HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[nitesh]

DRDO is too slow.

actually that might be under statement but i doubt if MCA will ever fly if all the control is given to DRDO. They are failure themselves, non professional unit because of their bosses. I hope some day media will take a look at them and show how pathetic they are compared to other smiler world organization. with so much man power and brilliant brain behind. The big boss of DRDO are sucking the blood out of Indian defense. And tax payers like me our money is going in their pocket!!!!! with no result to yield out of it.

Excellent BS care to prove the bold part.

You have habit of shooting statements not backing it off with proofs. So this time do that,

 

[Makardhwaj]

IN Aero India 2009

View attachment 0151adbdfdea4e13f5a1878352ab1311.jpg

 

[ironman]

DRDO is too slow.

actually that might be under statement but i doubt if MCA will ever fly if all the control is given to DRDO. They are failure themselves, non professional unit because of their bosses. I hope some day media will take a look at them and show how pathetic they are compared to other smiler world organization. with so much man power and brilliant brain behind. The big boss of DRDO are sucking the blood out of Indian defense. And tax payers like me our money is going in their pocket!!!!! with no result to yield out of it.

Please don't underestimate anybody without any solid reason. During the Aero India 2009 there was a seminar conducted on this base, I am posting here some facts which they have faced. Its a copy from another forum please excuse. It is posted in Bharat Rakshak forum by k Prasad. So credit goes to him.


An overview of the Kaveri situation was provided by the GTRE director, T. Mohan Rao, who was accompanied by his senior scientists. The hall was packed, and the language and tone of his speech was sadly self-depracating and pleading. Almost as if DRDO has also started losing faith - he had to explain whats going on and why its happening. Sad to see, but there are clear silver linings in the story.

1. He pointed out that the change in IAF requirements and the increase in all up wt by 2 tons killed the Kaveri as they knew it, simply because it could not in any way be able to achieve the new requirements... he was quite angry that they had been blamed for what was obviously not their fault, ie, a low-performing Kaveri for the updated reqs. Bypass Ratio is 0.16 to 0.18... he pointed out that if it had to meet the new stds, the bypass would have to be at least 0.35 to 0.45.

2. 4 Cores and 8 Kaveris built, 1800 hrs testing done.

Thrsut demonstrated: 4774 kgf dry (design value reached). 7000 kgf reheat (2.5-3% shortfall)

3. Pressure ratio - 21.5 overall.

Fan - 3 stage, 3.4 pressure ratio, Surge margin>20.
Compressor 6.4 pressure,Surge>23.
Combustor - efficiency >99%, high intensity annular combustor. Pattern factor of 0.35 and 0.14

Note: These are ACHIEVED values.

4. The present Kaveri will not power combat LCAs, although it will be fitted to an LCA within 9 months. The new program, which is the Kaveri with Snecma Eco core of 90kN will be used. The preslim design studies and configuration have beeen completed.

5.Birdhit requirements of 85% thrust after hit at 0.4-0.5 Mach have been shown and achieved.

6. He pointed out the major factor in delays being them not being given enough infrastructure and testing facilities - Govt has not given funds, babus have sat on them. Instead, they have had to go to CIAM in Russia and Anecom in Germany for tests.

He mentioned that this was the biggest problem - one of the issues they have was in engine strain and the blade throws - they tried to isolate all the causes for 3 yrs, but only when they took it to CIAM for the Non Intrusive Strain Measurement (NSMS) tests did they realize that there were excess vibrations of the 3rd order of engine frequency being developed.... imagine if the facility was there in india.

Then, the compressor tests also, it was only at the Anecom that they could see that the 1st 2 stages were surged by 20%, while the rest were "as dead as government servants" (his quote - shows how low on confidence they are i guess). He pointed out that that would have saved a lot of time and money if that facility was in india. They have since fixed the issue.

Then, the afterburner tests, (the much highlighted high altitude failure) at CIAM - the reqt is for 50% thrust boost over dry thrust at 88% efficiency. The K5 prototype failed in 2003, after working perfectly in the GTRE. They realized that they could not achieve lightup at high altitudes (Dry thrust worked ok).

They took another new engine block and the afterburner worked perfectly and has been certified to 15 km.

7. The good news..... they will conduct complete engine trials in CIAM in March. If these trials are successful (and they are highly confident), the Kaveri will be integrated on the LCA within 9 months.

The KADECU FADEC system with manual backup has also been fully certified.

