Foxbat over Pakistan the facts & fiction

[Windjammer]

Why rain on their parade? Pride must be salvaged, far better to attribute losses to internal strife or some kind of underhand sabotage then to give enemy due credit for vigilance.

Well right now for me it is a story, and the way bilal khan has explained or ended his post, i thought there are more to it..... But my post was specific to you, as you found more interest on the photo than this event from a guy who worked in PAF (may be as he said sad day in his aviation career )

Well the egg on the face is, if the IAF or rather India was aware of the so called mutiny and even if it had failed, wouldn't India have made a song and dance about it, surely there's nothing more demoralising for a force and specially a Nation to find out that it's military officers or personal want to escape to the enemy country.

 

[Hellfire]

There's nothing more ridiculous than people without knowing basics of military aircraft just copy pasting to win an argument,
The subject was a MiG-29 pilot which was deployed as a fighter/ interceptor by the IAF hence no chance of it carrying out any ground strikes.... in any case you should have read his citation i posted, post#294, which clearly mentions the details of award....as 229 Sqn MiG-29 For CAP and escort missions.

@Windjammer

Not sure about medal but he was certainly awarded, what's more, it's even listed by them as an IAF kill.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-20#ixzz4G5Pg9EXK

Awards and Decorations
Number of Awards: 1

Vayu Sena Medal (Gallantry)
Flt Lt Gaurav Chibber 22926 F(P) Award Date Announced 15 Aug 99 No Image Available
Details :
229 Sqn MiG-29 For CAP and escort missions

Unit : 223 Squadron
On August 6, 1999, when Flt. Lt. Gaurav Chibber's MiG-29 was on a routine sortie over Himachal Pradesh, it suddenly developed problems and crashed into the pine forests. He died just days before he was to be awarded the prestigious Vayu Sena medal and was to get married.

An IAF court of inquiry later attributed the cause of the crash to disorientation experienced by the pilot while flying through cloud cover.



Source: https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-20#ixzz4G5QC534u

This is not a citation, it is a background history. If you by mistake ever wrote a military citation or ever saw one, you will know what is the difference.

For India - it has a format wherein you have to give a brief description of qualifying act in 30 words and then detailed write up in 200 words.

The source ?

Already discussed, the said gentleman, by members here

https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-the-widow-makers-with-28-fighters-lost-in-1999.6159/


I am again asking you to source your claim of it being credited as a kill by IAF while he being responsible for the 'lock' etc etc which your sequential posts are trying to imply.

If am mistaken in my reading of what you are trying to imply, my apologies.

There's nothing more ridiculous than people without knowing basics of military aircraft just copy pasting to win an argument,
The subject was a MiG-29 pilot which was deployed as a fighter/ interceptor by the IAF hence no chance of it carrying out any ground strikes.... in any case you should have read his citation i posted, post#294, which clearly mentions the details of award....as 229 Sqn MiG-29 For CAP and escort missions.

Are you sure about the bold?

A tangent now, when you are being asked to source your statements as above? I asked you to source your sequential statements. Can you corroborate and reconcile your statement that IAF awarded it as a kill with this gentleman?

Who do you think would Hijack a PN ATL? Pokeman?

Who is Pokeman?

Anyways, is that your retort? Or were you confused when someone is genuinely asking you your opinion about who could have done it?

It is not Pokeman but Pokemon, for your information.

If you can't/don't want to answer. Ignore. Don't flame. I was intrigued by your post and it can make pretty decent sense.

Thanks

Discussed on

https://defence.pk/threads/lest-we-forget.38888/

@Joe Shearer Interesting insight by @Bilal Khan 777 notwithstanding his hint at Pokeman (I guess some alter ego of Pokemon). Can explain the haphazard flight path by the said Aircraft.

 

[nair]

Well the egg on the face is, if the IAF or rather India was aware of the so called mutiny and even if it had failed, wouldn't India have made a song and dance about it, surely there's nothing more demoralising for a force and specially a Nation to find out that it's military officers or personal want to escape to the enemy countr

All this is fine if India is aware of a this so called "Mutiny"...... If not???

Btw : I am not saying there was a mutiny or not, it is some one who worked in the force and supposed to have better knowledge than u or me....

