Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando - 50 dead and 53 injured

[C130]

I thought its a rightwing christian nutjob when I heard the news.

why would you think that??


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LGBT_people#United_States

 

[Irfan Baloch]

all haters and trolls be warned.
you will face immediate infractions and ban for posting hatred and flame.
despite the tragedy, a certain group of trolls was celebrating and wishing that the killer was Pakistani. he has turned out to be an American born of Afghan Descent. so there is some egg on the face on some haters that look for anti Pakistan opportunities.

posting the homophobic commentary by Muslim clerics on this thread will only get you banned. and I urge other people not to respond with what Neo Nazis and Evangelic Christians say about homosexuals either because its a tragedy of human nature and the sexual orientation of the victims is of no concern for anyone who has a figment of decency

it is understandable that posting Anti Islamic rhetoric is very compelling and satisfying for some but doing so just shows that hatred is more important for such people than showing some restraint due to the nature and level of the tragedy

finally I urge all Muslim posters to refrain from getting fooled and played at the hands of the seasoned trolls and flammers.. just ignore their posts and report them. you got nothing to explain or justify or apologise. the killer swore his allegiance to the death cult which is the creation of the same western governments and their Arab partners in the middle east who wanted to draw new political landscape and there is some blow back being suffered by the innocent citizens of the west who had no say or control in that dirty politics.

Daesh and all its affiliates cant survive more than few weeks if not days, if the world powers are sincere in tackling this menace. this sham death cult cant hold a building let alone large parts of two countries if its makers had realised what monster they have created for their political ends.

lives of the west always seem to matter more than the lives of the people of the middle east. this same death cult has butchered people in thousands in a day and that hardly mattered or gained any attention.
hopefully this tragedy might change the minds of American leadership to stop its deadly game in the Muslim world.

 

[pak-marine]

very sick crime .. RIP those who lost their lives !

 

[livingdead]

why would you think that??


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LGBT_people#United_States

dont know... I just think gays are hated in US by religious conservatives and some of the hatred will boil over from time to time... some of the examples in wiki are probably cases in which victim just happens to be gay but many other cases, homophobia was cause for violence.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Whites and their wannabe Secular terrorist supporters

Can you not bring the colour of skin into this please. By doing so your no differant from the extreme right.

Stop excusing murderers and rapists.

Read below. Does that look like "excusing". I think I was most robust here in making my feelings known about this despicable killer.

And for the record I agree with what @SvenSvensonov said. This was a wicked and evil act by a monster. Nobody and I mean nobody has right to murder others because of their lifestyle. Let it be said I stand behind all the gays in the world. I am red blooded male who loves women. I don't agree with gay lifestyle but hell I will stand by them even when I profoundly disagree with them.

 

[Falcon29]

Again, your venting on is "this a joke" is your own frustration in trying to get people to convert to your view based on just your word for it.

How about we just agree to disagree, I made my points, you disputed them, but at same time won't allow to respond as you're threatening to remove my posts if I do respond. And now that you allowed to me put forth some sources, from a mainstream site(which I chose thinking that will be all you accept), you now dismiss the site and the sources. And express dismay with 'copy paste' the evidence, as if there is any other way to reference the Hadith or Quran verses.

Lets start with Surah Ar-raaf, which briefly talks of the lustful desires of the people of Sodom. The condemnation is for lust and seeking it. It is also Lust which drives such acts in many gay communities.. and also in certain truck stops and madressas as well.

God destroyed the tribe of Lot and his community for the 'lustful desires' or the gay ones. I'm not sure what's confusing about the story.

Yet, the penance for this is being given by god and Lut is being asked to leave the place where this is happening. I dont see any proof in whatever you copy pasted based on the Quran that Muslims are supposed to kill gays.

No that is not what happened, Lot was commanded by God to give his people an ultimatum. He warned them and what not, then they threatened to drive him out, but didn't, and rather mocked him. So God destroyed them:

“Bring God’s torment upon us if you are one of the truthful.” (Quran 29:29)
“And when Our messengers [i.e., angels] came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said, “Indeed, we will destroy the people of that [i.e., Lot’s] city. Indeed, its people have been wrongdoers.” (Quran 29:31)

Lets go with the Hadiath then, first.. all of them are based on weak or poorly referenced hadiath and in my view the statement in red HAS no backing except whoever wrote islamqa and I have no trust on them. That leaves the green bit referring to a hadiath which has not been reported in Sahih Bukhari which is taken as the most authoritative source for Hadiath. Then the source of the supporting of the Hadiath is also plainly glazed over as Sahih by a scholar with whom islamqa gives little reference to..

Tirmidi is not weak or poorly based Hadith, it is actually one of six 'Saheeh' books Sunni's use. Sunan Abu Dawood is also one of those six, authentic hadith, and here is that ruling:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot’s people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4447

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4448
....

Take hadith out, Islam no longer becomes a way of life and just becomes a collection of stories to ponder upon. So your approach makes no sense if you genuinely believe there is more to your supposedly divine religion than just some stories. If you believe religion is man made and should have no influence on state, lifestyle, personal choices, etc....then I don't get the point of pretending to be a Muslim.

