Foxbat over Pakistan the facts & fiction

[Viper0011.]

My gripe would only be with the one who gave the order for the aircraft to be sent to the TRN area, or the one who changed the flight plan. I have all the respect for the departed, since they are not here to defend themselves. .

This didn't make sense to even us "dumb Americans" as you guys refer to us often in India and Pakistan. When tensions are high (like the US would go to DefCon 3, 2 is like almost at war), it means the SOP's will be put in place. No military plane goes closer to the enemy's territory without proper escort. In this case, you guys had taken down two of their jet, this was imminent.

So I have the same question, who the hell authorized the flight without the escort and approved that flight plan that even a short range missile from a Mig at the border would take down the plane. If you learn about it, do share with me.

F 16 service ceiling was 50000 feet

How could it engage the MIG 25 flying over 70000 feet. And in 1997 you had F 16 A / B with NO BVRAAM

The F-16 can always engage the Mig from 55k to 60k feet with the Sidewinder. Also, the -16's had the provision for the Sparrow missile even in the A/B models. If the memory serves me correctly, the Pakistani aircraft weren't given the SAR capability for which, back then, Gen. Zia and his team in military procurement, called the lack of SAR out in almost every meeting about the PAF (and it was at times annoying).

 

[SQ8]

I knew most of them. Read earlier that this is the saddest incident of my career. No disagreements with your statements, but the last manoeuvres of the aircraft are easily in contradiction to the doctored AAM picture used by the Indians, from underneath the aircraft nose up and such range where the AAM would not even lock. The aircraft probably cartwheeled at low altitude when challenged by the Migs to land at Bhuj..

It could be that the purported picture was taken during their attempt to force the aircraft into their airspace but it is misconstrued as one prior to launch. In either case,we have digressed too much from the topic.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

This didn't make sense to even us "dumb Americans" as you guys refer to us often in India and Pakistan. When tensions are high (like the US would go to DefCon 3, 2 is like almost at war), it means the SOP's will be put in place. No military plane goes closer to the enemy's territory without proper escort. In this case, you guys had taken down two of their jet, this was imminent.

So I have the same question, who the hell authorized the flight without the escort and approved that flight plan that even a short range missile from a Mig at the border would take down the plane. If you learn about it, do share with me.



The F-16 can always engage the Mig from 55k to 60k feet with the Sidewinder. Also, the -16's had the provision for the Sparrow missile even in the A/B models. If the memory serves me correctly, the Pakistani aircraft weren't given the SAR capability for which, back then, Gen. Zia and his team in military procurement, called the lack of SAR out in almost every meeting about the PAF (and it was at times annoying).

SAR mode is useful for AG not AA engagement. APG66 was not provided with SAR. Get ready for many telling you how the Foxbat, being supersonic, evades the sidewinder at 60K in head-on eng. Let me get some popcorn and my log book for nostalgia.

It could be that the purported picture was taken during their attempt to force the aircraft into their airspace but it is misconstrued as one prior to launch. In either case,we have digressed too much from the topic.

I agree that the picture is taken as the aircraft approached the ATL for escort, but the AAM plume is a farce.

 

[SQ8]

I agree that the picture is taken as the aircraft approached the ATL for escort, but the AAM plume is a farce.

They took cue out of Zee news.

SAR mode is useful for AG not AA engagement. APG66 was not provided with SAR. Get ready for many telling you how the Foxbat, being supersonic, evades the sidewinder at 60K in head-on eng. Let me get some popcorn and my log book for nostalgia

Not that it cant, but I would love to see it try to pull off something at 1.5 mach at 60K ft without having a tail fly off or even end up in a inverted flat spin. The many would be oblivious to Mach at altitude,calibrated airspeed and would be very far off from a term related to a coffin.

 

[Viper0011.]

SAR mode is useful for AG not AA engagement. APG66 was not provided with SAR. Get ready for many telling you how the Foxbat, being supersonic, evades the sidewinder at 60K in head-on eng. Let me get some popcorn and my log book for nostalgia.

Yes, I am aware of the fact obviously that the SAR wasn't provided. I wrote it in my previous post. The point I was making,was that the PAF -16's had the provision for Sparrows. If they had the missiles, they could've used it. Two Sparrows pose a real threat with their range back then.

On the Foxbat, well, you can get the popcorn ready for the show and let people make their statements. At the end of the day, the USAF took some down so hey, who do you listen to? The gossip and the verbal vomit or the facts? I'll let you be the judge .

For people who'd question my previous post, you should read below:

There is a simpler technique to counter a Foxbat. One -16 armed with three Sidewinders, when gets to around 55-60k feet, it fires the first one. At the right range, altitude and time, the missile could get to the Foxbat. So the Foxbat has to maneuver to break the lock.

