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Ex Commanding-in-Chief of the Indian Central Air Command, SBP Sinha on Youtube

Christian - who ? Is she a defence personal ? Shes a nobody ! If you want to keep on quoting random goras - be my guest.


Strategically IAF crossed nuclear rubbicon ! The entire Pakistani narrative that 'Humarein pass bum hain' - went for a toss. Now there is a space of conventional conflict and this suits Indian interests fine. This is the biggest take away for the policy guys and its implication is not lost on Pakistani establishment.
With regards to 350 Militants killed - your guess is as good as mine. But then airspace closure for more than 6 months (Indian air space was absolutely open for civilians) and taking 45 days to take foregin inspectors to a dummy site speaks for itself.


Incorrect. It came out within a couple of days that it was a case of fraticide. You see we have pesky reporters who do their job darn fine. So Indian public knew. Officially IAF concluded court of inquiry after the stipulated period.


You see our armed forces are not corporations ! They are not in it for plots and plum retirement postings. So unlike Pakistani armed forces - we are not in the business of parading operational pilots for questions. But having said that i am sure an interview will come out soon.


Kargil peaks ..pffff. Keep them. For me - bombing the retreating NLI (ooopps mujahidin) served the purpose.
Airspace was closed so the dickheads who couldn't differentiates between a friedly in the heat of conflict wont shoot down a civilian plane.

Calling out nuclear bluff is what indians say to themselves to sleep at night.
 
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check out the Pakistani map on the board specially the south eastern boundaries
 
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Airspace was closed so the dickheads who couldn't differentiates between a friedly in the heat of conflict wont shoot down a civilian plane.
Months of NOTAM and closure of air space ! Ofcourse in the heat of conflict but it tells you who was really spooked. Meanwhile Indian civie traffic continues as if nothing happened. It tells a lot to people who can infer.

Calling out nuclear bluff is what indians say to themselves to sleep at night.
Why comment when you cant contribute ?
 
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Funny how the shell shocked indians disappeared on the forum after swift retort. And then months later after being fed nazi level propaganda are back. Full of blind belief that they shot down an F16 even after being shown all the unfired missiles on the MiG21.

Goebbels would be proud.
 
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Suppose they killed 350 people in their airstrikes yet not one family came out on the streets about their loved ones? Not one family went out to the bombed out site to find their loved ones? Not one funeral prayer was held anywhere in Pakistan by the loved ones of 350 families (or should I go with 500 families?)! After every drone strike in the FATA, there were these funeral prayers even for the militants (because Muslim families don't give a damn about governments and their games) yet the earth swallowed these 350-500 as per the Indian narrative and their loved ones had no bother.

So good to see you around Blain. You, fatman, Muradk were some of posters that i used to follow. Anyways getting back to topic
with regards to people killed ! Indians do not know the names of casualties and as such Intelligence Agencies cant even verify. These are all expendable souls ! They might have very well had their funeral prayers - but it might have been passed of as a road accident. 200 - 300 road accidents across Pakistan on different days is not a difficult thing to pass of as. Anyways - these are conspiracy theories. The point - # of casualties cannot be established. Strategically Balakot raid achieved its objective.

To top that, the GoP hid these massive casualties because we are to believe it was scared of India. I keep on saying this repeatedly, had the Indian strikes done the damage, an Indian brigade HQ command along with possibly many members of the Indian regional command, who happened to be there perchance, would have been killed in response. There is absolutely no reason why Pakistan would have held back and not pressed home its attack. The PAF aircraft locked, targeted and without any pressure, executed the strike on the designated target sparing Indian lives as they were instructed to do simply because there was no blood shed on the Pakistan side.
PAF would have done nothing of that sort. PAF's only objective was to placate its domestic audience. It was serving and is still serving its primary master which is the Army. PAF and Army was under tremendous pressure to act to contain domestic feelings. After all PAK fazaia ka izzat ka sawal hain. So in all reality it cooked up the response. On the contrary the fact it did not bomb Indian command posts - goes to show that it was vary of Indian response. Alternative theory is that - It genuinely missed the targets due to the Mig 21's which suddenly came into the picture. One will never know

If we are to buy the logic that the amazing IAF thwarted Pakistani strikes, why would Pakistan not try again and just stop after the first "failed" attempt? Why would we not hit back after a week?
Reason is above. PAF achieved its objective. Objective was to make domestic audience think that it had evened the score and achieved parity. Thereby reducing the pressure and itself and the Army. Clearly it achieved the objective - so why should they press on !

