HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[jarves]

south korean solid state s band aesa.............for KF-X project!!

Already found it and read half of the thread.I have started to like your way of posting.Really very informative thread.Atleast now i know something about AESA radar.

 

[he-man]

south korean solid state s band aesa.............for KF-X project!!

As u will see I got schooled in that thread and thank god now I know more than many ppl here

 

[jarves]

As u will see I got schooled in that thread and thank god now I know more than many ppl here

I found some info on our X-band AESA radar project.I will post in that thread if i will be lucky to find it again.

 

[he-man]

I found some info on our X-band AESA radar project.I will post in that thread if i will be lucky to find it again.

Oh we too posted pics of our aesa and mmic's that were fabricated in house for l-star aesa

 

[sancho]

Isn't an old story? since f 16 and f 18 is out from mmrca, 2052 aesa is available for us now imo.

No, in MMRCA they denied it to Saab which wanted it for their Gripen offer. But they later denied it to us and LCA too, just like they denied several tech requests regarding LCA earlier and even today the biggest issue for most US weapon deals is tech transfer, although there seems to be some progress. Let's wait and see.

Can't they use Rafale's AESA considering we will be using it large numbers? So there will be commonality, or is it impossible due to dimensions of Tejas?

Yes, that's what I am suggesting for a long time as well. The dimensons shouldn't be a problem, since the RBE 2 is rather small, because of the FSO in the back and Tejas has a pretty large nose for it's overall size too. In fact, it might be even possible to add FSO (which will be build by Samtel in India) too and LCA could benefit from the same long range ID and IRST capabilities as Rafale too. Two important capabilities for a fighter that was developed to have a low RCS and remain passive in first place, so clear operational advantages. The fact that we will build all this in India anyway and that it provides commonality within the fleet should be additional points to go for it. The problem is that DRDO and too many Indians in general look at LCA or similar projects with a narrow and nationalistic point of view. They would rather limit LCAs and IAFs operational capability with Indian techs that are not mature enough, than using foreign parts even if fully produced in India. That's why ADA officias stated that the early MK2s might come with the indigenous puls doppler MMR (insane when you keep the time line of induction around 2020 in mind), followed by the indigenous AESA when it's ready. So we are delaying LCA again for PR reasons.

 

[rockstarIN]

No, in MMRCA they denied it to Saab which wanted it for their Gripen offer. But they later denied it to us and LCA too, just like they denied several tech requests regarding LCA earlier and even today the biggest issue for most US weapon deals is tech transfer, although there seems to be some progress. Let's wait and see.



Yes, that's what I am suggesting for a long time as well. The dimensons shouldn't be a problem, since the RBE 2 is rather small, because of the FSO in the back and Tejas has a pretty large nose for it's overall size too. In fact, it might be even possible to add FSO (which will be build by Samtel in India) too and LCA could benefit from the same long range ID and IRST capabilities as Rafale too. Two important capabilities for a fighter that was developed to have a low RCS and remain passive in first place, so clear operational advantages. The fact that we will build all this in India anyway and that it provides commonality within the fleet should be additional points to go for it. The problem is that DRDO and too many Indians in general look at LCA or similar projects with a narrow and nationalistic point of view. They would rather limit LCAs and IAFs operational capability with Indian techs that are not mature enough, than using foreign parts even if fully produced in India. That's why ADA officias stated that the early MK2s might come with the indigenous puls doppler MMR (insane when you keep the time line of induction around 2020 in mind), followed by the indigenous AESA when it's ready. So we are delaying LCA again for PR reasons.

A single engine power is enough for RBE2?

 

[sancho]

A single engine power is enough for RBE2?

One of the test aircrafts for it was the Mirage 2000:

Rafale News: Thales RBE-2 AESA mystery

 

[he-man]

No, in MMRCA they denied it to Saab which wanted it for their Gripen offer. But they later denied it to us and LCA too, just like they denied several tech requests regarding LCA earlier and even today the biggest issue for most US weapon deals is tech transfer, although there seems to be some progress. Let's wait and see.



Yes, that's what I am suggesting for a long time as well. The dimensons shouldn't be a problem, since the RBE 2 is rather small, because of the FSO in the back and Tejas has a pretty large nose for it's overall size too. In fact, it might be even possible to add FSO (which will be build by Samtel in India) too and LCA could benefit from the same long range ID and IRST capabilities as Rafale too. Two important capabilities for a fighter that was developed to have a low RCS and remain passive in first place, so clear operational advantages. The fact that we will build all this in India anyway and that it provides commonality within the fleet should be additional points to go for it. The problem is that DRDO and too many Indians in general look at LCA or similar projects with a narrow and nationalistic point of view. They would rather limit LCAs and IAFs operational capability with Indian techs that are not mature enough, than using foreign parts even if fully produced in India. That's why ADA officias stated that the early MK2s might come with the indigenous puls doppler MMR (insane when you keep the time line of induction around 2020 in mind), followed by the indigenous AESA when it's ready. So we are delaying LCA again for PR reasons.