8. The bad news again - The present requirements would need the core to pump out 15-20% more power, which is impossible... hence the eco. Not that there is anything wrong with the core.

He mentioned that otherwise, the Kaveri has met the original requirements, or will meet within the next month, and is good for all other uses except a "combat LCA" - ie, CAT, LIFT, LCA Trainer, etc.

9. When asked where we lack, he mentioned 4 key areas

a. BLISK - integrated single Blade and Disk
b. Single Crystal blades - he categorically said - We do not have that tech at all.
c. Thermal Barrier Coatings - TBC - very critical for high temp engine operation. A talk on this by an American Indian prof attracted a house full audience. He mentioned that this is highly critical and export controlled, so they dont have it.

The last two points were mentioned by Dir, DMRL as one of their areas of research, but I was not able to quiz him on it. PLEASE QUIZ ANY DMRL GUYS U MEET ON THIS.

Mohan Rao appealed that people should realize that this tech takes time, and money, and more importantly, willpower and support.... its not being given by foriegn nations, so if we have to develop, it needs support. This stance found strong support from Saraswat, Sundaram and Selvamurthy in the closing ceremony.

They are not looking at TVC just yet, and it is in the hands of other labs at the moment.

However, the ADE presentation on UCAVs showed a future Indian UCAV (2015) with no tail (MCA design), a non-conventional wingform, and a 3 axis TVC.

10. OK, some nos....

Fan - Successful tests at CIAM
Compressor: (nos in brackets are design values)

6 stage axial flow, 3 stage variable vanes with IGVs.
Corr. tip speed ~370 m/s
Inlet diam: 590 mm

Mass flow: 24.13 kg/s (24.3)
Pressure: 6.42 (6.38)
Efficiency: 85.4% (85%)
Surge %: 21.6 (20% designed)

Combustor:
Has undergone aero testing at CIAM
K8 V4 combustor is close to design.

Turbine:
Pressure = 3.6
Mass flow function= 1.1
Isentropic eff = 85%
Max. TET = 1700K

Is a success, has met design.

11. Future uses:

Navy - KMGT - 1 MW for small ships being developed, 5-6 MW KMGT is a sucess and runs on Diesel, instead of the usual kerosene aviation fuel.

The railways also wants a 7-8MW CNG run engine, which will be a challenge in terms of fuel supply, rather than teh combustion itself, which shouldn't be a problem.

 

[indiatech]

What a gr8st piece of garbage this is? Can you just tell me how. And if you can't prove apologize for this shi$ comment.

Shitty comment? Well you will you know when you speak with some of the GE aircraft engine engineers , ex GTRE. Learn technologies at GTRE with the money that govt pumped over decades to GTRE and fly away to france and US to develop and enhance foreign engines. I know couple of them.

Sorry but I will not appologize to no one. Coz i am not the run for money type when there is job back home and expectation of people are high.

Patriotism is ok, but facts are facts .

Private enterprises won't let their employees ditch them that easy. It is time to hand over a crucial project to private contractor if you want them to happen fast and see results soon. At least if it is a no or failure, you will see it soon and not wait for ages to deliver performance.

 

[nitesh]

so this is clear rebuttel of DDM reports that there is no working engine. there is a working engine but unfortunately does not meet the requirement. Good achievement. Give some time they will come up with an engine that will meet the requirements.

Gr8 work GTRE.

 

[nitesh]

Shitty comment? Well you will you know when you speak with some of the GE aircraft engine engineers , ex GTRE. Learn technologies at GTRE with the money that govt pumped over decades to GTRE and fly away to france and US to develop and enhance foreign engines. I know couple of them.

Sorry but I will not appologize to no one. Coz i am not the run for money type when there is job back home and expectation of people are high.

Patriotism is ok, but facts are facts .

Private enterprises won't let their employees ditch them that easy. It is time to hand over a crucial project to private contractor if you want them to happen fast and see results soon. At least if it is a no or failure, you will see it soon and not wait for ages to deliver performance.

Are you mad? What have you written had you even done any sort of research before typing this. Don't give some people example who does not matter to any one. It's a professional choice if some body wants to leave an organization, then let him/her go. Give me one private enterprise whose not a single employee has been left it. Will not let them go easy!!. Define the term easy. Or that is a Moronic statement so say at least. Do you even know what is the infrastructure that needs to be built for creating an organization. What is the amount of money pumped in and compare it with similar projects running in other countries (in terms of starting from scratch with having no damn experience of even building up a previous generation product add costs like setting up an organization in terms of buildings also training the guys designing a product building it testing it ) and then give me one Indian Private enterprise which was having these facility and to start this project when it started or for that matter in present. Or else keep the mouth shut.