This is where one needs to understand how these super fast jets work and how the Physics is applied. The Foxbat, the SR-71, U-2 and anything in this class are considered a "Vector" in Physics language. Meaning they are aerodynamically superior and they fly like an arrow cutting through the air. But the second they maneuver at such high speeds, due to the jet's weight at that height, the aerodynamic change, energy bleeds and the G-forces put insane pressure on the air-frame, the plane loses its momentum instantaneously. The third law of Physics would tell you that every action has an equal but opposite reaction in terms of force being applied on the action's side, and then from the reaction's end.

So the Vector loses speed just as fast as it maneuvered to break the missile lock. Now what do you do? A -16 or any other jet flying at 55-60k feet would have about two minutes before the Foxbat (in this case here) can regain its velocity and momentum. That is plenty of time for another Sidewinder to knock it out.

Worst case, the second missile may not take it down, but it will make the Foxbat maneuver again like crazy to break the lock, further degrading the speed and agility. Now you almost have a Mig-23 type capability in a Foxbat, vs. a -16 at lower altitudes (with one sidewinder still left in the -16); and the Foxbat is still recovering as its not designed for lower atmospheric maneuvers and dog fights. Who wins?

The last Sidewinder always will. A few examples, even the -15's don't win from a -16 in a dog fight a lot, the Rafales and the EFT's have had their rears handed to them by Viper pilots time and time again. It is the worst dog fighting machine ever built if you are facing it (unless you are sitting inside the cockpit of a -22 or a -35, than you are safe 80% of the time).

Well, I guess you won't need too many Popcorns as reading above, someone has to be flat out silly to still further question the scenario . And I think someone mentioned you were in the PAF so this post doesn't apply to you, it was for people who question silly on everything Pakistan has or does better.

I'd suggest instead of answering to my post, nay sayers learn to fly a propeller plane first and take some college level Physics classes, or find a Foxbat pilot who's dealt with a Viper before over Iraq, Syria, etc. You'll learn the truth. And it will all make sense to the critics

 

[Raider 21]

Yes, I am aware of the fact obviously that the SAR wasn't provided. I wrote it in my previous post. The point I was making,was that the PAF -16's had the provision for Sparrows. If they had the missiles, they could've used it. Two Sparrows pose a real threat with their range back then.

On the Foxbat, well, you can get the popcorn ready for the show and let people make their statements. At the end of the day, the USAF took some down so hey, who do you listen to? The gossip and the verbal vomit or the facts? I'll let you be the judge .

There is a simpler technique to counter a Foxbat. One -16 armed with three Sidewinders, when gets to around 55-60k feet, it fires the first one. At the right range, altitude and time, the missile could get to the Foxbat. So the Foxbat has to maneuver to break the lock.

This is where one needs to understand how these super fast jets work and how the Physics is applies. The Foxbat, the SR-71, U-2 and anything in this class are considered a "Vector" in Physics language. Meaning they are aerodynamically superior and they fly like an arrow cutting through the air. But the second they maneuver at such high speeds, due to the jet's weight at that height, the aerodynamic changes it encounters, energy bleed and the G-forces, the plane loses its momentum instantaneously. The third law of Physics would tell you that every action has an equal but opposite reaction in terms of force being used.

So the Vector loses speed just as fast as it maneuvered to break the missile lock. Now what do you do? A -16 or any other jet flying at 55-60k feet has about two minutes before the Foxbat (in this case here) can regain its velocity and momentum. That is plenty of time for another Sidewinder to knock it out.

Worst case, the second missile may not take it down, but it will make the Foxbat maneuver again like crazy to break the lock, further degrading the speed and agility. Now you almost have a Mig-23 type capability in a Foxbat, vs. a -16 at lower altitudes (with one sidewinder still left in the -16) and the Foxbat is still recovering as its not designed for lower atmospheric maneuvers and dog fights. Who wins? The last Sidewinder always will. A few examples, even the -15's don't win from a -16 in a dog fight a lot, the Rafales and the EFT's have had their rears handed to them by Viper pilots time and time again. It is the worst dog fighting machine ever built if you are facing it .

Well, I guess you won't need too many Popcorns as reading above, someone has to be flat out silly to still further question the scenario. I'd suggest instead of answering to my post, they learn to fly a propeller plane first and take some college level Physics classes, or find a Foxbat pilot who's dealt with a Viper before over Iraq, Syria, etc. You'll learn the truth. And it will all make sense to the critics

From a Viper driver I know (my old man having flown in the Soviet-Afghan conflict), he said if they had Sparrows they would've shot down at least 30-40 jets down.

 

[Viper0011.]

Not that it cant, but I would love to see it try to pull off something at 1.5 mach at 60K ft without having a tail fly off or even end up in a inverted flat spin. The many would be oblivious to Mach at altitude,calibrated airspeed and would be very far off from a term related to a coffin.

I think the poster you are addressing (ex-PAF?) can tell you easily that at 60k feet, a -16 flies like a charm and doesn't lose a tail or a wing. And I can also assure you of that. Hell, a -16 doesn't even lose body parts at 11.5 G's. The main issue is, can the pilot take it? Planes like the F-16, F-35 and the F-22 are built once every century IMO.