I am totally opposed to any off shelf aesa purchase.

We need to make an aesa sometime and cannot rely on imports all the time.it will be a bit inferior,thats it.
We have to take this plunge at some time like chinese did with their ship borne aesas.

Otherwise after 10 years we will start importing gaN aesas instead of gaA on the same pretext that our aesa is not upto the mark.
This viscious cycle needs to stop asap

 

[sancho]

I am totally opposed to any off shelf aesa purchase.

We need to make an aesa sometime and cannot rely on imports all the time.it will be a bit inferior,thats it.

That's the same mindset that messed up the LCA as a project so much, because we wanted everything to be indigenous and combined all developments at once, which increased the risks of delays and development failures multiple times and that although the one has nothing to do with the other!

You can develop Kaveri engine de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
You can develop a puls dopler or even an AESA MMR de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
You can develop indigenous weapons de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature...

So it's not about making us dependent on foreign techs, or not developing indigenous radars, but it's about to not make the LCA fighter dependent on the success of other developments!

LCA MK2 with GE 414 engine, RBE 2 AESA, FSO, Derby and current Paveway LGBs, would simply be available earlier, than if we wait for the indigenous AESA, for the development of indigenous IRST, for Astra and Sudarshan.

 

[Dillinger]

That's the same mindset that messed up the LCA as a project so much, because we wanted everything to be indigenous and combined all developments at once, which increased the risks of delays and development failures multiple times and that although the one has nothing to do with the other!

You can develop Kaveri engine de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
You can develop a puls dopler or even an AESA MMR de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
You can develop indigenous weapons de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature...

So it's not about making us dependent on foreign techs, or not developing indigenous radars, but it's about to not make the LCA fighter dependent on the success of other developments!

LCA MK2 with GE 414 engine, RBE 2 AESA, FSO, Derby and current Paveway LGBs, would simply be available earlier, than if we wait for the indigenous AESA, for the development of indigenous IRST, for Astra and Sudarshan.

We can't retrofit the Kaveri on to the Tejas (either Marks), once an engine has been chosen and then put in to operational service then a new family of engines from a completely different OEM cannot be an option even during a MLU since the whole MRO and depot level maintenance system (among other things) will get mucked up irreversibly.

An engine change of such a manner though would be feasible once the Tejas has served its time and if then for some reason we still wish to retain it (like in the case of the Jaguars).

As for not letting the Tejas be held hostage to ab initio ventures in the realm of engines and AESA radars, it should have been the way opted for but alas we did not.

 

[sancho]

We can't retrofit the Kaveri on to the Tejas (either Marks), once an engine has been chosen and then put in to operational service then a new family of engines from a completely different OEM cannot be an option even during a MLU

That's not correct, just look at the Chinese fighters that are replacing the proven Russian engines they used as a stop gap with indigenous engines now. Or look at the Gripen NG tech demo, that used the RM 12 and then switched to the GE 414, although the base airframe is a Gripen D, not to forget that the EJ 200 was on offer as well. Another example are the F16s that are switching between GE and P&W engines during upgrades or depending on customer demand...

The official DRDO statements till recently was always that they want to replace the GE 404s of the LCA MK1 during the MLU with Kaveri engine, when it's ready and mature enough. If that has changed now it's sad for the engine project, but doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible.

As for not letting the Tejas be held hostage to ab initio ventures in the realm of engines and AESA radars, it should have been the way opted for but alas we did not.

We should had done it with the puls doppler MMR first and simply taking a licence production for the EL2032, but we didn't and delayed the whole thing. Doing the same mistake now with MK2 again, or even letting MK2 using outdated puls doppler MMRs around 2020, only because we want indigenous radars, just shows that DRDO has not learned from their mistakes, or are not willing to learn!

 

[Dillinger]

That's not correct, just look at the Chinese fighters that are replacing the proven Russian engines they used as a stop gap with indigenous engines now. Or look at the Gripen NG tech demo, that used the RM 12 and then switched to the GE 414, although the base airframe is a Gripen D, not to forget that the EJ 200 was on offer as well. Another example are the F16s that are switching between GE and P&W engines during upgrades or depending on customer demand...