These organizations has given a lot. It is not about patriotism it is about looking at the whole picture. Seeing from where work has begun and where it it has bought in present in terms of knowledge. For example, check out marine kaveri versions (look in to the interview of GTRE director Mr. T. Mohan Rao: In aircraft engine development, you cannot set a timeline - Technology - livemint.com).

 

[nitesh]

The Hindu : National : Full squadron strength in eight years: Air Chief

On the Light Combat Aircraft, he said trials in cold weather and weapons firing were over and it should be operational by late 2010 or early 2011. The IAF had placed an order with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 40 indigenous LCA ‘Tejas.’

 

[indiatech]

Are you mad? What have you written had you even done any sort of research before typing this. Don't give some people example who does not matter to any one. It's a professional choice if some body wants to leave an organization, then let him/her go. Give me one private enterprise whose not a single employee has been left it. Will not let them go easy!!. Define the term easy. Or that is a Moronic statement so say at least. Do you even know what is the infrastructure that needs to be built for creating an organization. What is the amount of money pumped in and compare it with similar projects running in other countries (in terms of starting from scratch with having no damn experience of even building up a previous generation product add costs like setting up an organization in terms of buildings also training the guys designing a product building it testing it ) and then give me one Indian Private enterprise which was having these facility and to start this project when it started or for that matter in present. Or else keep the mouth shut.

These organizations has given a lot. It is not about patriotism it is about looking at the whole picture. Seeing from where work has begun and where it it has bought in present in terms of knowledge. For example, check out marine kaveri versions (look in to the interview of GTRE director Mr. T. Mohan Rao: In aircraft engine development, you cannot set a timeline - Technology - livemint.com).

watch ur language mate. Don't ask me to keep my mouth shut. What ever you think or narrate doesn't have to do anything with this. What have we done making the infrustructure at GTRE ? We are not having a working engine now that passes the tests. You are blaming that private sectors doesn't have infructures to build defence products. well when did we give them a chance to work independently on a prestigious project like building an aircraft? Or when did we share secrets with them ? Do you know why the defence contractors exists at all? most of the successful ones being privates.

 

[nitesh]

watch ur language mate. Don't ask me to keep my mouth shut. What ever you think or narrate doesn't have to do anything with this. What have we done making the infrustructure at GTRE ? We are not having a working engine now that passes the tests. You are blaming that private sectors doesn't have infructures to build defence products. well when did we give them a chance to work independently on a prestigious project like building an aircraft? Or when did we share secrets with them ? Do you know why the defence contractors exists at all? most of the successful ones being privates.

So you still hadn't understood the basic thing. And still running around beating the bush. You are the one who started with a rhetoric.

Now there are two parts:

Is there is a working engine: Answer is YES:

Check the presentation from AI 09
RapidShare Webhosting + Webspace

So stop the rhetoric here. That there is no working engine ok.

The second portion: Does it suffice the NEW IAF requirement: Answer is NO.

So the point is there is a working engine which does not meat the NEW requirement for Combat LCA. For this a new core needs to be developed. That is why LCA is going to use another engine.


Now where it can be used: Check out info about the marine versions. Can be used in UCAV. Check the interview I have given the link in previous post.

Now the point is who has stopped some private player from making anything? If some private entity wants to make something let them invest the money in building the infrastructure the human capital and then let them present to IAF. If IAF likes it they will use it.

And stop telling that public sector companies are not transferring the tech to private sector. Check the DRDO life science laboratory which has transferred the formula of ready made food to private sector which they have developed it for armed forces. (This is just one example there are a lot of info posted in this forum only give some time read about those and then comment.)
Check the sub contractors for building of Akash system.

 

[indiatech]

So you still hadn't understood the basic thing. And still running around beating the bush. You are the one who started with a rhetoric.

Now there are two parts:

Is there is a working engine: Answer is YES:

Check the presentation from AI 09
RapidShare Webhosting + Webspace

So stop the rhetoric here. That there is no working engine ok.

The second portion: Does it suffice the NEW IAF requirement: Answer is NO.

So the point is there is a working engine which does not meat the NEW requirement for Combat LCA. For this a new core needs to be developed. That is why LCA is going to use another engine.


