Foxbat over Pakistan the facts & fiction

[nair]

PS; Any inputs from decoding the CVR and FDR? Couldn't find it

Who has it? India or Pak?

 

[Hellfire]

Who has it? India or Pak?

Pakistan .. we would have been sending copies to all over the world and solar system otherwise

 

[nair]

Pakistan .. we would have been sending copies to all over the world and solar system otherwise

Lol yeah.... In that case as @Oscar said it would have been buried along with other evidences, even bilal also said the same....

 

[SQ8]

Exactly sir. That's my POV too. The Pakistani armed forces are held in high esteem for professionalism at least by people like I and indeed majority of armed forces in India. Having said that, I was genuinely keen to hear something different. Just the curiosity of an alternate.

Thanks for your input.

PS; Any inputs from decoding the CVR and FDR? Couldn't find it

I am thinking more along the lines of it being a compartmentalized operation within India and a portion of its intelligence agencies. I am not sure about the internal mutiny bit but am quite certain about a deliberate interception within the No man's airspace we have.

There was another very interesting incident that happened during the Agra negotiations where a certain hawk in the intel network tried to pull off an op and was caught, apparently being repudiated by PM V's office directly. Both sides have these under achieving folks who are out to prove a point that ends up in "misconstrued" boundaries of operations; such as opening fire on posts or in more severe cases the militant support.

No self respecting CO will let it go out in public that their subordinate ended up acting beyond their orders and nearly taking everyone to war simply due to cultural checks.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Truly a thread deserving its title

facts & fiction


Tenth of August, 1999 would be remembered as a Black Day in Pakistan. On that day two Indian Air Force Mig jet fighters sneaked into Pakistan's air space and tried to skyjack an Atlantic patrol aircraft of the Pakistan Navy from over Sindh to India. Failing in their dastardly objective, the Migs shot down the unarmed slow moving aircraft without any warning. It was a dirty cowardly act only the Indian Air Force could be proud of. I am sure, if the Indian people were aware of the truth they would bow down their heads in shame. Sixteen naval personnel onboard led by the Captain of the aircraft Lieutenant Commander Mehboob Alam preferred Shahadat to preserve national honour rather than to be skyjacked to India. This was in keeping with the true spirit of Islam and traditions of the Navy

- Vice Adm (Retd) IQBAL F QUADIR

http://www.defencejournal.com/nov99/naval.htm

Well the egg on the face is, if the IAF or rather India was aware of the so called mutiny and even if it had failed, wouldn't India have made a song and dance about it, surely there's nothing more demoralising for a force and specially a Nation to find out that it's military officers or personal want to escape to the enemy country.

As I said, it is my assessment. I have been wrong before, but this is what i conclude from seeing various public and classified data. It could also have been a technical error, either intentional or navigation failure. But knowing how well the ATL were upgraded, it is hard to digest. The path claimed by Indian aircraft is their side of the story. It is possible as Sir Iqbal claims, that their MIg-21s crossed border. The questions that remain unanswered are, why was the aircraft sent to border, as its typical roles are at sea, why were the radios off (pilots didn't respond on guard channel), why the violent manoeuvres? The aircraft obviously heard the radios from the Indian bogies. This tells many critical thinkers that there was more to the picture than PN shared. It won't be the first time the Pathetic aviators of PN (we are ashamed to be their trainers) buried a colossal failure.

Pakistan .. we would have been sending copies to all over the world and solar system otherwise

CV FDR is mostly used on civilian aircraft.

I am thinking more along the lines of it being a compartmentalized operation within India and a portion of its intelligence agencies. I am not sure about the internal mutiny bit but am quite certain about a deliberate interception within the No man's airspace we have.

There was another very interesting incident that happened during the Agra negotiations where a certain hawk in the intel network tried to pull off an op and was caught, apparently being repudiated by PM V's office directly. Both sides have these under achieving folks who are out to prove a point that ends up in "misconstrued" boundaries of operations; such as opening fire on posts or in more severe cases the militant support.

No self respecting CO will let it go out in public that their subordinate ended up acting beyond their orders and nearly taking everyone to war simply due to cultural checks.

If the Indians planned shooting down the ATL, that means they even influenced the flying of ATL within the short reaction range of Bhuj 21s? Either way, i conspire that the ATL was sent to its death in extraordinary circumstances that were never truly investigated.

 

[Hellfire]

CV FDR is mostly used on civilian aircraft.

So, am I to understand that PN and PAF, disable the use of CVR, FDR and do not use the data thereof for any court of inquiry? Quite strange. So how do your ACs get permission for joint exercises in US? You have to be FAA compliant ...

For the first time I am coming across this news for any force in the world ...

Below is for our AN-32 crash in NE .. CVR and FDR were analysed

http://netindian.in/news/2009/06/10/0002155/wreckage-iafs-32-aircraft-found-all-13-aboard-killed

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

 

[PARIKRAMA]

So, am I to understand that PN and PAF, disable the use of CVR, FDR and do not use the data thereof for any court of inquiry?