The same goes for the silly F-16 claim. Using that very same logic, Pakistan has a pretty solid claim and ELINT for the IAF Su-30MKI kill.
Please publish the ELINT of IAF Su30 MKI kill. The only record is from Kaiser Tufail who was acted as an unofficial record keeper for PAF. There has not been a single official display of any radar images from PAF. Also further - Tufail himself edited his official record couple of times after it was pointed his fallacy behind crediting Su 30 MKI kill. IAF to its credit - never backed down from its story. It always maintained right from day 1 a consistent story. Whereas (thanks to talented Gafoor) there are so many versions to PAF story. I am not even sure where to start. Coming to think of it - you guys clearly value Mig 21 more since the pilot who shot down Mig21 received a higher award than the pilot Su 30 MKI pilot - ohh wait ! I forgot the second pilot received the award for imaginary kill

There are countless pictures of an Indian fighter, its wreckage, its pilot all over Pakistan yet not one photo of the F-16B or its "2" pilots, since its B as we are reminded, is with anyone. The ISI maybe good, but it's not that good to muzzle everything and everyone all over Pakistan and hide all content on social media. We are told it crashed in AK. The entire AK population was alert after the Balakot incident. Yet nobody saw the PAF jet crash.
ISI is actually quite good.

On top of that, not one person from this so called mob, that thrashed and killed the PAF pilot, was found and arrested. The locals are smart, they ask questions like "recite the kalma" or will ask the pilots to speak in the regional vernacular (Punjabi, Pashtu, Urdu etc.) yet we are told by the Indian side the mob just pounced upon the pilots and killed them in anger. Our pilots wear their name tags (with their muslim names) and their flying wings on their coveralls. The flying wing CLEARLY has the "chaand/sitara" emblazoned on it. Yet the crowd was blind to all this and just killed them because that is the narrative that seems to sooth the Indian mind.
Your points are illogical at best. You should perhaps read how operational pilots prepare for war time sorties. Its the same thing world over

It is silly and counter productive to have this back and forth but the idiocy of the claims also finds no limits.
At the end of the day, Indians can believe what they must. However they have nothing to show for either the strike doing any serious damage or the supposed shooting down of the PAF aircraft.
The bold part i agree. Other than radar images, ELINT, recorded conversations - Indians do not have anything to show for it. Like i said - Truth will come out. Two planes went down - Only one was IAF. It is such a sad state of affairs for a pilot who was martyred but never was recognized !

I am not even saying that it is not possible for the IAF to conduct strikes and inflict damage, as it has been done in the past wars. I expect Pakistan to take damage in the future as these are acts of wars and the same goes for India. But what happened in Feb. of last year, things did not go the way of the IAF.
Like you said discussions are counter productive. We both are going to stick to our interpretation of things. So lets hope for best.
 
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Thank you, Sir. I came back because of @fatman17's thoroughly enticing post on 1965; the man is really a class act. This enfuriating post caught my attention, and I'm afraid I simply lost my temper.



Thank you, chief.

Did you read that crap? Nearly blew a gasket.

time to generate a ignore list.
 
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But how to sift through a current set of problems (or benefits for that matter) perceptible on the ground and neatly package them as the result of sig (X1, X2, X3....Xn) in some precise way to actions of (A1, A2, A3...An)?

Very sophisticated, dear Sir, if you remember who the original sophists were.

Of course everything is interconnected; we need not fall back onto hoary old chestnuts from science fiction classics about the impossibility of changing a single event in the past without drastic, unpredictable effects on the present. The nice thing about arguing for this essential unity of all existence is, of course, the ability to declare ourselves guilt-free, and innocent of the impact of our actions. We can't be blamed; it is all tied up in everything else, and how do you know what accounts for which? I shot the sheriff; I knew no better, I had a socially deprived upbringing, pulling a Peacemaker was supposed to be cool, why blame me?

Not an unfamiliar argument, trust me. Only that smidgin less used than the classic, "Befehl ist Befehl."

Lot of the NBFC problems have their largest genesis in the UPA administration and its addiction to hot money + pushing this through for lending at all levels (instead of doing the wiser thing and instituting reforms and/or improving business parameters so such money can flow into cold capital)....combined with its over reliance on demand side gross subsidy transfer.