Now where it can be used: Check out info about the marine versions. Can be used in UCAV. Check the interview I have given the link in previous post.

Now the point is who has stopped some private player from making anything? If some private entity wants to make something let them invest the money in building the infrastructure the human capital and then let them present to IAF. If IAF likes it they will use it.

And stop telling that public sector companies are not transferring the tech to private sector. Check the DRDO life science laboratory which has transferred the formula of ready made food to private sector which they have developed it for armed forces. (This is just one example there are a lot of info posted in this forum only give some time read about those and then comment.)
Check the sub contractors for building of Akash system.

If there is no infrustructure, how is L&T building launchers and akash system. You are contradicing urself. Kaveri isn't a sucess yet as it can't wotk in high altitude. Its pathetic that privates weren't let into the developments since ages. Now that atleast people realizes that without privates we will be 50 years behind defence producers. Stop quoting DFRL as it is out of context with hardware and software.

Great work GTRE, long live GRTE etc etc won't help. The structure and participation needs to change and so is the accountability.

This out of context discussion stops right here. PM me if you still want to take it.

 

[nitesh]

If there is no infrustructure, how is L&T building launchers and akash system. You are contradicing urself. Kaveri isn't a sucess yet as it can't wotk in high altitude. Its pathetic that privates weren't let into the developments since ages. Now that atleast people realizes that without privates we will be 50 years behind defence producers. Stop quoting DFRL as it is out of context with hardware and software.

Great work GTRE, long live GRTE etc etc won't help. The structure and participation needs to change and so is the accountability.

This out of context discussion stops right here. PM me if you still want to take it.

Oh so this is great now a launcher of a missile system is getting compared to a Jet engine. So where else you want to hop on and on and on. You started the thing saying that tatas can make MCA fly in 5 years (post no 956). Check my reply post no 958 I asked you to prove your statement. You haven't substantiated it with any solid reasoning STILL. Then you ran towards somebody leaving GTRE for engine development in other countries and said what is achieved with the money pumped in (post no 965). Also you mentioned that private players will not let any body go easily in which way it was realted to your original comment of making a plane in 5 years? Then check the post 967 I pointed out the interview whihc mentions the achievement of GTRE which is response to your post no 965 that what has been achieved with money getting pumped in.

Then you ran with saying that there is no working engine without even reading the reply which says that engine is working. Then again when pointed out that there is a working engine.

Now you are again changine the things by comparing a launcher of a missile system with a jet engine. Apples to oranges comparison.

So you started with a useless comment which you have not STILL substantiated with any logic and running around the tree saying whatever you want to say. Don't comment without any logic.

PS: PM me if you have any logical thing that can be discussed otherwise I am not interested.

 

[indiatech]

Oh so this is great now a launcher of a missile system is getting compared to a Jet engine. So where else you want to hop on and on and on. You started the thing saying that tatas can make MCA fly in 5 years (post no 956). Check my reply post no 958 I asked you to prove your statement. You haven't substantiated it with any solid reasoning STILL. Then you ran towards somebody leaving GTRE for engine development in other countries and said what is achieved with the money pumped in (post no 965). Also you mentioned that private players will not let any body go easily in which way it was realted to your original comment of making a plane in 5 years? Then check the post 967 I pointed out the interview whihc mentions the achievement of GTRE which is response to your post no 965 that what has been achieved with money getting pumped in.

Then you ran with saying that there is no working engine without even reading the reply which says that engine is working. Then again when pointed out that there is a working engine.

Now you are again changine the things by comparing a launcher of a missile system with a jet engine. Apples to oranges comparison.

So you started with a useless comment which you have not STILL substantiated with any logic and running around the tree saying whatever you want to say. Don't comment without any logic.

PS: PM me if you have any logical thing that can be discussed otherwise I am not interested.

yes boss. i give up. You r definitely the one with most knowledge considering your seniority . you are great. i didnt keep running around. u r the one who brought the food/life sciences things , also Akash system. read ur previous post. Were that relevent? My stand is still same and will remain same. Bring in private cos NOW!! Condering the delivery models of privates i have strong reasons to believe that TATA will fly a protorype with foreign collaboration in 5 years.

Since i have accepted my defeat like GTRE. Now please stop this.