 

[Hellfire]

Truly a thread deserving its title

facts & fiction


Tenth of August, 1999 would be remembered as a Black Day in Pakistan. On that day two Indian Air Force Mig jet fighters sneaked into Pakistan's air space and tried to skyjack an Atlantic patrol aircraft of the Pakistan Navy from over Sindh to India. Failing in their dastardly objective, the Migs shot down the unarmed slow moving aircraft without any warning. It was a dirty cowardly act only the Indian Air Force could be proud of. I am sure, if the Indian people were aware of the truth they would bow down their heads in shame. Sixteen naval personnel onboard led by the Captain of the aircraft Lieutenant Commander Mehboob Alam preferred Shahadat to preserve national honour rather than to be skyjacked to India. This was in keeping with the true spirit of Islam and traditions of the Navy

- Vice Adm (Retd) IQBAL F QUADIR

http://www.defencejournal.com/nov99/naval.htm

 

[nair]

Truly a thread deserving its title

facts & fiction

Now the question is "Which one is Fact" and Which one is Fiction"

 

[Hellfire]

Even Dr Muhammad Anwar in his autobiography 'Stolen Stripes & Broken Medals' (Page 245) was clear as to what happened in the said incident.

And then we have the usual conspiracy theories. I was intrigued by @Bilal Khan 777 version as what he said may just make sense as an alternate to hundreds of others saying to contrary.

So asked him one decent question and I get a Pokeman!!! LOL

 

[Hell hound]

So accoring to you the aircraft was shot by PAF?

i think what he meant was that the plane was not shot by the paf but iaf after they sense that plane is not responding, neither it is following their instruction and then the violent Maneuvers due the mutiny was the final nail in the coffin and led to atlantic's demise.

 

[Windjammer]

@Windjammer

Not sure about medal but he was certainly awarded, what's more, it's even listed by them as an IAF kill.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-20#ixzz4G5Pg9EXK

Awards and Decorations
Number of Awards: 1

Vayu Sena Medal (Gallantry)
Flt Lt Gaurav Chibber 22926 F(P) Award Date Announced 15 Aug 99 No Image Available
Details :
229 Sqn MiG-29 For CAP and escort missions

Unit : 223 Squadron
On August 6, 1999, when Flt. Lt. Gaurav Chibber's MiG-29 was on a routine sortie over Himachal Pradesh, it suddenly developed problems and crashed into the pine forests. He died just days before he was to be awarded the prestigious Vayu Sena medal and was to get married.

An IAF court of inquiry later attributed the cause of the crash to disorientation experienced by the pilot while flying through cloud cover.



Source: https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-20#ixzz4G5QC534u

This is not a citation, it is a background history. If you by mistake ever wrote a military citation or ever saw one, you will know what is the difference.

For India - it has a format wherein you have to give a brief description of qualifying act in 30 words and then detailed write up in 200 words.

The source ?

Already discussed, the said gentleman, by members here

https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-the-widow-makers-with-28-fighters-lost-in-1999.6159/


I am again asking you to source your claim of it being credited as a kill by IAF while he being responsible for the 'lock' etc etc which your sequential posts are trying to imply.

If am mistaken in my reading of what you are trying to imply, my apologies.




Are you sure about the bold?

A tangent now, when you are being asked to source your statements as above? I asked you to source your sequential statements. Can you corroborate and reconcile your statement that IAF awarded it as a kill with this gentleman?
.

@hellfire , albeit we are way off topic here but none the less, if you check the listings of claimed IAF victories against PAF, you will find the lock on F-16 listed as one, the citation or link i posted clearly states the award for CAPs and air escort duties and no other action involved , certainly MiG-29 weren't used for any strike missions. In any case now i have even acquired enough material to debunk this so called ''Fulcrum buzzing Falcon'' theory.....but all that later. !!!

 

[Hellfire]

@hellfire , albeit we are way off topic here but none the less, if you check the listings of claimed IAF victories against PAF, you will find the lock on F-16 listed as one, the citation or link i posted clearly states the award for CAPs and air escort duties and no other action involved , certainly MiG-29 weren't used for any strike missions. In any case now i have even acquired enough material to debunk this so called ''Fulcrum buzzing Falcon'' theory.....but all that later. !!!