So while you may have luck with convincing non-muslims or those muslims that dont research their religion, but I am not buying any of your supposed rhetoric regarding any religious commandment given ..ESPECIALLY by the Quran and via the Prophet to kill Homosexuals.

You would not know anything about the lifestyle of the Prophet had it not been for Hadith. So I'm dismissing your Quran only approach. Hadith is very essential to Islam, without it, 50% if not more of the religion would be missing.

And I'm not trying to convince non-Muslims of anything. My initial argument was actually intended to defend Muslims from attacks on their religion by people adhering to other Abrahamic faiths, that attacks Islam for 'backwards' lifestyle, 'barbaric laws', etc....When their own religions actually command putting to death gays for one example.

Now I'm just proving the hypocrisy of Muslims, Jews and Christians, all that use the same scripture, that are in denial about their religions. And they do a lot of cutting/pasting, to form new books, to give them moral high ground against other people(in this case Islam), to claim Islam is a Satanic religion and the rest are the true religions brought down by God. Like I said, 90% of you don't even know your religions, the ones that do don't bother following them. It's hypocrisy at it's best. Nobody like that impresses me, they can reap token points all they want, I'm straightforward and honest, which is why I don't use religion for personal benefit, and thereby declared myself agnostic-atheist.

 

[Nilgiri]

How about we just agree to disagree, I made my points, you disputed them, but at same time won't allow to respond as you're threatening to remove my posts if I do respond. And now that you allowed to me put forth some sources, from a mainstream site(which I chose thinking that will be all you accept), you now dismiss the site and the sources. And express dismay with 'copy paste' the evidence, as if there is any other way to reference the Hadith or Quran verses.



God destroyed the tribe of Lot and his community for the 'lustful desires' or the gay ones. I'm not sure what's confusing about the story.



No that is not what happened, Lot was commanded by God to give his people an ultimatum. He warned them and what not, then they threatened to drive him out, but didn't, and rather mocked him. So God destroyed them:

“Bring God’s torment upon us if you are one of the truthful.” (Quran 29:29)
“And when Our messengers [i.e., angels] came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said, “Indeed, we will destroy the people of that [i.e., Lot’s] city. Indeed, its people have been wrongdoers.” (Quran 29:31)




Tirmidi is not weak or poorly based Hadith, it is actually one of six 'Saheeh' books Sunni's use. Sunan Abu Dawood is also one of those six, authentic hadith, and here is that ruling:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot’s people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4447

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4448



You would not know anything about the lifestyle of the Prophet had it not been for Hadith. So I'm dismissing your Quran only approach. Hadith is very essential to Islam, without it, 50% if not more of the religion would be missing.

And I'm not trying to convince non-Muslims of anything. My initial argument was actually intended to defend Muslims from attacks on their religion by people adhering to other Abrahamic faiths, that attacks Islam for 'backwards' lifestyle, 'barbaric laws', etc....When their own religions actually command putting to death gays for one example.

Now I'm just proving the hypocrisy of Muslims, Jews and Christians, all that use the same scripture, that are in denial about their religions. And they do a lot of cutting/pasting, to form new books, to give them moral high ground against other people(in this case Islam), to claim Islam is a Satanic religion and the rest are the true religions brought down by God. Like I said, 90% of you don't even know your religions, the ones that do don't bother following them. It's hypocrisy at it's best. Nobody like that impresses me, they can reap token points all they want, I'm straightforward and honest, which is why I don't use religion for personal benefit, and thereby declared myself agnostic-atheist.

What exactly are you saying? These folks had it coming or something?

 

[Natan]

Actually the Jewish religion doesn't consider Christianity to be an abrahamic religion either. They consider Jesus PBUH as a "heretic and a lunatic".

It doesn't mean Christianity isn't abrahamic just because the Jewish don't consider it so.

Actually, the Jewish religion doesn't consider ANY religion to be an abrahamic religion.

The Jewish religion simply doesn't recoginize the term 'abrahamic religion'.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

full name: Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, most likely of Pakistani origin.

Guy is from Afghanistan. Father sought refuge in the safety of USA. Son got too inspired by ISIS.

 

[Falcon29]

What exactly are you saying? These folks had it coming or something?

No, I'm an atheist. As a result of this incident, religious circles(Christian/Jewish) will attack Islam for it's tenets/traditions(not related to this incident), ie the common criticisms of Islam we've seen over and over again. Such as being sexist, anti-gay, or other things.

