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Gen Tariq Khan, IG FC: We had to clear Afghan border village because NATO was MIA

I would bet you anything that there were a few gen staff officers who wanted to take out al qaeda at their escape route on the other side of tora bora---they wanted to neutralize the menace once for all in a lightening strike----they wanted to do it so fast that the results would not even have registered on the populace before the corpses were buried. And off course they got over ruled by the less competent bosses.

I'm sorry, but Musharraf included, many people have argued that the Americans had zero coordination with the Pakistani military when it came to their operations.

Was the Pakistan military brass supposed to get a message from the heavens that OBL and the AQ leadership was being hunted in this part of the border and would escape because the Yanks refused to deploy any more than a few hundred soldiers?

There are legitimate issues for criticizm, but this particular line seems flawed, unless it can be conclusively shown that the US did ask the Pak MIl to specifically deploy forces in this stretch prior to their operations.
 
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It was uncalled-for especially from someone of your status and above that being a chairman of the think tank.

But anyway, thank you and keep on counting.

By cutting and pasting and sharing information with forum members is not a crime. Everyone is doing it including you in case you have not noticed. Not all of us have time to read stories and news scattered all over the places and hence sharing them with the forum members makes it easy and one stop reading.

I just checked my statistics as follows:

Total posts: 247
Threads opened = 84
Posts= 163

I did check your statistics too and you were guilty of 500 times for cutting and pasting.

I honestly think that most members do appreciate for having the information readily available to them as is visible by Thank awards.

I am surprised to see that while you are complaining abut me cutting and pasting, you at the same time quoted for MK (post #81) by cutting and pasting from one of my threads, (http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/40346-expats-vs-locals.html), indicating that you did like it. So cut and paste does work and thank you for that.

Following is another quote of you in regards to my post ‘Driving the TTP out’:

Post #2
nice article - very objective and balanced!

SB - thanks for sharing!


Thank you

the comment was not for you! - it was for mastan khan!
any thanks for your comments!
 
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I'm sorry, but Musharraf included, many people have argued that the Americans had zero coordination with the Pakistani military when it came to their operations.

Was the Pakistan military brass supposed to get a message from the heavens that OBL and the AQ leadership was being hunted in this part of the border and would escape because the Yanks refused to deploy any more than a few hundred soldiers?

There are legitimate issues for criticizm, but this particular line seems flawed, unless it can be conclusively shown that the US did ask the Pak MIl to specifically deploy forces in this stretch prior to their operations.

Agno,

You are getting mad---it is unlike you---. Yessir---the message was coming from heavens---otherwise known as the satellite tv---live on cnn---foxnews and msnbc---it was all live---the newsmen talking and showing livwe feed---din't you see that on tv, or were you too young to understand what was happening at that time.

Haven't you read the statements and the interview of the american spec forces team leader who stated that there were more cameramen at tora bora than american soldiers. I saw myself the live video feed from the live tv reports at the base of tora bora.

Some of the pak generals had the time to arrest some of the people and sell them to the cia for 5000 dollars apiece---and they didnot have the time to watch the live feed---sell it to someone else my little brother---you can make this sale to pakistanis living in pakistan who tow the line with a blind faith.

The pak army made arrest of some of the al qaeda operative on the other side of tora bora----that is where the incidence of al qaeda operatives over powering the FC gurads took place---where the officer incharge didnot want to bind the hands and feet of the captured " muslim brothers " who then executed 10---12 FC men---this was on jang and geo news for many days.

Where did you come with this phrase that pak generals didnot know about it---or the connection with heavens---.

Musharraf is full of excuses---he didnot need any co-ordination with the americans----he could have easily co-ordinated the troop movements in accordance with what was shown on live TV---you don't need a rocket scientist to do something like that.

It was all visible to one and any---where the americans were moving and what the al qaeda and taliban were doing---americans had been playing this open to public war---.

