on the black market, iran did and they ended up with the noor/c802
theres the
ms400
36-mt (same engine on the nirbhay)
tri-60
and the various chinese options too and belarus too?
or more realistically what about turkey???

 

[The Deterrent]

Actually whole idea of displaying a mock up wud b not to have a faithful representation of design and size... otherwise why to bother at all

I suggest that we wait for a test flight which should be soon. And of course hope that ISPR releases high-res images.

why not procure engines on the black market, iran did and they ended up with the noor/c802
theres the
ms400
36-mt (same engine on the nirbhay)
tri-60
and the various chinese options too and belarus too?
or more realistically what about turkey???

Why go to all that trouble when you can easily do shaapiing at the Chayna Markeeet.
I didn't say it can't be done, it just may take a while. And of course only if Pakistan believes that strike capability of up to 1500 km is an absolute necessity. The capability Pakistan has right now (550 stand-off, 700 surface-launched) isn't that bad. Of course something needs to be done about the SLCM (450 land-attack).

 

[Blue Marlin]

I suggest that we wait for a test flight which should be soon. And of course hope that ISPR releases high-res images.

Why go to all that trouble when you can easily visit the Chayna Markeeet.
I didn't say it can't be done, it just may take a while. And of course only if Pakistan believes that strike capability of up to 1500 km is an absolute necessity. The capability Pakistan has right now (550 stand-off, 700 surface-launched) isn't that bad. Of course something needs to be done about the SLCM (450 land-attack).

if you think something needs to be done to the slcm then why do they think differently?

i personally dont get it, india is a massive country and can be safe from pakistani attack by keeping important assets 1000km away from the border.

as for raad it could have been near to the agm-159 due to its size and weight but it is more even bigger than its european counterpart.

 

[IceCold]

I'm not aware of any limitations w.r.t. dimensions Ra'ad has regarding its integration with JF-17. AFAIK Ra'ad-I was in process of being integrated with JF-17.

Exactly, why would AWC design a weapon that wouldn't be compatible with the PAF 10-15 years down the line? I'm not sure where you guys are getting the idea that Ra'ad is too big to be integrated with JF-17. I believe you guys are missing something out, but then again I'm not very well informed on JF-17's central hard-point limitations.

Ok the first time RAAD was fired from Mirage, there was a debate of the integration of RAAD on JF-17 on the JF-17 thread, a comparison made of Mirage and JF-17 by a member using some tools i dont remember showed that RAAD was rather too wide to be accommodated underneath the JF-17 which means either the landing gear would had to be redesigned or perhaps redesign the entire missile. If not than the wing structure had to be strengthen so that RAAD can be accommodated on one of the hard points. Now i might have mixed a few things up because it was really an old debate so the details are a bit sketchy but overall its what i stated. I hope you understand.

That said, both CMs have inefficient turbojets so unfortunately the range is not going to be extended anymore unless some major upgrades are made.

How far are Chinese turbojet engines and cant we utilise that expertise to make our engines a bit more efficient?

 

[The Deterrent]

if you think something needs to be done to the slcm then why do they think differently?

They don't think differently, its just their first try at an indigenous SLCM. Bear in mind that Agosta-90Bs are the current choice of platform, that will change soon and the range will accordingly catch up.

i personally dont get it, india is a massive country and can be safe from pakistani attack by keeping important assets 1000km away from the border.

Not really, majority of Indian military assets are in strike range of Pakistan's cruise missiles. Only the strategic nuclear missiles will be out of range of Pakistan's cruise missiles, which doesn't matters anyway.

Ok the first time RAAD was fired from Mirage, there was a debate of the integration of RAAD on JF-17 on the JF-17 thread, a comparison made of Mirage and JF-17 by a member using some tools i dont remember showed that RAAD was rather too wide to be accommodated underneath the JF-17 which means either the landing gear would had to be redesigned or perhaps redesign the entire missile. If not than the wing structure had to be strengthen so that RAAD can be accommodated on one of the hard points. Now i might have mixed a few things up because it was really an old debate so the details are a bit sketchy but overall its what i stated. I hope you understand.

I see, well I suppose that some assumptions must have been made in that analysis.

How far are Chinese turbojet engines and cant we utilise that expertise to make our engines a bit more efficient?

The Chinese use turbofans, and the transfer of that expertise might make Uncle Sam very upset so...for now Pakistan is stuck with whatever it can get its hands on. But hey, its been working out so far so I wouldn't be much concerned. Jugaad is our national thing, runs in the blood.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Don't know about others, but in my office RAAD-II has provided a hit!!! Indian folks are talking about it in groups in the cafeteria!!! Little they know that I am a PDF JASUS!!!?!!??