For the first time I am coming across this news for any force in the world ...

Below is for our AN-32 crash in NE .. CVR and FDR were analysed

http://netindian.in/news/2009/06/10/0002155/wreckage-iafs-32-aircraft-found-all-13-aboard-killed

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

In India you wont get an air worthiness certificate unless you have both FDR and CVR installed and in working condition. Its applicable to both Civil Aviation as well as Military Aviation.

There is Annual Renewal Certificate which is given only when the yearly checks show that both these items are working and in proper conditions. In fact without that which if i remember correctly is in page 1 within top 6-7 points, the certificate is not given at all nor renewed.

I am not sure about Pakistan but i believe it should be similar as its part of a normal policy but then again certain restriction like omission may be there. But in general and IMHO they should be present.

 

[zebra7]

What nobody has ever said out in public, that the ATL-1 was hijack. When the pilots overcame the mutiny, and the aircraft escorting realised, they shot it down. Indians then infiltrated in Jaati to pick up the wreckage, just to show the world. All crew dead, medals given, chapter closed.

You posted the theory, which might bring the earthquake

 

[Hellfire]

In India you wont get an air worthiness certificate unless you have both FDR and CVR installed and in working condition. Its applicable to both Civil Aviation as well as Military Aviation.

There is Annual Renewal Certificate which is given only when the yearly checks show that both these items are working and in proper conditions. In fact without that which if i remember correctly is in page 1 within top 6-7 points, the certificate is not given at all nor renewed.

I am not sure about Pakistan but i believe it should be similar as its part of a normal policy but then again certain restriction like omission may be there. But in general and IMHO they should be present.

That's what I am aware of also ... and I believe so is the case of PCAA for aircrafts traversing the Pakistani Air. Tagged you in case you have any such information of PAF, PN, PA being exempt from the guidelines and in turn their de-activating the CVRs and FDRs for their military flights. Because I am quite keen to know what happened to the CVR and FDR which could only be in Pakistani territory after the shoot down.


I was just extrapolating it to the new Airbus platforms .. pilots will be grounded in India if they mess with the FMS of the aircraft!!!! LOL

Thanks

An interesting article of evolution of PNS Mehran


Pakistan's Naval Air Power

By John Fricker

LAUNCHED in the mid-1970s,Pakistan Naval Ship Mehran has no hull or engines and will never take to sea. Following the Royal Navy's long-established tradition of giving its land bases ships names, PNS Mehran is, in fact, an airfield just outside Pakistan's main port of Karachi, to which the local personnel no doubt go ashore by liberty boats when off duty in the time- honoured RN manner.

This is not the only feature of British origin taken over by the Pakistan Navy; PNS Mehran itself was built by the RAF as an operational and maintenance base for its Indian air policing from the I920s. It was also the birthplace of the Indian Air Force, formally constituted in 1932. When the IAF's first aircraft unit was formed with four Westland Wapiti IIA army cooperation biplanes as the nucleus of No1 Squadron on I April,1933, the base was known as Drigh Road. It retained that name until rechristened Sharea Faisal Air Base some years after the Pakistan Air Force was formed from the transfer of one IAF transport and two fighter squadrons on 14 August 1947.

Well before then, however, Drigh Road (pronounced Drigg locally) began its maritime aviation associations with extensive operations by No I IAF Sqn's venerable Wapitis along with Hawker Harts and Audaxes on Coastal Defence Flights in the first few years o f the Second World War. T hese associations continued following Americanisation of the PAF through US Mutual Aid Programmes, when a joint defence assistance alliance was signed by Pakistan on 19 May 1954, as a prelude to participation in CENT O and SEA TO Pacts. This involved replacing the PAF's mostly ex-RAF Second World War equipment with nothing less than an instant air force, comprising not only seven NAA F-86F Sab're, one Martin B-57 and one Lockheed RT-33 combat squadrons, plus Cessna T-37, NAA T-6G and Lockheed T-33 trainers, but also an SAR Flight with four Grumman SA-16 Albatross amphibians and eight Sikorsky H-19A helicopters based at Drigh Road (continued)

Just posted the first few lines of the article in order not to go to off tangent. @Windjammer Sorry for this ...

More at

http://www.freeshopmanual.com/uploa...1-Turbo-Firecat-Fire-Fighter-from-Cacnada.pdf

 

[Windjammer]

Another thing i have learned today from as they say Horses mouth, is that if an aircraft breaks the sound barrier at or above 40 000 feet, the sound wouldn't reach the ground unless the nose is pitched at a certain angle, in any case PAF had well devised tactics to shoot down the Foxbat but after this small incursion it never entered Pakistani air space.

 

[SQ8]

If the Indians planned shooting down the ATL, that means they even influenced the flying of ATL within the short reaction range of Bhuj 21s? Either way, i conspire that the ATL was sent to its death in extraordinary circumstances that were never truly investigated.

