Gen Tariq Khan, IG FC: We had to clear Afghan border village because NATO was MIA

[fatman17]

Folks,

This is getting too personal. Keep the posts clean and focus on the issues and not the person.

Any more of the personal attacks will get removed. Slides and Sonic have both made their points. Lets move off this tangent and focus on DGFC's comments.

Thank you.

about time too!

 

[fatman17]

hmmm.. NATO doesn't like to hold ground and conduct infantry ops. This info does not surpirse me. Plus there seems to be lack of coordination between Pak and US in this operation.
US seems to like nothing but drone strikes and air assaults. Their infantry is doing precious little.

their ToE's are different to ours!

 

[fatman17]

As far as Pakistani people are concerned, I care less for them.

and you consider yourself a pakistani !!!

 

[fatman17]

Fatman17,

Thankyou for putting something in your own words except for paste and post

at your service sir! 1148 and counting!

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Hi,

At that time, Al qaeda was the wind of death, in the land that it passed through, it left dead bodies in its wake---it was the black plague of its time---every thing that al qaeda touched, it was destroyed. They had no compassion and no love for anyone. They brought death and destruction to everyone who gave them a sanctuary---was it in sudan---somalia, afghanistan or pakistan---one after the other. They were the outcasts of every nation.

The sudanese---they saw the light---they are muslims too---they also support the idea of giving refuge to one who asks---but to them, nation came first and foremost. So when the u s threatend to bomb them---they openly stated to hand over OBL to the u s---when the u s didnot accept---they expelled him out of sudan---. Sudan---yemen---saudi arabia---they are all brothers---first cousins---where does afg come into the picture---.

I have always and forcefully stated that the afg govt of mullah Omar and pak govt should have made everything possible to stop the invasion of christian armies into the muslim lands of afg, at all cost---even if that cost was the execution of OBL and his troika and the rest the cohorts.

The taliban wanted to get into the intricacies of proof---give us the proof ---. They should have had the vision to avail the oppurtunity to build afghanistan on the skeletons of al qaeda---.

Allah---our Lord the merciful and benvolent gives in mysterious and strange ways---and HE The Almighty says so as well---Allah gave the taliban the oppurtunity to make a nation for themselves---they could have sold the murderer of 3000 people to america and in return taken the resources to build the nation of afg---.

What is the death of 50 odd al qaeda fighters and their leaders in comparison to the death of 250000 plus afghans killed since the war starting in 2002---the land of the muslims occupied by christian armies---who at one time had a lots opf NGO's teaching christianity---.

You have to ask youself---what is the worth and welfare of a free nation----if you asked the muhajirs at the time of 1947----they would have said---everything and anything---me---my life---the life of my family---my property--my job---everything and anything just to be free of the shackles.

The taliban chose to be conquered again and put in shackles---and the paks took it upon themselves not to pursue the al qaeda at the slopes of the mountains on the other side of tora bora.

It is analyzed that OBL and his cohorts were done at tora bora---he had already read his last rites---our forces just let them get away. Let them escape so easily, without realizing what the consequences would be.

In one instance---FC jawan capture around 30 al qaeda operatives coming down the mountains---they want to shackle and secure the prisoners---the officer incharge states---these are our muslim brother---let them be---they are being put in the bus---when they turn around at an oppurtune moment and grab the rifles of the FC men and shoot and kill ten or twelve of them and escape into the mountain armed---this was in the news and the officers admittance of his error as well---on the dead bodies of FC jawans---.

These people should have been executed right then and there---no questions asked---pakistan was not a free for all nation.

Then Musharraf stated in one of his speehces---al qaeda men holed up in a house---soldiers are telling the major to blow up the house---the major states that no---these are our brother--I will go and talk to them to lay down their arms---he goes in with five soldiers---all are slaughtered.

Coming back---pak army at that time was playing games with the u s media---whenever any u s dignitary came into pakistan---pak army would show the arrest of an al qaeda head honcho---it became so predictable that it was embarrassing to watch.

Al qaeda is like a cancerous growth---if you didnot stop it in time---the growth will increase multifolds and that will do major damage to the system. And it did happen---all the world was telling pakistan what was coming---the only person who didnot hear it was the pakistani.

They had to face and exoperience the taste of death and destruction of their loved ones first hand---a perverse pleasure of kinds.