 

[nitesh]

yes boss. i give up. You r definitely the one with most knowledge considering your seniority . you are great. i didnt keep running around. u r the one who brought the food/life sciences things , also Akash system. read ur previous post. Were that relevent? My stand is still same and will remain same. Bring in private cos NOW!! Condering the delivery models of privates i have strong reasons to believe that TATA will fly a protorype with foreign collaboration in 5 years.

Since i have accepted my defeat like GTRE. Now please stop this.

I am not the greatest. All i am saying is look in to the whole picture don't just shoot the statement it all started with you claiming that TATA can fly MCA in five years you STILL not done anything to prove it. Then you started the GTRE thing saying that there is only money getting pumped in with no results, Check the links posted that there is a working engine with derivates also.

Then you said that private sector has not got the chance wot work (post no. 969). Then I said about what DRDO has done for them. If you can put the reason in front so that we can have debate over that. rather then hopping around here and there.

And stop comparing you the sore loser to some organization. Seriously you have some mental issue it seems. You can't do anything logically or what. Seriously you better keep your bad mouth shut only.

 

[ejaz007]

Sky power & lot of smoke
SUJAN DUTTA

A Tejas aircraft at Aero India 2009 at Yelahanka. (PTI)
Bangalore, Feb. 12: A flaming orange lights its tail, a spiral of smoke charts its barrel-roll and India’s very own Tejas is today looking like a combat aircraft in the skies over Yelahanka, Bangalore.

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has a long history and a past that is torturing the Indian Air Force’s present and future. But at least now, for the first time in public view, it is looking like the fighter aircraft it was meant to be... a quarter century back.

The sight of the Tejas (radiance) performing in a field with the F-16, the Superhornet and the Eurofighter that streak through the skies over here every hour is fuel for patriotic fervour. Defence minister A.K. Anthony says it fills him — as it should every Indian — with pride.

The IAF is less than sure. One reason why the F-16 and the Eurofighter are flying here is to compete for an order to become part of the IAF’s inventory. And the IAF is issuing the order because the LCA Tejas is way behind schedule.

Had the LCA Tejas met its schedules, the IAF would not have had to go in for a global tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft — that may be scaled up to more than 200 in a follow-up order.

“We are producing 40 LCAs of the mark I variety for initial operational clearance and then we will go on to the mark II variety after deciding on the engine. We cannot give timeframes now,” Hindustan Aeronautics chairman Ashok Baweja said.

That leaves the IAF still guessing about timelines.

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

 

[ejaz007]

Full squadron strength in eight years: Air Chief
K.V. Prasad

By 2010, IAF will have integrated command
IAF will launch own satellite by 2010
Pakistan having F-16s not an issue: Air Chief


BANGALORE: Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major on Thursday said the Indian Air Force would have its full sanctioned strength of 39 squadrons in eight years and asserted that operating at lesser strength did not compromise its fighting edge.

“The programme of phasing out, upgrading and induction is being carried out in a concerted manner without losing the combat edge. We should be able to reach 39 squadrons by 2017 and will have what we want and more by 2020,” the Air Chief said at a press conference here. All air forces in the world went through this process, he pointed out.

Emphasising that technology was at the core of any air force, he said there was a conscious move to reduce different kinds of aircraft from the present varied inventory so that ultimately, the IAF would have fewer kinds of combat and transport aircraft and helicopters. This was essential for better management of both the aircraft and weapon systems as it was a challenge to manage and maintain a varied inventory.

By this June, the IAF would connect all its 165 operational and other nodes through a secure fibre optic network while work on the voice and data net was also progressing well. By 2010, the IAF would have integrated command and control systems linking its entire operational data links to network platforms sensors, command and controls. The IAF would launch its own satellite by mid-2010.

Asked about the preparedness of the IAF in the wake of reports of China building infrastructure across the Indian borders, he said: “We have our force deployment in a manner which caters for all likely adversaries in a situation of low intensity conflict.”

To a question how the IAF looked at Pakistan having F-16, he said it was not an issue as he knew what Pakistan’s F-16 was capable of. It was not the aircraft but the type of equipment, including weapon systems, that was important and the capacity to tweak the system, exploit it and employ tactics.

Radars

He admitted there were gaps on low-level radars in the country but the IAF had them in key areas.

As for the threat perception from unused airfields in the country, he said it was for the respective State governments to keep surveillance.

On the Light Combat Aircraft, he said trials in cold weather and weapons firing were over and it should be operational by late 2010 or early 2011. The IAF had placed an order with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 40 indigenous LCA ‘Tejas.’

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::