The official DRDO statements till recently was always that they want to replace the GE 404s of the LCA MK1 during the MLU with Kaveri engine, when it's ready and mature enough. If that has changed now it's sad for the engine project, but doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible.




We should had done it with the puls doppler MMR first and simply taking a licence production for the EL2032, but we didn't and delayed the whole thing. Doing the same mistake now with MK2 again, or even letting MK2 using outdated puls doppler MMRs around 2020, only because we want indigenous radars, just shows that DRDO has not learned from their mistakes, or are not willing to learn!

The only difference being that the re-engined platforms are treated as different tranches altogether while we on the other hand already have a mark-2 slated with another foreign engine. Unless the IAF decides to convert its Mark-1s to LIFTs after a certain period (after MLU) once the Mark-2s have found their place in the force I don't see much of a chance of such a costly venture being undertaken. Specially considering that the IAF isn't big on the Mark-1 to begin with anyway and therefore would not look kindly upon shelling the extra bucks. Its not a question of international precedence but of our own context.

 

[sancho]

The only difference being that the re-engined platforms are treated as different tranches altogether while we on the other hand already have a mark-2 slated with another foreign engine.

It doesn't matter how you call it, the fact is, it's technically possible! So we can make LCA Mk1 to LCA MK3 or MLU, by adding a new engine and other technical upgrades.

Unless the IAF decides to convert its Mark-1s to LIFTs after a certain period (after MLU) once the Mark-2s have found their place in the force I don't see much of a chance of such a costly venture being undertaken. Specially considering that the IAF isn't big on the Mark-1 to begin with anyway and therefore would not look kindly upon shelling the extra bucks. Its not a question of international precedence but of our own context.

I don't even think they would do the upgrade to the MK2, but simply replace the MK1s with new MK2s, just like they replaced Su 30 MKs with new MKIs instead of upgrading them. However, even for the further development of the Kaveri engine, it is important to integrate it into LCA, be it for ground and taxi trials, or even later as a flying engine test bed, so there shouldn't be high costs involved.
Not to mention that Kaveri can even be a future replacement of the GE 414 of the MK2, it only depends on what the future thrust aim of the engine is.
Another point is the fact that LCA is aimed on exports somewhere down the line and then you need an independent engine, to not fall under US export restrictions.

So ruling out Kaveri for LCA is far too early, it is good to de-link the project from the fighter project, but the long term aim must still to replace as many foreign engines from IAF and IN fighters as possible:

- LCA MK1 and 2
- Mig 29K
- Rafale
- AMCA

Which shows that there is a huge demand in our forces for a mature and capable indigenous engine in the next 40, in high numbers years!

 

[he-man]

That's the same mindset that messed up the LCA as a project so much, because we wanted everything to be indigenous and combined all developments at once, which increased the risks of delays and development failures multiple times and that although the one has nothing to do with the other!

You can develop Kaveri engine de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
You can develop a puls dopler or even an AESA MMR de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature.
You can develop indigenous weapons de-linked from LCA and could still integrate it later, if fully developed and mature...

So it's not about making us dependent on foreign techs, or not developing indigenous radars, but it's about to not make the LCA fighter dependent on the success of other developments!

LCA MK2 with GE 414 engine, RBE 2 AESA, FSO, Derby and current Paveway LGBs, would simply be available earlier, than if we wait for the indigenous AESA, for the development of indigenous IRST, for Astra and Sudarshan.

There is a huge diff between engine tech and a radar.

We have already made a s-band aesa l-star for aew&c and we need to make a fighter x band too.

And we already have done some work so why not?
Okay,import the trm's but at least do the rest.
Even that would be a step forward

 

[sancho]

And we already have done some work so why not?

Because the work we did so far on fighter radars failed as well! The LRDE puls doppler radar isn't ready and mature yet either. LCA MK1 most likely gets the EL 2032, with some mission computers from India. That's just what we do with MKIs BARS radar, or what we plan to do with FGFAs radar, but our own basic radar is not even capable enough to be fitted to the Jaguar upgrade, so what does it tell you about how realistic or risky it is, to make LCA MK2 dependent on the indigenous AESA?

Indigenous puls doppler radar project should be killed right away, because it's far too late for that tech, especially if it only comes for early MK2s. Let them focus on indigenous AESA, but add it to any platform when it's actully ready and not only by the hope it could be ready soon. In the meantime take a proven foreign AESA, to make the Mk2 uprgade simpler and on time.