Pakistan army thought that they would capture OBL just like that---the problem is that the ispr were on the television all the time, telling the way the terrorists were being captured---they would talk about the technology the pak army was using to trace them---it was all in the open to show the western world that we were capable---well that is fine and good---but the al qaeda brass was also listening.

At that time, the govt could have controlled the release of sttrategic and tactical information to be broadcast by the media---but nobody cared---for them it was like a new found game---a new found toy---that he tv was---a pakistani form of CNN---let us show the world that pakistanis can do it CNN style---well they missed it---CNN doesnot intentionally release tactical and strategic information or any information that could be harmful to the u s soldiers---our media cared less.

So---look at what we have to confront today---we have india on one side of our borders---we have indian navy covering our seas---we have iran, which is unhappy with us and has given raodways to india to access afghanistan---then we are looking at troops of indian army being based in afghanistan---we have a string of indian consulates running stationed parrallel to our borders with afg---then we have a supposed indian air force base right next to afghanistan.

And that is only in the past 7 years time period----. From the most favourable to the most despised---it took us only 4 years---now who is to be blamed for that---the genarals were in power along with Ch Shujaat and his entourage---it is all like an open book---laying flat in front of us.

hmm
Al qaeda....
You are right....but the story is quite complicated...
Gen Tariq Khan makes some sense though....

Liked your posts Sir...

 

[fatman17]

MK for you!

"It is an evolutionary process. There is a lot going on in Pakistan locally, but the expatriates are not going to see the results for a while. And when they judge, they must also bear in mind the fact that Pakistanis are the most honest when it comes to history. How many countries talk openly about the skeletons in their closet? Does the American media speak out openly about what happened to the native American population? Does it speak about the fact that Japan had nearly surrendered at the end of the Second World War but President Truman ordered two atomic bomb attacks on not just Hiroshima but also Nagasaki simply to run a test? Does the British media talk about how its colonial past has affected several generations of Asians? Does it acknowledge the problems it deliberately left behind, like Kashmir? Does the Saudi media ever highlight corruption scandals of high-level government functionaries? Does it so much as mention bribes or kickbacks taken even when such reports are repeatedly the subject of international press?

The Pakistani media, on the other hand, speaks openly about not just current domestic issues but also historical ones. It acknowledges freely that Pakistan was in the wrong and, thus, Bangladesh was created. It questions the faulty policy of “strategic depth”. It condemns past military take-overs. It has yet to address substantively the issue of separation of religion and state. Yet, I have little doubt that this too will be done in due course, because it is not the Pakistani way to sweep issues under the carpet.

We are a nation that is willing to give (the expatriates) and sacrifice (the locals) but among us are also a handful of parasites. Their power is diminishing by the day, so let’s not allow a few bad apples to colour our vision of what the country is all about."

 

[All-Green]

Salaams Dear Friends

Please do not engage in such hostilities, we as a nation are at a critical time in our evolution.
It is a defining moment in our history and i am sure we shall emerge much stronger and matured due to this time spent in the furnace...

The civil war in America defined the modern America, this is a similar moment for us...a bloody moment but one which has really opened our eyes to a lot more information than we ever cared to imagine before this tragedy struck us...it is a soul searching moment for our nation and all around me i see young and old alike discussing the issues and looking internally as well.

The changes made over a decade shall take time to reverse.
In the 80s there were major changes in the constitution, curricula and media policy. These changes were bought about not just to support the Afghan Jihad but more so to legitimize the role of one individual as a head of state till his death...clearly for every good step there were bad ones as well...the Army too suffered under this leadership which was restricted in its vision...

To reverse it all it requires a lot of patience and time...Musharraf did give an unprecedented freedom to the media so i shall always be grateful to him for this step even though i do not accept his breach of constitution...as time passes by the media will mature under this freedom and present diverse and thought provoking viewpoints to the nation...
Thanks to internet and free media we have a youth which is no more as naive as 10-20 years ago, however there will always be those whose vision is clouded by hate and that stands true for all nations.

Regarding the Pakistani Nation and Army, i have to say that we have to stop generalizing both the Nation and its Army.
This same nation has shown good and bad traits in its brief history.
Whereas self motivation has been a problem, this nation can do wonders when motivated. The problem i see is that when there is a bad leadership the nation does not rise and force the leadership to change gears. This is the major weakness which i have seen which has been there both due to lack of awareness and also due to a mind your own business mentality.
This has slowly been changing as at least most people now are no more emotionally detached from the challenges that we face as a nation. Emotions can be both good and bad but the fact is that once a nation starts feeling the pain and starts questioning the wrongs of the past...it is but a sign of the awakening which is bound to follow.