Again. Sequential analysis of post #286 (yours) till (and inclusive of) #294 (yours). Your reference for the relation between the #286 and #294 is awaited.

Your wordings have simmered down from

There's nothing more ridiculous than people without knowing basics of military aircraft just copy pasting to win an argument,

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-21#ixzz4G5hIqQpU

Much appreciated. Can have a pretty long and detailed interaction on that .....



CAP - all Mig-29s were undertaking. It was a war! Citations were given left, right and centre. An-32 incident from the Jaguar thread you had started? The then Wing Commander (the Co-pilot of the said aircraft) SC Chafekar got promoted and was decorated with Shaurya Chakra. So?

I am not interested in your theories and your effort at creating a theory and debunking it yourself. I am interested in your collating or proving your statement where facts are concerned. Theories are theories and can be right/wrong as per circumstances around them.

And suggest for Atlantique incident, read through the numerous discussions over the topic since I joined PDF and in which you yourself have participated and the opinion of roughly all professionals on it being shot down by India and not a single point wherein the theory as proposed by Bilal Khan 777 was there. An insight which can have possible merit, I agree.

Anyways I digress.

 

[Hell hound]

@hellfire , albeit we are way off topic here but none the less, if you check the listings of claimed IAF victories against PAF, you will find the lock on F-16 listed as one, the citation or link i posted clearly states the award for CAPs and air escort duties and no other action involved , certainly MiG-29 weren't used for any strike missions. In any case now i have even acquired enough material to debunk this so called ''Fulcrum buzzing Falcon'' theory.....but all that later. !!!

bro make another thread about it then so all of us can discuss and enjoy it

 

[Hellfire]

i think what he meant was that the plane was not shot by the paf but iaf after they sense that plane is not responding, neither it is following their instruction and then the violent Maneuvers due the mutiny was the final nail in the coffin and led to atlantic's demise.

That it was shot down by IAF for non-compliance to land at the Indian Air Base is accepted .. it has been discussed exhaustively earlier in the forum

We were interested in @Bilal Khan 777 theory of some sort of mutiny ... which can have some sense .. so were asking who could have been behind the said act ..

 

[Hell hound]

That it was shot down by IAF for non-compliance to land at the Indian Air Base is accepted .. it has been discussed exhaustively earlier in the forum

We were interested in @Bilal Khan 777 theory of some sort of mutiny ... which can have some sense .. so were asking who could have been behind the said act ..

that i don't know bro only the pn or paf can tell us that.if they ever did an inquire about the said incident

 

[Hellfire]

that i don't know bro only the pn or paf can tell us that.if they ever did an inquire about the said incident

Exactly. Do a search, all documents point to other angles. His angle is good. I was genuinely interested to know more about his angle of mutiny, I am never going to be in a position to know what transpired, but a member trying to explain a different view piqued my interest .. but was disappointed with his attitude.

 

[SQ8]

Why rain on their parade? Pride must be salvaged, far better to attribute losses to internal strife or some kind of underhand sabotage then to give enemy due credit for vigilance.

If pride is in trying to violate international airspace to force an aircraft to surrender, then the IAF has the lowest standards I have heard of yet for "Pride".

Exactly. Do a search, all documents point to other angles. His angle is good. I was genuinely interested to know more about his angle of mutiny, I am never going to be in a position to know what transpired, but a member trying to explain a different view piqued my interest .. but was disappointed with his attitude.

Everything on that incident was buried. Which is probably the whole source of the intrigue as well.
Having met one of the pilots prior to this at a younger age, I dont doubt that they were professionals.
There would have to be a VERY VERY VERY good reason for them to be out that close to the border since the ATL had nothing onboard that would imply an espionage purpose.

 

[Hellfire]

Everything on that incident was buried. Which is probably the whole source of the intrigue as well.Having met one of the pilots prior to this at a younger age, I dont doubt that they were professionals.There would have to be a VERY VERY VERY good reason for them to be out that close to the border since the ATL had nothing onboard that would imply an espionage purpose.

Exactly sir. That's my POV too. The Pakistani armed forces are held in high esteem for professionalism at least by people like I and indeed majority of armed forces in India. Having said that, I was genuinely keen to hear something different. Just the curiosity of an alternate.

Thanks for your input.

PS; Any inputs from decoding the CVR and FDR? Couldn't find it