Of course, it was somebody else's fault.

"Wrecked among the poor, cash dependent classes".....explain to me how that happens (esp this far downstream in time) if ~ 99% of the money was returned?

Once you suck out the money and sequester it, is the restoration automatic and immediate? Remind this stupid old man about the time velocity of money, and how it is magically suspended for Chhappanincheswar.

If the corrupted sector of a hard disk amounts to just 1%, how would turning it off and on make a huge difference in its larger operation once the RPMs are whirring and the OS is loaded again?

Not the best analogy, is it, dear Sir? Let us remind ourselves - or, tell you what, you can do the reminding, and take the pulpit - of the difference in time scales between an electronic device and an economy. The same economy that declined to 4% of the world economy in 90 years - by some accounts, 190 years - from 25%, and has got nowhere those figures in a subsequent 70 years.

Again...(it is my opinion) the larger NBFC distress comes from actual structural leveraging stasis (by bad conduits on how this credit was made available and where it was deployed without proper referencing) and its cascade with time that is only now starting to bottom out. Demonetisation needs a proper larger time scale to monitor what the tax compliance numbers result in.

Of course. We must make these little sacrifices in the name of science and for the sake of completeness in demonstrating the effects of a radical change made. We cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs. I cannot help reminding you sardonically that Dr. Mengel might have used the identical arguments (please, that is not the equivalent of calling you Dr. Mengel; it is only a parallel being presented, perhaps with some added bitterness and some greater force).

The recent economic survey was quite good read. From the previous one before, was this little tid bit from (previous) Subbu about what I am going on about tax compliance:

https://www.financialexpress.com/bu...on-impact-narendra-modi-arun-jaitley/1034096/

This needs term 2 data...and also to gauge w.r.t the coming higher-expansionary cycle (i.e the more crucial overall tax revenue size) given the bottoming-out cycle has the multi-variable related slow-down at play when talking about its tax revenue decline (while ITRs+compliance increased).

Have you heard the (previous) Subbu in his post-Mengel phase? He sounds rather different.

So good to see you around Blain. You, fatman, Muradk were some of posters that i used to follow. Anyways getting back to topic
with regards to people killed ! Indians do not know the names of casualties and as such Intelligence Agencies cant even verify. These are all expendable souls ! They might have very well had their funeral prayers - but it might have been passed of as a road accident. 200 - 300 road accidents across Pakistan on different days is not a difficult thing to pass of as. Anyways - these are conspiracy theories. The point - # of casualties cannot be established. Strategically Balakot raid achieved its objective.


PAF would have done nothing of that sort. PAF's only objective was to placate its domestic audience. It was serving and is still serving its primary master which is the Army. PAF and Army was under tremendous pressure to act to contain domestic feelings. After all PAK fazaia ka izzat ka sawal hain. So in all reality it cooked up the response. On the contrary the fact it did not bomb Indian command posts - goes to show that it was vary of Indian response. Alternative theory is that - It genuinely missed the targets due to the Mig 21's which suddenly came into the picture. One will never know


Reason is above. PAF achieved its objective. Objective was to make domestic audience think that it had evened the score and achieved parity. Thereby reducing the pressure and itself and the Army. Clearly it achieved the objective - so why should they press on !


Please publish the ELINT of IAF Su30 MKI kill. The only record is from Kaiser Tufail who was acted as an unofficial record keeper for PAF. There has not been a single official display of any radar images from PAF. Also further - Tufail himself edited his official record couple of times after it was pointed his fallacy behind crediting Su 30 MKI kill. IAF to its credit - never backed down from its story. It always maintained right from day 1 a consistent story. Whereas (thanks to talented Gafoor) there are so many versions to PAF story. I am not even sure where to start. Coming to think of it - you guys clearly value Mig 21 more since the pilot who shot down Mig21 received a higher award than the pilot Su 30 MKI pilot - ohh wait ! I forgot the second pilot received the award for imaginary kill


ISI is actually quite good.


Your points are illogical at best. You should perhaps read how operational pilots prepare for war time sorties. Its the same thing world over


The bold part i agree. Other than radar images, ELINT, recorded conversations - Indians do not have anything to show for it. Like i said - Truth will come out. Two planes went down - Only one was IAF. It is such a sad state of affairs for a pilot who was martyred but never was recognized !