There have been screw ups by the high command and good decisions as well…however I do not deny that we need to improve here and I do believe that in the last few years the Army high command has been much more professional than in the history of Pakistan and that shows there is tremendous improvement.
Due to the military operations, most generals now being promoted are actual battlefield commanders who have undertaken tough assignments…this has started the transition of our Army into a very battle ready force with ample generals in its folds who can take decisions based on bitter and sweet experiences of the conflicts past.
The joint effort of Army and Air force and the results are proving that now there is a professionalism and integration of command which was not seen before at the top.
I see many good signs regarding the military and also appreciate the visible efforts of Gen Kayani to keep his Generals away from politics.
The point I am trying to make is that now of all times the military command is sensible and professional…

The IGFC is one of the new breed of battlefield commanders of PA and one who is respected by all soldiers for being a very competent officer and highly energetic and motivated.
He has been interviewed as IGFC and is being taken out of context here.
He is not saying that capturing the poster boys of TTP is not important; he is stating that the primary mission of FC and Army is to rip apart the TTP as a military threat and to destroy its support infrastructure.
If FC and Army are given the capture of Fazlullah as a primary mission then that makes no sense whatsoever in my mind…this is no spiritual movement that killing one man would get rid of all headaches…Baitullah was more important than anybody else and he is dead…still did we stop everything at once?
No…on the contrary we still had to go into SWA!!!
These are small groups which ally themselves and then have a token figurehead who does not control all groups but is supposed to project a coherent front to the world. If you take out the figure head another will appear so while it is important to take out the figurehead it is more important to deny space to such groups and shred their fighting power to pieces so that they only have a limited capability left which the intelligence agencies are better suited to deal with.

The capture of TTP commanders who are trying to evade the authorities is the primary task of intelligence agencies and the law enforcement apparatus…the PA and FC will destroy the TTP resistance and will play the take/hold role and deny the space to the TTP.
Denial of space is the first and foremost step and all else follows…after there is space denial the TTP will find it difficult to organize and train new members…this will deplete its fighting power…the leaders will slowly fall to traitors in own ranks or intelligence agencies…it will take time and the only way to ensure that all this happens is to task the military with clearing out the hordes upon hordes of the extremists and holding the territory whilst enabling the agencies to carry out intelligence sweeps and tighten the noose….

The complications of post Afghan Jihad era are not simple military puzzles but required a comprehensive broad spectrum solution...the Legislators, the military and the judiciary needed to cooperate and jointly come up with the solution.

Sadly the politicians too indulged in sheer nonsense during the 90s and never did restructure the interface of these key institutes to harness the true potential...a national security council was the need of the hour but nobody thought about it and the one Army Chief who mentioned it as a good idea was immediately sacked for it by the good old Nawaz Sharif.

The entire nation was against the US offensive in Afghanistan instead of negotiating further with Taliban, so a decision to seal the border with Afghanistan would have been opposed by most Pakistanis who would have seen this is as condemning hundreds of thousands of innocents to death since the Northern Alliance is anti Pashtun and would have no qualms about slaughtering innocents in its vengeance.
There was a severe agitation in our tribal areas and such a step could have immediately backfired as well...
Any action was not without its costs since in all scenarios we had to pay the price for our past mistakes...in hindsight we see it as a bad step but lets be honest here...most of our nation had not seen the true face of these extremists and thought that they were all noble warriors who would never turn on their fellow Muslims...some still adhere to this point of view but the last five years have changed the point of view of majority who are now saying no to such extremism and want a no tolerance policy for such ideas.
It has taken a lot of tears and blood for this nation to wake up and see the threat facing us...there was no propaganda powerful enough to do this...the ISI is very capable but they could not erase the past in one stroke of genius, there is no one day recovery from such complicated matters...