If it was any other aircraft it would make sense for it to be out there. The ATL had absolutely nothing of value and no place doing any purported recon out here unless it had a flight path that was changed.

If a DA20 had gone down, we would not be having this discussion.


Interestingly, Naliya AFS had forward deployed Type-88 Mig-21s but these were not considered for the task, instead they used Bhuj based Vikram 21s.

That's what I am aware of also ... and I believe so is the case of PCAA for aircrafts traversing the Pakistani Air. Tagged you in case you have any such information of PAF, PN, PA being exempt from the guidelines and in turn their de-activating the CVRs and FDRs for their military flights.

Normally they should not be, but be advised that CVR's and FDR's in military aircraft came out a little later than they did for civilian jets; and the PN Atlantiques were delivered in the mid to late 70's following the realisation that PN needed sea surveillance after 71.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

If it was any other aircraft it would make sense for it to be out there. The ATL had absolutely nothing of value and no place doing any purported recon out here unless it had a flight path that was changed.

If a DA20 had gone down, we would not be having this discussion.


Interestingly, Naliya AFS had forward deployed Type-88 Mig-21s but these were not considered for the task, instead they used Bhuj based Vikram 21s.



Normally they should not be, but be advised that CVR's and FDR's in military aircraft came out a little later than they did for civilian jets; and the PN Atlantiques were delivered in the mid to late 70's following the realisation that PN needed sea surveillance after 71.

I agree. ATL should not have been over Talhar and Jaati, and the question of flight plan change is a valid one, so is the aircraft not responding or giving any distress calls (or none that were received by ATC, SOUSEC).

 

[Hellfire]

ELINT mission was considered to be the task allocated. That is the assessment on Indian side. The Fact that the aircraft debris were found 2 kms on Pakistani side of IB, can not rule out airspace violation in the convoluted border region. However, the violation of the 10 km no fly zone was adequately exhibited. Additionally, all accounts have indicated that the IAF fighters were trying to get the PN AC to land and were postured to escort it to the nearest Air Base as directed by ground controllers. So possibility of a shoot in Indian airspace is also there. The data of FDR and CVR is hence of value, which strangely is missing and was never brought out.

Intercept of the PN Atlantique was by Migs ex-45 Sqn, based at Naliya at the time. Open sourced across the net.

@Oscar
Sir. CVRs and FDRs made an appearance in 1950s-60s and the compliance of western manufactured equipment, civil or military, was achieved more or less along with the civil entities. The same was achieved across Soviet Military platforms by early 1970s too.

I am merely intrigued by the claim of the aforementioned professional who has attributed use of CVRs and FDRs to civil usage pre-dominantly. Anyone in any AF will know how seriously such a claim should(should not) be taken.

Pertinent to note, the upgradation of PN Atlantiques was also undertaken with enhancements undertaken to enable Anti-ship role as also ELINT tasking. And this was 1999, so a supposition that no upgradation of the aircraft took place will be pretty far fetched. Additionally, all aircrafts being designed/flying in EU countries or US need to be compliant with the civil safety standards of the said country. A new aircraft will not be certified if it does not meet the civil aviation standards. Holds for the military too.

While CVR usually holds no value for post-flight de-brief and assessment in fighters due to obvious reasons while being a yardstick for evaluation of a pilot in transports, the FDR is valuable for both transports and fighters.

A source for general capability of the platform; the parameters as listed leave me actually incredulous over the claims of CVR and FDR.

http://pakdef.org/breguet-atlantic-1/

I am yet to find any source where I can give specifics of upgrade program undertaken due to paucity of time. Will do so when possible.

However, I request if any error or additional information that you can point out, will be grateful.

Thanks

 

[Windjammer]

@Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 , speaking to my source who normally sounds like a top notch bank manager or even a professor didn't take kindly when i asked if there was any chance of a mutiny or some form of conspiracy, he totally rejected the idea,
He said, although the Navy boys were keen to go into every corner of the country but the incident he described as pure murder and a despicable act by the IAF just to revenge their Kargil losses.

 

[ghazi768]

My apologies for being harsh, but this is pure bull shit being spewed here now.

It was a standard case of pure ambush. ATL was on a routine training flight and this wasn't the first flight in the area and talk of non-communications over VHF is in-correct, there was no dedicated communications setup in that area and fighter pilots who have ended up before flying around run of kutch knew that radio communication with base breaks off at times. In those days, going off-track to a few miles is not something new, Atlantics did not have dedicated mapping and GPS subsystems at that time and required an NO to manage navigation.

Bastards have watched such flights before and planned it well in advance with assets in place. But their plan to make it land did not work out, they had a very small window of time to attempt it and shamefully they shot it down on failure. Shooting down an unarmed aircraft in peace-time over international border is not heroic but a dastardly act of cowardice.

This talk of mutiny with a bloody dozen trainees on board is just pure fantasy.