 

[Windjammer]

I think the poster you are addressing (ex-PAF?) can tell you easily that at 60k feet, a -16 flies like a charm and doesn't lose a tail or a wing. And I can also assure you of that. Hell, a -16 doesn't even lose body parts at 11.5 G's. The main issue is, can the pilot take it? Planes like the F-16, F-35 and the F-22 are built once every century IMO.

I think you misunderstood @Oscar , he was referring to the Foxbat trying anything fancy at that speed and altitude since unlike say the F-16, it's not meant for any twists and turns.

 

[SQ8]

I think the poster you are addressing (ex-PAF?) can tell you easily that at 60k feet, a -16 flies like a charm and doesn't lose a tail or a wing. And I can also assure you of that. Hell, a -16 doesn't even lose body parts at 11.5 G's. The main issue is, can the pilot take it? Planes like the F-16, F-35 and the F-22 are built once every century IMO.

Please read my post again and not be in a hurry to fire off something to sound authoritative.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I am not a bloody mouth-piece of Gov or PAF or PN and have known enough dark characters and stories to know that all is not hunky and dory and had never been. But is it always essential for us that for every incidence we first go on debating some god damned conspiracy theory before coming back to senses.

If conspiracy theories is all we are here interested in, than go on, call the crew reckless,inept what ever. After all these are the same guys who on seeing an Indian ship in clear blue seas will not give up a chance to 'buzz' it and actually once ended up getting shot at. But calling them treasonous or mutinous is far fetched. They were on a mission whether training or surveillance and were clearly performing within the orders they were given. And I think it is a disservice to them and our nation when every thing points to that bastards next doors had a huge hurt ego and had murder in their heart.

After-all isn't this thread about indian foxbat buzzing over Lahore and else to somehow salvage their egos and in case of ATL flight they actually have the audacity to claim that Atlantic flight was violating a bilateral agreement to not fly with-in 10 kms of international border. Bullshit..

Call PN and PAF leadership what ever names you want for not being cautious enough and unable to read the mindset of IAF at that time right after hostilities ended at Kargil. But haven't Bill of Clinton intervened and Indians were making tall claims of victory and things were looking to cool down. How many airforces send dedicated fighter escorts with patrol aircrafts while not in full hostilities.

Shit does happen.. that is a fact..

Could you call Russian leadership in-ept, not cautious, or not able to read minds of turkish leadership when their bomber (without a fighter escort at that time) was bombing turkmens right at the border, in full view of Turkish F-16s flying at the border?

Sorry to disturb the flow. Just opening a small parentheses - the order to shoot the Russian jet came from FETO (Fethullah Terrorist Org) chain of command, which used to run parallel to official one, having interface with the outside world lying in Pennsylvania. Half of F16 pilots in TuAF belonged to FETO. By the by, they're now counting their days to face the firing squads..

 

[wiseone2]

My apologies for being harsh, but this is pure bull shit being spewed here now.

It was a standard case of pure ambush. ATL was on a routine training flight and this wasn't the first flight in the area and talk of non-communications over VHF is in-correct, there was no dedicated communications setup in that area and fighter pilots who have ended up before flying around run of kutch knew that radio communication with base breaks off at times. In those days, going off-track to a few miles is not something new, Atlantics did not have dedicated mapping and GPS subsystems at that time and required an NO to manage navigation.

Bastards have watched such flights before and planned it well in advance with assets in place. But their plan to make it land did not work out, they had a very small window of time to attempt it and shamefully they shot it down on failure. Shooting down an unarmed aircraft in peace-time over international border is not heroic but a dastardly act of cowardice.

This talk of mutiny with a bloody dozen trainees on board is just pure fantasy.

I would agree the shooting of Atlantique was pre-mediated. I wonder what pushed the Indian brass to do it. Indian air defense and air force are under strict time orders during peacetime not to shoot anyone.

 

[Nilgiri]

Do you even know the "actual" flight ceiling of the F-16?

Khafee when you are back can we talk about my negative ratings please? Can I edit them so you can reverse it?

 

[khanasifm]

History



http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160905-the-pilot-who-stole-a-secret-soviet-fighter-jet

 

[Windjammer]

Unrelated to the 1997 event, but in the early 90s there was a scramble that launched a No.14 Squadron Viper to intercept a MiG-25 on the eastern border. The Viper pilot had a lock on the Foxbat, with the Foxbat completely unaware that he was under him. The authorisation never came from the AHQ to shoot it down and the Foxbat headed back towards Indian airspace. Heard this from one of the Viper drivers a few years back.

If my information is correct, the Viper pilot in question was, W/C Saffdar Jaan.

 

[Raider 21]

If my information is correct, the Viper pilot in question was, W/C Saffdar Jaan.

Yes....Safdar Mehmood Jah.