Regarding the Army role...i shall be very honest here and speak from personal example…please do not take it as an attempt to glorify my family…we are ordinary Pakistanis and that is what I am trying to say…we ordinary Pakistanis are not as hopeless as we seem to think…we have enough values amongst many people to stage a comeback and comeback we shall!!!
There are corrupt people everywhere in the world and all spheres of life.
There is corruption in Pakistan and so Army is no exception but unlike many government departments where corruption is common from ordinary clerk to highest office…the corruption is limited in Army and there are checks and balances in place which serve as deterrence for most.
I principally disagree with the Coup commanders like Zia and Musharraf in the validity and necessity of their actions...the Army has to remain true to the constitution and stand down even if it is painful to watch the politicians make a mess of things...if anything we have learnt than even if the intent is good the Army Chief actually ruins the Army by taking such a step.
In Zia era and Musharraf era there was a frustration in the ranks though the Army does not reflect such sentiments by virtue of its discipline.
There were those who resigned on principles like Sir fatman17 and those like my father who remained in Uniform but did not show any moral flexibility and did their duty as soldiers not as politicians.
There were few officers (rotten eggs) on martial law duty that even used to shop in uniform in Zia era to facilitate healthy bargaining...on the other hand there were those like my father who actually compromised their career by being strictly principled when assigned the same martial law duty which some sought as a golden egg laying goose.
The life of a Pakistani Soldier is tough as it should be…but then please give them the respect they deserve and not taunts about plots and houses…there is a price for everything and most soldiers earn their benefits with much more cost than we care to recognize.
My father has countless complications to show for his decades of service in the mountain areas and the tribal belts.
Heart, Lungs, blood...all things have been afflicted...yes he signed up for it himself and was not forced to face hardship...but he signed up for an honorable and a stable career and he got it and gave all he had to pursue it...it is not an easy career and hardship and death looms around every corner once you join the military...still in Army an honest man can serve with honor and most do that.
My father lost his best friends in the wars...he could not be there when his father passed away and got the news after a whole month since he was on a particularly tough assignment in the Northern areas...he was absent on most family events, though he was the bread earner...he spent a hard life before marriage and even after that it was not a very easy career.
We changed station 3 times in a year when i was in fourth grade...i changed from English medium school to Punjabi medium school and vice versa...it was really tough for us as a family but we never complained or thought ill of the Army and certainly never of Pakistan!
For all his service he has obtained one flat in which we reside and for which there were regular pay deductions in his military service...he is always proud of this achievement and what military gave him.
He is content and really appreciates what was given to him for 3 decades of hard service which took in a university level athlete/gymnast, debater and a position holder in English language and turned out a retired major who struggled from 9 to 7 in a civilian job despite having multiple complications of heart, lungs and blood.
Still he gave an excellent account of himself and managed to earn enough to educate his children even if our life was simple...we are all grateful to Allah, Pakistan and its Army for giving us a house even if we did pay some cost for it and it was not free as most civilians think it to be...

My father may not have attained a high rank but to me he is the average soldier of Pakistan's Army and I am proud of him as I am of all soldiers who are Pakistanis and take honor and pride in facing hardship for their country and its people...
These same soldiers do not stand idle even in peace times, they helped build the silk route and have always been there in times of need be it flood or a quake, they repaired the Sukkur barrage for free when the foreign firms were going to charge millions upon millions of dollars...they are Pakistanis and their good showing is reflective of the qualities we as a nation posses but do not harness readily.
The nation has never been let down by the ranks and the Unit commanders ever in its history and these are the people who are the bulk of our military.
It is a fact that our soldiers and officers have always stood firm even in face of overwhelming odds when asked to do so...they have given their lives when asked to do so and they have performed well in many actions so as to merit the comment worldwide that they are a professional army and well trained.
From an operational point of view the Pakistan Military is professional and that is because of its rank and file and the discipline within and the spirit to give all when asked.

On the other hand I am a civilian and so feel proud when I follow the law to the letter and pay my taxes and my bills honestly and do all within my power to make a difference, that is my battlefield and all I do right is my glory and any compromises I make is a shameful thing. I do not feel offended by the strict tone of Military men and know that they are trained for War and have to be tough since they give their life without hesitation when the time comes.
However one has to realize that these soldiers come from normal Pakistani families and reflect the quiet strength we possess as a nation but one which has been dormant in the past.
I do not see the civilians as useless sheep, I see great civilians like Edhi who work tirelessly for this nation and do manage to get so much financial assistance from all segments of the society without any vested interest…there are many great people in this land still and the awakening is around the corner…to lose hope when we have such good examples is perhaps the greatest weakness of ours in which we suffer most…let us not abandon hope while there is hell of a fight left in us…
Criticism is good but obsession with it to the point that we lose hope is wrong. We are certainly learning from our mistakes and I am sure of the glory that this nation is destined to achieve because even amidst chaos I see many signs that prove our potential.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

MK for you!