That criticism is valid to me, as long as it doesn't come from religious Christians/Jews. Because Biblical scripture is where homosexuality was deemed deviant and punishable with death in the first place. So this my religion is better than yours, has been debunked by me. And I'm merely pointing out, that such criticism/favoritism is invalid and severely flawed, also rejected.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Well that won't happen, one, because Christians/Jews don't consider Islam to be an actual Abrahamic faith, they believe Mohammed was a false prophet. And this incident will be politicized, especially in political arena, but also among religious popular circles. What's weird is that Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture all instruct their followers to execute gays. Of course many of them are in denial about that, and will say that's fundamentalist approach. No, that is the Abrahamic approach.

not just the Abrahamic faith but the so called Atheist Neo Nazis also speically hate the gays and their usual genocidal rant is kill all Jews and Gays,

killing someone for his faith or sexual orientation is forbidden for Muslims.. this is something which will be decided on judgement day.. but extremists twist the Quranic text to support their acts and everyone else takes it as it is.
the faith has been here in the world for 1400 years and there was no such issue as is today ... its to do with the dirty politics of middle east and the oil money which is bankrolling it together with the western allies. mind you, its the same Muslims who fought together with the allied armies against the German Nazis .. they never found any reason to do what these terrorists of today are doing. banning the faith will work in favour of the terrorists

 

[Nilgiri]

No, retard, I'm an atheist. As a result of this incident, religious circles(Christian/Jewish) will attack Islam for it's tenets/traditions(not related to this incident), ie the common criticisms of Islam we've seen over and over again. Such as being sexist, anti-gay, or other things.

That criticism is valid to me, as long as it doesn't come from religious Christians/Jews. Because Biblical scripture is where homosexuality was deemed deviant and punishable with death in the first place. So this my religion is better than yours, has been debunked by me. And I'm merely pointing out, that such criticism/favoritism is invalid and severely flawed, also rejected.

Sorry, I didnt read your ending, just saw a lot of religious scripture being quoted so assumption got the better of me. My bad.

No need to call me a retard though.

 

[Bratva]

not just the Abrahamic faith but the so called Atheist Neo Nazis also speically hate the gays and their usual genocidal rant is kill all Jews and Gays,

killing someone for his faith or sexual orientation is forbidden for Muslims.. this is something which will be decided on judgement day.. but extremists twist the Quranic text to support their acts and everyone else takes it as it is.
the faith has been here in the world for 1400 years and there was no such issue as is today ... its to do with the dirty politics of middle east and the oil money which is bankrolling it together with the western allies. mind you, its the same Muslims who fought together with the allied armies against the German Nazis .. they never found any reason to do what these terrorists of today are doing. banning the faith will work in favour of the terrorists

Prophet PBUH recommended it. Homosexuals got killed in the era of Caliphs. Just saying that ISIS type guys do have justifications for their killing from within the Islam. There was no issue as of today because they,muslims, were ignorant of their own religion as rightly pointed by Falcon29.

 

[Falcon29]

not just the Abrahamic faith but the so called Atheist Neo Nazis also speically hate the gays and their usual genocidal rant is kill all Jews and Gays,

killing someone for his faith or sexual orientation is forbidden for Muslims.. this is something which will be decided on judgement day.. but extremists twist the Quranic text to support their acts and everyone else takes it as it is.
the faith has been here in the world for 1400 years and there was no such issue as is today ... its to do with the dirty politics of middle east and the oil money which is bankrolling it together with the western allies. mind you, its the same Muslims who fought together with the allied armies against the German Nazis .. they never found any reason to do what these terrorists of today are doing. banning the faith will work in favour of the terrorists

All Abrahamic faith are clear on position regarding homosexuality, it has no relation to Middle East oil or Saudi Arabia or anything mate. I'm not anti-Islam, I equally criticize all these religions. I just believe humans no longer need these religions. And we can't claim everything is just 'extremist' interpretation, as if the God who made revealed this books made so many mistakes and wasn't sure what he is presenting.

Christians and Jews did the same thing, they blamed 'extreme' or 'literal' interpretations for almost everything in the original scriptures. And they took all of it out, and now they claim they have religion that is compatible with modern world. Sure they do, but they just spit in the face of their God, took out all his commandments, laws, and traditions he ordained upon them, and called it a day. So now, it's okay to drink alcohol, okay to be gay, okay to do pre-marital sex, okay to be unfair to other segments of society(poor), okay to not offer prayer, okay to separate Church and state, etc....

They have legitimized forbidden things in their religion and gave religion entire new meaning. If they truly believed in their God, they would not absolutely disregard him in that way, and put words in his mouth. They do so, because they don't actually believe such a God is real, nor do they believe in hell or heaven, let alone an afterlife. Which means they believe religion is man made, and are at least agnostic if not atheist. So if everyone is agnostic, why not identify as such? Because religion still gives them material benefit, power and influence. They took what they need from it, and dumped the core of it.

And world would be much better off if we were just more honest with ourselves, and moved away from religion.

Anyways, that's all I will say on this matter and end it here.

Sorry, I didnt read your ending, just saw a lot of religious scripture being quoted so assumption got the better of me. My bad.

No need to call me a retard though.

Apologize, glad you got it now.

 

[C130]

dont know... I just think gays are hated in US by religious conservatives and some of the hatred will boil over from time to time... some of the examples in wiki are probably cases in which victim just happens to be gay but many other cases, homophobia was cause for violence.

I've never heard of conservatives killing gays.

gay bashing is pretty much a myth.