Like you said discussions are counter productive. We both are going to stick to our interpretation of things. So lets hope for best.

While I have my own views on this subject, I just wanted to say that you argued this particular point of view very well. I am here on this thread by accident, btw.

time to generate a ignore list.

LOL.

Yes, Sir.

It still stings a bit to include a fellow-Indian on it.
 
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Christian - who ? Is she a defence personal ? Shes a nobody ! If you want to keep on quoting random goras - be my guest.

Errr....she was invited specially by your warlords in place of Alan Warnes, you people were hoping that her anti-Pakistan sentiments will go a long way to peddle Indian lies but sadly for you creatures it all backfired and this random Goris words of wisdom certainly had a profound effect on all those present in the audience, for as soon as she disclosed that ''NO F-16 was shot down by India !!!....most of those present couldn't either digest it or saw through Indian lies and decided to leave.

Strategically IAF crossed nuclear rubbicon ! The entire Pakistani narrative that 'Humarein pass bum hain' - went for a toss. Now there is a space of conventional conflict and this suits Indian interests fine. This is the biggest take away for the policy guys and its implication is not lost on Pakistani establishment.
With regards to 350 Militants killed - your guess is as good as mine. But then airspace closure for more than 6 months (Indian air space was absolutely open for civilians) and taking 45 days to take foreign inspectors to a dummy site speaks for itself.
Nonsense, both countries fought a much bigger conflict in Kargil after becoming nuclear than this skirmish.
And if India really had the will, it would have fired off those missiles on 28th after realizing that the IAF has miserably failed.
As for Balakot, Lol....it's an established fact how India hides its casualties by depositing them into avalanches, accidents, and even suicides....and how does airspace closure even come into the equation....do enemy countries need others permission to violate others airspace.....damn....Sadam Hussein must have forgotten this ploy during the Gulf war.....and since you and others are now finding the courage to post here after a year, let me enlighten you....look at the image below, even if one was to believe the pathetic Indian version that the spice bombs imploded inside the buildings and somehow left those Tin sheds intact and standing, well, once the bomb explodes it incinerates everything in the room and also kicks up a lot of smoke and dust which can be seen rising from miles....something acutely missing in Balakot....unless you think India used eco-friendly bombs or no one around the area for miles had a basic camera phone.
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Incorrect. It came out within a couple of days that it was a case of fraticide. You see we have pesky reporters who do their job darn fine. So Indian public knew. Officially IAF concluded court of inquiry after the stipulated period.
Yea, one of those pesky reporters also clearly reported from his studios that an F-16 shot down an SU-30 but was quickly taken off air....all was done once the dust settled and elections were over....remember you folks live in the third world....and Justice Katju is an Indian.
You see our armed forces are not corporations ! They are not in it for plots and plum retirement postings. So unlike Pakistani armed forces - we are not in the business of parading operational pilots for questions. But having said that i am sure an interview will come out soon.
Oh since when have you people stepped on the Moral ladder....or maybe you suffer from memory lapse....you creatures wasted no time by splashing shooters of unarmed PN Atlantique on all the front pages or parading and interviewing Nachiketa in front of cameras...or every Prem, Preety, Patil coming out with cranes and even glorifying the female controller with written scripts but when it concerns the created weekend warrior....we are all high and mighty....

Kargil peaks ..pffff. Keep them. For me - bombing the retreating NLI (ooopps mujahidin) served the purpose.
Since only the Indian army is capable to place a cameraman behind every rock, boulder, and glacier to record every action like handing over bodies or burying enemy soldiers (I suppose no Indian soldiers died or their bodies not handed over...maybe PA doesn't have any cameras to record as such)....and since all the fighting took place on Indian side of LOC....so did IA run out of films to record the aftermath of these bombings or did PA just managed to evacuate those hundred of dead that India claims.....we are well into 2020....when will you ever leave your bubble.
 
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Errr....she was invited specially by your warlords in place of Alan Warnes, you people were hoping that her anti-Pakistan sentiments will go a long way to peddle Indian lies but sadly for you creatures it all backfired and this random Goris words of wisdom certainly had a profound effect on all those present in the audience, for as soon as she disclosed that ''NO F-16 was shot down by India !!!....most of those present couldn't either digest it or saw through Indian lies and decided to leave.
Windy - unlike you, i dont suffer from a colonial hangover. Shes a nobody and i see no reason to waste my time on her or on warnes comments. Let her be official spokesperson of armed forces and then we will talk.