Some older members on this board must remember the live feed that was on on during the afghan war---were you old enough to remeber all that was happening---no pun intended---because it did happen---sometimes kids don't understand or remember those kind of violent things. They think it is some kind of movie.
 
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the comment was not for you! - it was for mastan khan!
any thanks for your comments!



Hi fatman,


You got to hit me a little bit harder---sometimes I don't understand subtleties and innuendos---it is like the hearing thing---as you get older---the others have to speak up louder---.
 
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Agno,

You are getting mad---it is unlike you---. Yessir---the message was coming from heavens---otherwise known as the satellite tv---live on cnn---foxnews and msnbc---it was all live---the newsmen talking and showing livwe feed---din't you see that on tv, or were you too young to understand what was happening at that time.

Haven't you read the statements and the interview of the american spec forces team leader who stated that there were more cameramen at tora bora than american soldiers. I saw myself the live video feed from the live tv reports at the base of tora bora.

Some of the pak generals had the time to arrest some of the people and sell them to the cia for 5000 dollars apiece---and they didnot have the time to watch the live feed---sell it to someone else my little brother---you can make this sale to pakistanis living in pakistan who tow the line with a blind faith.

The pak army made arrest of some of the al qaeda operative on the other side of tora bora----that is where the incidence of al qaeda operatives over powering the FC gurads took place---where the officer incharge didnot want to bind the hands and feet of the captured " muslim brothers " who then executed 10---12 FC men---this was on jang and geo news for many days.

Where did you come with this phrase that pak generals didnot know about it---or the connection with heavens---.

Musharraf is full of excuses---he didnot need any co-ordination with the americans----he could have easily co-ordinated the troop movements in accordance with what was shown on live TV---you don't need a rocket scientist to do something like that.

It was all visible to one and any---where the americans were moving and what the al qaeda and taliban were doing---americans had been playing this open to public war---.

Some older members on this board must remember the live feed that was on on during the afghan war---were you old enough to remeber all that was happening---no pun intended---because it did happen---sometimes kids don't understand or remember those kind of violent things. They think it is some kind of movie.
I don't remember seeing active operations in pursuit of AQ live on TV.

And I think it is utterly foolish to deploy thousands of soldiers in mountainous terrain on the basis of a television show. If the objective was that important, the US should have coordinated with Pakistan better and earlier. Since US soldiers were invovled and US citizens were covering this 'live', why did the US not block of the escape routes by using their massive rotary and winged assets to drop soldiers on the AQ line of retreat?

I don't blame Musharraf for this - the argument that a military act on the basis of a television broadcast is, with all due respect, utterly absurd.
 
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To help to sum up some stuff...

If we were a great nation >>> we would be powerful like U.S. or hard working like Chinese

We cannot cannot cannot say that Pakistanis are very intellectual but their country is suffering...Does not make sense whatsoever...

We are getting what we can offer to our country…
Yes…U.S./Europe interfered in our country but “WE” never stood up after 1947…We always blamed politicians/army for everything…It is not enough…we have to be practical…


:pakistan:

What is your comment about a common understanding all over the world that every country has army but our army has got country.

In last 60 years politians and army dictators are ruling our country not the poor majority.We need to transfer power and decision making from army and politicians to general public for stability and development through democratic system .Ultimately shariah should be our objective.
 
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Hi fatman,


You got to hit me a little bit harder---sometimes I don't understand subtleties and innuendos---it is like the hearing thing---as you get older---the others have to speak up louder---.

MK---i am not out to hit anyone!
 
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To help to sum up some stuff...

If we were a great nation >>> we would be powerful like U.S. or hard working like Chinese

We cannot cannot cannot say that Pakistanis are very intellectual but their country is suffering...Does not make sense whatsoever...

We are getting what we can offer to our country…
Yes…U.S./Europe interfered in our country but “WE” never stood up after 1947…We always blamed politicians/army for everything…It is not enough…we have to be practical…


:pakistan:

We have all the potential but greatness is not achieved overnight...in the life of a nation even a century is a relatively short time...