"It is an evolutionary process. There is a lot going on in Pakistan locally, but the expatriates are not going to see the results for a while. And when they judge, they must also bear in mind the fact that Pakistanis are the most honest when it comes to history. How many countries talk openly about the skeletons in their closet? Does the American media speak out openly about what happened to the native American population? Does it speak about the fact that Japan had nearly surrendered at the end of the Second World War but President Truman ordered two atomic bomb attacks on not just Hiroshima but also Nagasaki simply to run a test? Does the British media talk about how its colonial past has affected several generations of Asians? Does it acknowledge the problems it deliberately left behind, like Kashmir? Does the Saudi media ever highlight corruption scandals of high-level government functionaries? Does it so much as mention bribes or kickbacks taken even when such reports are repeatedly the subject of international press?

The Pakistani media, on the other hand, speaks openly about not just current domestic issues but also historical ones. It acknowledges freely that Pakistan was in the wrong and, thus, Bangladesh was created. It questions the faulty policy of “strategic depth”. It condemns past military take-overs. It has yet to address substantively the issue of separation of religion and state. Yet, I have little doubt that this too will be done in due course, because it is not the Pakistani way to sweep issues under the carpet.

We are a nation that is willing to give (the expatriates) and sacrifice (the locals) but among us are also a handful of parasites. Their power is diminishing by the day, so let’s not allow a few bad apples to colour our vision of what the country is all about."

That excellent and apt excerpt posted by FM (for those who wish to read more of it) was taken from:

Expats vs locals

I absolutely agree with the gist of it - Pakistanis and the Pakistani media have always been willing to engage in introspection and acknowledge past faults, openly and in the mainstream, far more than what I have observed in other places.

 

[iPhone]

^ yeah that's basically it. Fatman and mr. AllGreen have summed up the self critcism subject quiet well, too, though mr.green I confess I skimmed through your post, it was too long but the basic idea was the same . I said it before in my reply that for every knucklehead in Pakistan there are numerous descent personalties and if mr. MK and others wish to continue harping about the knuckleheads and ignoring the descent ones then I wish to argue no more. Have a good day everone.

 

[All-Green]

^ yeah that's basically it. Fatman and mr. AllGreen have summed up the self critcism subject quiet well, too, though mr.green I confess I skimmed through your post, it was too long but the basic idea was the same . I said it before in my reply that for every knucklehead in Pakistan there are numerous descent personalties and if mr. MK and others wish to continue harping about the knuckleheads and ignoring the descent ones then I wish to argue no more. Have a good day everone.

Yeah sorry about the long post, i was about to delete half of it but then posted it anyways since it was from the heart...anyways i sympathize with those who attempted to read it...

MK is a patriot and i have utmost respect for him.
His criticism is not without reason.
However my point is that our strategy cannot be made in isolation with public sentiments (remember 71?) and changing sentiments and perceptions takes time and evidently a lot of blood...but the destiny of great nations are not shaped by words alone and these sacrifices though costly and difficult to bear were not entirely avoidable and shall be the very catalyst that makes this nation rise...

We should look at the positive signs in the Military and the Judiciary...the two most important pillars of the state which can work together to create a much better environment...i feel this is a fresh breeze and will sweep away many problems in due time...Inshallah...

 

[sonicboom]

As far as Pakistani people are concerned, I care less for them.

and you consider yourself a pakistani !!!

With due respect, yes Sir. It’s not conditional to care about Pakistanis in order to be a Pakistani. I am a very proud Pakistani and will always be a Pakistani. I care about my homeland and not for those who have destroyed it or trying to destroy it by looting and plundering it. I wish if I could have done more for my homeland but guess what to become a lecturer just on ad hoc basis; the bribe price was 100,000 rupees in today’s value. Neither my dad (a retiree from army, who did not have the luxury of getting 3 or 4 free plots in defense housing colonies as compared to some of others who continue to enjoy this luxury without going to any war or firing a single bullet) had that kind of money nor would he have paid the bribe in order for me to get that job. I thought the bribe was ‘haram’ in Islam and Pakistan was supposed to be an Islamic country and 99% of the Pakistanis were practicing Muslims.