They don't think differently, its just their first try at an indigenous SLCM. Bear in mind that Agosta-90Bs are the current choice of platform, that will change soon and the range will accordingly catch up.

Not really, majority of Indian military assets are in strike range of Pakistan's cruise missiles. Only the strategic nuclear missiles will be out of range of Pakistan's cruise missiles, which doesn't matters anyway.

I see, well I suppose that some assumptions must have been made in that analysis.

The Chinese use turbofans, and the transfer of that expertise might make Uncle Sam very upset so...for now Pakistan is stuck with whatever it can get its hands on. But hey, its been working out so far so I wouldn't be much concerned. Jugaad is our national thing, runs in the blood.

I think the latest visit of Pak chief brought out the news that they want to mass produce these staffs like bunnies (not the one in Beverly Hills though!!)....

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

That's about a truthful as you claiming to be a Turk.

Why? A Turkish folk doesn't understand English?????

to me range increase is useless, i just want to know what is going to replace the mirages for RAAD
i thought it would be redesigned smaller variant for thunder, instead they increased the size
are they getting something bigger than?

Bull's eye!!!!

I'm not aware of any limitations w.r.t. dimensions Ra'ad has regarding its integration with JF-17. AFAIK Ra'ad-I was in process of being integrated with JF-17.

Exactly, why would AWC design a weapon that wouldn't be compatible with the PAF 10-15 years down the line? I'm not sure where you guys are getting the idea that Ra'ad is too big to be integrated with JF-17. I believe you guys are missing something out, but then again I'm not very well informed on JF-17's central hard-point limitations.

Babur has a lot more volume than Ra'ad, which allows for stuff to be 'adjusted' hence increase range without changing the power-plant. That said, both CMs have inefficient turbojets so unfortunately the range is not going to be extended anymore unless some major upgrades are made.

There's that too, actual Ra'ad-II might not be a lengthened version at all and might have the same form factor and dimensions.

Um no thats not the case. Pakistan is advanced enough in the INS domain now to ensure strategic precision in a GPS-denied environment, and surgical precision with integrated GNSS corrections.

You can always have GIS (Geographic info system - 3D) loaded into the guys!!! After all, it's not Saturn - it's the next door neighbor where even the defense minister and chiefs complain about being bugged while in the most secure ops rooms!!!!

U guys do realise it was a mock up displayed??

Curiosity kills the cat!!! What else do you folks have in store!!! The other day they deployed some fire-detection radars at LOC, and you marched past one only after a couple of days!!! They toyed with the idea of First Use, now here we go with longer range air-launched CMs from fighters that can take off from the back alleys!!!!

Why should Pakistan shoot a missile with non-strategic warhead at all? Pakistan has developed micro nukes and every missile might be carrying one.

Mass producing like bunnies is the way to go!!!

US never allows integration of Non-NATO missiles.

The US doesn't allow many things. Does Pak care????

 

[ziaulislam]

Bull's eye!!!!

i dont want to speculate but either the thunder is monstrous enough to carry such an elongated missile or PAF is going to get another Chinese platform very soon to replace mirage 5 in strategic role

I for one was thinking thunder will get the role and hence was expecting a smaller missile rather than doubling the range of current missle

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

no country uses supersonic missiles because it is a detetcted as soon as it launched, much easier to detect due to its high altitude flight, missles need to fly low(but you cant fly fast low) so even if missles do you supersonic version they are usally just end stage, just like chinese systems
you need to educate yourself

only india uses it, and was conned by Russia to fund and buy it LOL

And, on the other hand, a helping hand for the Chinese folks, who by the by are paying back in much greater volumes of what they originally took!!!

And in your head reality is that Pakistan's doesn't have an indigenous cruise missile?. Even sensible Indians would not agree with you. Fair enough. Now you can refrain from expressing your ideas and let there be logical discussion.

Thanks.

If you accept that Pak doesn't have the capability to produce CMs for arguments' sake, then who's producing these for them - similar to the US guys????? Jinns (say, somehow Pak learnt the tricks from Hazret-i Suleyman!!) ??? It's even more scary!!!!!!

 

[Fawadqasim1]

I saw it in parade too and heard its range is about 500 km was it a mockup @The Deterrent

 

[dilpakistani]

nope ... it wasn't ...it has avionics attached to it