Great nations like England, France, Japan, Germany etc. suffered tremendous humiliations and defeats despite their fierce national pride and being great powers of the time...
What to say of China which was one of the most ancient civilizations but literally hit rock bottom in the 20th Century before its current status as a rising dragon...

I suggest a reading of World War 2 era France and the likes of the Ruling French Vichy Regime which was headed by one of the most heroic of French Generals of WW1 the great Marshal Petain...this man and his government collaborated with the Germans who had earlier attacked and devastated their own France...unthinkable but even things like this can also happen in the best of nations and with the best of patriots...some plans work well, others fail miserably...

We have certainly not achieved greatness overall but we do have the potential and that is what we must bank on when planning decades ahead...even then there are a lot of unknowns which make even great nations suffer tremendous reverses and take them to the very brink...

To me greatness cannot simply be measured by results alone but is also associated with the character of a nation when faced with tremendous odds and its ability to pick itself up and be ready for another round...

The will of a nation defines its greatness and the will of a nation is not forged overnight but takes time to develop and has to withstand many tests and trials...

In brief, if we stick it out, defeat the terrorists, force the government to perform as per our wishes and learn from our mistakes...we shall become a nation on its way to certain greatness.

Yes we have to be practical about everything so we must remember that it is a long haul and no short cuts will do us any good to reverse our fortunes overnight...it is a slow march but we have to ensure that it is steady and in the direction we desire...that is where the average Pakistani has to play its part in fighting for Pakistan.
Be it politics, discussions, blogs, forums, media...it is our job to project a positive attitude and highlight what needs to be done and why it has to be done...too long were the extremists ignored by the nation as a whole which thought that these were the Mujahideen we and the whole free world supported, anyone who associates these thugs with the Mujahideen should remember that the Jihad died the day these extremists turned their guns on Pakistan...not because we are gods chosen people but because Jihad was for liberation of the suppressed and clearly the attack on Pakistan is not for any liberation but is treachery to the very nation who supported the Mujahideen through thick and thin in the name of freedom...

Thankfully the blind trust for anyone using the name of Mujahideen is no more the case across the majority of the populace...the support for extremists is dying down since their true face has been exposed...Public perception is already changing regarding the Operations against the extremists...change is already occurring but it takes time and is a painful process.
 
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One other question - when was this Tora Bora episode taking place exactly?

Did it coincide with the parliament attacks and the subsequent Op. Parakram? If so, that might explain why the Pak Mil presence along the Afghan-Pak border was not as large as it could have been.
 
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What is your comment about a common understanding all over the world that every country has army but out army has got country.

In last 60 years politians and army dictators are ruling our country not the poor majority.We need to transfer power and decision making from army and politicians to general public for stability and development through democratic system .Ultimately shariah should be our objective.

Our objective should be the rule of law as per the unanimously agreed constitution of Pakistan which does not contradict Shariah.
So restoration of the original constitution is the first step in the right direction...

The Shariah which we seek and the Shariah which the likes of Taliban are projecting and trying to implement are not the same so when we talk of Shariah and bypass the constitution, that is when all sorts of goons are given a license to openly fan anti Pakistan sentiments.

Pakistani constitution is Islamic and has to be given a chance in all positive scenarios...
We have to keep our feet on the ground and work on the tangible items and i am sure 99% Pakistanis would get what they dream of...Inshallah
 
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Our objective should be the rule of law as per the unanimously agreed constitution of Pakistan which does not contradict Shariah.
So restoration of the original constitution is the first step in the right direction...

The Shariah which we seek and the Shariah which the likes of Taliban are projecting and trying to implement are not the same so when we talk of Shariah and bypass the constitution, that is when all sorts of goons are given a license to openly fan anti Pakistan sentiments.