You know, I did not have to pay bribe or get ‘safarish’ to come to USA, or to get education in USA or to find a job in USA. As a matter of fact, I get respected and treated lot better here in USA than by my own country men when I come to visit Pakistan where I get hounded from the time I land to the time I leave. What a shame? And if you or few others think that I am getting mad or complaining too much, then there are reasons. I will not hesitate to say truth and I am entitled to that in this public forum and I am not here to cater the needs of others. Just remember truth is always bitter.

And lastly, (I am guessing from the various posts that you are in the military) I appreciate you and others for serving the country.

Thank you

 

[sonicboom]

Fatman17,

Thankyou for putting something in your own words except for paste and post

at your service sir! 1148 and counting!

It was uncalled-for especially from someone of your status and above that being a chairman of the think tank.

But anyway, thank you and keep on counting.

By cutting and pasting and sharing information with forum members is not a crime. Everyone is doing it including you in case you have not noticed. Not all of us have time to read stories and news scattered all over the places and hence sharing them with the forum members makes it easy and one stop reading.

I just checked my statistics as follows:

Total posts: 247
Threads opened = 84
Posts= 163

I did check your statistics too and you were guilty of 500 times for cutting and pasting.

I honestly think that most members do appreciate for having the information readily available to them as is visible by Thank awards.

I am surprised to see that while you are complaining abut me cutting and pasting, you at the same time quoted for MK (post #81) by cutting and pasting from one of my threads, (http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/40346-expats-vs-locals.html), indicating that you did like it. So cut and paste does work and thank you for that.

Following is another quote of you in regards to my post ‘Driving the TTP out’:

Post #2
nice article - very objective and balanced!

SB - thanks for sharing!


Thank you

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I love it the way this discussion has turned---there is so much touch and feel and emotion to it.



Anyway, there is a lot of talk about pak being open and it talks about itself like no one else---so here is an interesting article that I found in 2006---enjoy the read






Pakistan ’s Oral Society
By M. Shahid Alam
Boston , MA

(Author’s note: This essay was written in 1990, but there is little I would change if I had to rewrite it today)

I first became aware of differences between ‘oral’ and ‘literate’ societies when I returned to Pakistan in 1979, after some five years in the United States and Canada , to take up a research position at the University of Karachi .

During my first few weeks at the University, and in meetings with friends and relatives, I was at first quite charmed by their eagerness to engage in what appeared to be serious discussions on politics and religion. All conversations eventually turned to the momentous issues of the day in Pakistan and around the world. To my relief, they evinced a curiosity about the world which I had missed during my years in the United States and Canada .

But these impressions did not last very long. Soon the discussions I heard began to stale. They conveyed less and less information and even fewer fresh ideas. There was little evidence that my interlocutors were reading anything beyond newspapers. After a while, it appeared that everyone was talking about the same things, saying more or less the same things. An irritating monotony crept into the questions asked and the solutions proffered. More discouraging, the discussions did not lead up to anything. No plans on which work might begin here and now.

It was as if the problems of the world demanded endless vocalization. We had to talk about them obsessively. It was as if everyone had to describe his or her encounter with this or that problem, as a way of coming to terms with, making his or her accommodation with what could only be endured but not overcome. It was as if everyone was engaged in a collective ritual, participating in some magic act, exorcising their problems, making them vanish even as they talked about them. This train of thought led me to conclude that these endless conversations were the incantations of an oral society. The art of mending the world by talking about it.

All this is so different from what I have seen of literate societies. The important difference between oral and literate societies does not consist in the proportion of those who can read and write. It centers on the attitude of those who can read and write to the written word, and on the relationship of the written word to society. A literate society uses the written word to understand and change the world. Talk is ephemeral, and more often than not shallow. The written word gives it power and permanence. The ability to reach out to minds across space and time. The ability to change it across space and time.

Oral and literate societies are manifestations of nearly opposite states of mind. In one the word is cultivated as incantation, a few simple texts rehearsed endlessly to come to peace with a world one cannot change, the better to endure its ‘whips and scorn.’ It represents a social abnegation, a refusal to belong to the world, to take responsibility for it. It reflects a defeated will that feels no joy in engaging, acting upon or changing the world for the better.