Pakistani constitution is Islamic and has to be given a chance in all positive scenarios...
We have to keep our feet on the ground and work on the tangible items and i am sure 99% Pakistanis would get what they dream of...Inshallah

No doubt our constitution is islamic but question is why shariah basic fundamental law could not implemented in last sixty years.

Still intrest based economy,taxation,non islamic punishments are prevailing and power and authority are in hands of president ,parliment is ineffective.

Elected representative have only excess to national wealth, which are involved in corruption and law is protecting them through NRO.:D
 
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One other question - when was this Tora Bora episode taking place exactly?

Did it coincide with the parliament attacks and the subsequent Op. Parakram? If so, that might explain why the Pak Mil presence along the Afghan-Pak border was not as large as it could have been.

The Pakistan India standoff occurred in December 2001 as well...our entire Army was facing a most likely war on the eastern front and had to mobilize a huge force in the same month...

The operation in Tora Bora was launched in December 2001 and the Al Qaeda conveyed its intention to surrender to the local anti Taliban commander, the US and UK forces were present and the area was practically under siege...however this intention to surrender was to buy time and OBL and some others escaped.
The huge failure of the allies to capture the very terrorist which was a known threat and the primary objective of the war should puzzle all the experts who instead claim that Pakistan deliberately let the Al Qaeda into its country...please explain that how the most modern militaries in the world with all sorts of radio, optical and thermal surveillance instruments on ground, air and in space failed to capture Bin Laden despite surrounding the Al Qaeda?
Was it because of the terrain?
If it was the terrain which helped Osama then what of Pakistan Army which does not have similar technology available and also has the same terrain to contend with?
Can PA stop all the routes in such terrain so as to enable just a few highly trained persons being captured?
This is the toughest terrain on earth and can even hide the movement of a 100 trained fighters unless there is hi tech surveillance via air and satellite 24/7 and prior intelligence...which Pakistan did not have at its disposal...
Also all this intelligence and operational detail was revealed later by the assets on ground after the failure had occurred...
Do you think the US was sharing real time intel with us on Osama?
Seeing the mutual mistrust which still prevails, i am 100% sure they did not share this intel with Pakistan due to their own reservations and it was not very easy for Pakistan to keep track of Osama especially since our link was with the Pashtuns who were at the time running for their lives and had common cause with all those against the US invasion...

Many later revealed that OBL was indeed present in Tora Bora...
The CIA officer Gary Berntsen led the CIA team in Afghanistan which was to hunt Osama bin Laden and he claims in his book Jawbreaker that his team had pinpointed the location of Osama in Tora Bora.
He claims that OBL could have been captured if he had been given the troops requested by him of USCENTCOM.
Similar views have been expressed by other CIA and SAS operatives as well...

The Al Qaeda is a shadow organization and does not present a coherent front...Army could not stop Al Qaeda infiltration in twos and threes across such a porous border even if we had sent all the Army there...certainly no chance without intelligence sharing and hi tech surveillance...

The PA was severely restricted on many counts and could not seal the border for both political and humanitarian reasons.
Few complications are listed below...
1) Army Chief was head of state and was thinking politically...
2) Whole nation was against the US invasion.
3) Hundreds of Thousands of tribals were crossing from Afghanistan to Pakistan to escape the war.
4) Pakistan and India suffered a diplomatic meltdown and mobilized for war.
5)The food and necessities of life had to go from Pakistan to Afghanistan and sealing border would have caused another crisis.
6) OBL and Al Qaeda hierarchy was in Tora Bora surrounded by the Allies and had shown willingness to surrender.
7) No intelligence sharing by Allies with Pakistan on the hunt of Osama bin Laden.
8) Lack of hi tech round the clock surveillance to focus on small groups moving from Pakistan to Afghanistan.