It is the opposite in a literate society. Here the world challenges the will to action. Here the understanding engages the world in order to change it. Those who labor with the pen are exercising their will to change it. Scriptures, treatises, tracts, manifestoes, essays: in all its incarnations, the word is a declaration of intent to change the world. Here the will to change society first manifests itself in the will to write about it.

Oral societies have no use for books. They do not read, collect, lend, borrow, hand down, treasure books. Overwhelmingly, educated Pakistanis experience their final and definitive encounter with books when they appear for their last college examinations. The only books you are likely to find in their homes are what their children study at school. There are very few bookstores that sell anything other than textbooks and news or fashion magazines. There are even fewer libraries, whether maintained at public expense or operated for profit. Book clubs are unheard of.

There are fewer new books published in Pakistan today than in eighteenth century Japan . Most are collections of love poetry or short stories. There are few serious novels. Books on history, sociology, politics or economics are almost unknown. Even the political parties have little use for the written word. They communicate their programs through speeches, slogans and jingles. Political pamphleteering is rare. The official biography of Pakistan 's founding father was written by Hector Bolitho, an Englishman. More recently, Benazir Bhutto commissioned Stanley Wolpert, an American scholar, to write the biography of her father and Pakistan ’s slain populist leader.

All this is oddly paradoxical for a society that was conceived more than any other around a book. More than Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism, Islam is a religion of the Book. The central miracles of Christianity are the death and resurrection of Christ. The essence of Judaism is the history of a unique people, whose seminal events are recreated every year in a multitude of rituals. And Hinduism has no need for the written word. It is defined by the social order, rituals and etiquettes appropriate to every caste. In Islam alone God talks to mankind through the written word. And yet that Book and others are peripheral to Pakistan 's society.

A curious reversal brought about during the past two hundred years of Western domination over Islamic lands – converting Islam’s long and rich tradition of literacy to the present-day fossil of an oral society.

(M. Shahid Alam is professor of economics at a university in Boston , and author of Challenging the New Orientalism: Dissenting Essays on America ’s ‘War Against Islam’ - IPI Publications: 2006 forthcoming. He may be reached at alqalam02760@yahoo.com. © M. Shahid Alam)

 

[MastanKhan]

All green,

There are good people in pakistan----there is no society in the world that exists peacefully where there are no good people in majority who make an active participation in the welbeing of the community.

There are good officers in the millitary---there are some great officers in the millitary, but then there are some real scoundrels as well.

I would bet you anything that there were a few gen staff officers who wanted to take out al qaeda at their escape route on the other side of tora bora---they wanted to neutralize the menace once for all in a lightening strike----they wanted to do it so fast that the results would not even have registered on the populace before the corpses were buried. And off course they got over ruled by the less competent bosses.

The gist of all my discussion and argument is that some people higher up---they knew what they had to do, but still took the gamble of playing the arrest of the al qaeda card---because there was so much money to be made---5000 dollars for each operative---higher amounts of money for important players. It became a game of cash for renegades---where some of the gen staff got invovled in selling innocent victims for higher sums of money. All it came down to was milking of the u s----. Their thinking was that we will keep on catching them little by little and keep on making the money---according to them al qaeda had no place to hide in pakistan---OBL had nowhere to hide---.

None of them ever thought that al qaaeda would take seed in the pak populace so strong or that ttp would pop out of nowhere---they were busy playing their games and enjoying their look good moments on the TV and the world media forum.

The most major turning point for any disbelievers came, when some chinese engineers were kidnapped and the kidnappers stated that they wanted to create bad relations between china and pakistan---that was the watershed moment in war against terror---that was the moment that the nation should have realized that there was serious trouble brewing---but no---the nation went on with its life like there was nothing wrong---amazing isn't it---that they abduct and kill your only reliable ally and people don't think that there is a wakeup call in that message.

For those who hero worship---for them it is impossible to acknowledge the mistakes of their loved ones let alone hold them accountable.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

To help to sum up some stuff...

If we were a great nation >>> we would be powerful like U.S. or hard working like Chinese

We cannot cannot cannot say that Pakistanis are very intellectual but their country is suffering...Does not make sense whatsoever...

We are getting what we can offer to our country…
Yes…U.S./Europe interfered in our country but “WE” never stood up after 1947…We always blamed politicians/army for everything…It is not enough…we have to be practical…