All this factored into the analysis, it was not simply a bid to let AQ enter Pakistan deliberately and then mint money...the fact that we captured many AQ operatives is a success of our intelligence agencies and the special operation teams... this capability of our agencies was known to our planners who would have factored this into their calculation and banked on the intelligence sweep approach rather than to seal the borders and suffer severe backlash from all around...
Even Pakistan letting US use its airspace was seen in a very negative light by the nation... the emotions of the nation and the situation in Afghanistan suggested caution or risk a massive civil unrest...and when India mobilized for war...the Army had nothing better to come up with...

Now in hindsight it irks us that OBL escaped but it was not a simple matter of letting him escape or not...it was not entirely our choice to make...the Allies launched a war to capture him and who could have thought that he would escape from their clutches?
Who could have dared to further anger the nation and create unrest in the tribal areas on the 1% chance that OBL will escape the Allies and come to Pakistan....certainly it could never have been the open claim of GOP in front of its people that it will seal the border and actively help Allies in eliminating the former Mujahideen, our nation was not ready for such a complete U-Turn and keeping in mind the very low probability of OBL's escape the decision was not taken to seal the border completely since even this extreme action would have not guaranteed us Osama's capture in case he evaded the allies...
When India mobilized for war the PA was no more in a position to seal the border even when it was revealed that OBL has evaded the allies in Tora Bora...the best it could do therefore was intelligence sweeps and targeted attacks on Al Qaeda with the help of locals which was going on rather well till the Lal Masjid fiasco was used by Al Qaeda to instigate an attack on Pakistan through TTP and put us on the back foot.

However now the things are looking up and i think both the nation and the military has learned what to expect of the extremists and how they can be dealt with... a valuable lesson but very costly...
Was it avoidable?
Certainly not entirely as far as i think...even if OBL did not crossover to Pakistan the extremists had to fight for space and this is what they did...

Musharraf's main fault is not the failure to capture Osama.
His main fault is not dealing with TTP before it grew out of hand and created a power vacuum in FATA.
The Tribal Leadership was being eliminated and we were focusing more on Al Qaeda...that is what was wrong...we were focused on the foreign elements and TTP was eliminating the very locals who were going to help fight the foreign elements for many reasons...
 
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So our country is in bad shape.None of us here is Pakistani elite and then SB you are saying Pakistani common people like myself should get allah ka azab.How will that help us..that's like destroying Pakistan's property because someone made bad c artoons in Denmark.?I really can't understand your rants i guess thats because i dont have my head up my ***.You're the same person who just to score a few points with xeric said all army officers are bastards for which you were banned.(I know you're gonna play the Military card again so let me tell you before you do so that i don't have any relative in Armed Forces).What exactly are you ranting about ?You hate the Pakistanis or what?What I don't understand is what exactly is the point of these posts.I mean its fine if you say that General Musharraf made huge mess but to say all army officers are responsible for it is just pure rant.All i see in your posts are just rants.There is nothing wrong with criticizing but you dont criticize you just post rants.Look at MastanKhan posts.A person can debate with him but with the likes of you..doubtful.What is your stance ? Can you please summarize in a single paragraph the reason for creation of this thread along with your stance on whatever issue you're ranting about ?What exactly are you advocating ?
 
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One other question - when was this Tora Bora episode taking place exactly?

Did it coincide with the parliament attacks and the subsequent Op. Parakram? If so, that might explain why the Pak Mil presence along the Afghan-Pak border was not as large as it could have been.

Agno,

You are correct----india was in 'DIRE STRAITS' at that time----even though it had offered all its facilities to the u s to conduct its war through---the u s had refused them and and took the right option of going through pakistan.

It saw the balance of power shifting towards pakistan---and india after all it had done to establish its superiority, would not want to let go of it---so came about the parliament attacks---and then the troop movement.

If the pak millitary says that they don't know, they are being less than truthful---the writing was on the wall---india had to do something to keep pakistan off balance and divert its attention---but that had nothing to do with not pursuing al qaeda---.

The FC was still in force in the mountain areas---the al qaeda renegades coming down were ill-prepared to fight the constabulary---pak millitary made another blunder---they took their eyes from their SIX intentionally and diverted all their attention towards the indian border---pak wanted to tell the world that because of the indian army's movement, they could not apprehend the culprits running in from afg---they didnot have the resource---that was a totally 'thick headed ' approach to the issue at hand---.

Yes we had the resource, the ability and capability---it were just the usual daily shenanigans that the generals were acting upon---.

Why isn't the so called invasion of the indian army used by pak, when the americans state that the paks let OBL get away---why isn't this issue brought up every time that it was due to indian ready to attack situation that diverted the paks resources---when was the last time this reasoning was given at any press conf----rarely ever---I haven't heard it for many a years---know why---because it is not correct---that is why they don't use it---pak millitary had enough resources to do it---they took a gamble and failed one more time in world media.

Now here is india---a new lover that america has---and where do we stand---snubbed and stuffed---with divorce papers sent through e-messaging.

We had to be prepared for the unpredictable from the very onset---we have been caught with our pants down on every single occassion---even though we have wiggled our way through many a problems, our progress takes a step back every single time and keeps us bogged down in the muck.

That is what all this issue is about.
 
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We have all the potential but greatness is not achieved overnight...in the life of a nation even a century is a relatively short time...

Great nations like England, France, Japan, Germany etc. suffered tremendous humiliations and defeats despite their fierce national pride and being great powers of the time...
What to say of China which was one of the most ancient civilizations but literally hit rock bottom in the 20th Century before its current status as a rising dragon...

I suggest a reading of World War 2 era France and the likes of the Ruling French Vichy Regime which was headed by one of the most heroic of French Generals of WW1 the great Marshal Petain...this man and his government collaborated with the Germans who had earlier attacked and devastated their own France...unthinkable but even things like this can also happen in the best of nations and with the best of patriots...some plans work well, others fail miserably...

We have certainly not achieved greatness overall but we do have the potential and that is what we must bank on when planning decades ahead...even then there are a lot of unknowns which make even great nations suffer tremendous reverses and take them to the very brink...

To me greatness cannot simply be measured by results alone but is also associated with the character of a nation when faced with tremendous odds and its ability to pick itself up and be ready for another round...

The will of a nation defines its greatness and the will of a nation is not forged overnight but takes time to develop and has to withstand many tests and trials...

In brief, if we stick it out, defeat the terrorists, force the government to perform as per our wishes and learn from our mistakes...we shall become a nation on its way to certain greatness.

Yes we have to be practical about everything so we must remember that it is a long haul and no short cuts will do us any good to reverse our fortunes overnight...it is a slow march but we have to ensure that it is steady and in the direction we desire...that is where the average Pakistani has to play its part in fighting for Pakistan.
Be it politics, discussions, blogs, forums, media...it is our job to project a positive attitude and highlight what needs to be done and why it has to be done...too long were the extremists ignored by the nation as a whole which thought that these were the Mujahideen we and the whole free world supported, anyone who associates these thugs with the Mujahideen should remember that the Jihad died the day these extremists turned their guns on Pakistan...not because we are gods chosen people but because Jihad was for liberation of the suppressed and clearly the attack on Pakistan is not for any liberation but is treachery to the very nation who supported the Mujahideen through thick and thin in the name of freedom...

Thankfully the blind trust for anyone using the name of Mujahideen is no more the case across the majority of the populace...the support for extremists is dying down since their true face has been exposed...Public perception is already changing regarding the Operations against the extremists...change is already occurring but it takes time and is a painful process.


Sir you are right greatness is not achieved in one night...

But see its been 62 years now and we "HAVE NOT" shown any sign of improvement....Pakistan is a new country but our civilization is not new….we are the same people who lived in sub continent and came to Pakistan and we left our "land" India and gave it to hindus....anyways it will take years and years to make Pakistan a "nation" and as you said greatness is not achieved in short time and till now we cannot even see "any" sign pointing towards "greatness"…

:pakistan:
 
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