Nonsense, both countries fought a much bigger conflict in Kargil after becoming nuclear than this skirmish.
And if India really had the will, it would have fired off those missiles on 28th after realizing that the IAF has miserably failed.
This shows your serious lack of understanding of history ! India fought kargil on its territory - it did not cross LOC to fight NLI on peaks. And the reason it did not cross LOC is because of Nuclear threat. Americans were paranoid about this. Also not crossing LOC enabled us to get some serious Diplomatic leverage. Perhaps you have forgotten Kargil events. Balakot is the first time after 71 where we officially went across LOC/IB.

As for Balakot, Lol....it's an established fact how India hides its casualties by depositing them into avalanches, accidents, and even suicides....and how does airspace closure even come into the equation....do enemy countries need others permission to violate others airspace.....damn....Sadam Hussein must have forgotten this ploy during the Gulf war.....and since you and others are now finding the courage to post here after a year, let me enlighten you....look at the image below, even if one was to believe the pathetic Indian version that the spice bombs imploded inside the buildings and somehow left those Tin sheds intact and standing, well, once the bomb explodes it incinerates everything in the room and also kicks up a lot of smoke and dust which can be seen rising from miles....something acutely missing in Balakot....unless you think India used eco-friendly bombs or no one around the area for miles had a basic camera phone.
Windy - this is so childish that i was thinking of ignoring it. Search for Syrian/Palestine videos on spice bombs and different kinds of spice bombs. Retrospectively (IN IAF chiefs words) - we should have flattened the building. Indian armed forces lag behind pakistani counterparts in one thing and thats 'Information warfare'; We dont even have a 'ISPR' kind of department.


Yea, one of those pesky reporters also clearly reported from his studios that an F-16 shot down an SU-30 but was quickly taken off air....all was done once the dust settled and elections were over....remember you folks live in the third world....and Justice Katju is an Indian.
Was taken down because he was incorrect ! Not even an iota of proof - No Radar images, no ELINT recordings. Only the threat of making it public but not done so.

Oh since when have you people stepped on the Moral ladder....or maybe you suffer from memory lapse....you creatures wasted no time by splashing shooters of unarmed PN Atlantique on all the front pages or parading and interviewing Nachiketa in front of cameras...or every Prem, Preety, Patil coming out with cranes and even glorifying the female controller with written scripts but when it concerns the created weekend warrior....we are all high and mighty....
What exactly is your point ? You are just jabbering. PAK armed forces is corporation. Its a business for them. Indian armed forces is not a business. The point is extremely straight forward. Its not about morality nonsense.

Since only the Indian army is capable to place a cameraman behind every rock, boulder, and glacier to record every action like handing over bodies or burying enemy soldiers (I suppose no Indian soldiers died or their bodies not handed over...maybe PA doesn't have any cameras to record as such)....and since all the fighting took place on Indian side of LOC....so did IA run out of films to record the aftermath of these bombings or did PA just managed to evacuate those hundred of dead that India claims.....we are well into 2020....when will you ever leave your bubble.
Windy - you are a gas bag man. You have never changed after all these years. Its a well documented fact - if you care to read. Anyways - you can choose to forget it. These are all painful memories for you guys - the dream of cutting of Kashmir never realized.
 
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Windy - unlike you, i dont suffer from a colonial hangover. Shes a nobody and i see no reason to waste my time on her or on warnes comments. Let her be official spokesperson of armed forces and then we will talk.


This shows your serious lack of understanding of history ! India fought kargil on its territory - it did not cross LOC to fight NLI on peaks. And the reason it did not cross LOC is because of Nuclear threat. Americans were paranoid about this. Also not crossing LOC enabled us to get some serious Diplomatic leverage. Perhaps you have forgotten Kargil events. Balakot is the first time after 71 where we officially went across LOC/IB.


Windy - this is so childish that i was thinking of ignoring it. Search for Syrian/Palestine videos on spice bombs and different kinds of spice bombs. Retrospectively (IN IAF chiefs words) - we should have flattened the building. Indian armed forces lag behind pakistani counterparts in one thing and thats 'Information warfare'; We dont even have a 'ISPR' kind of department.



Was taken down because he was incorrect ! Not even an iota of proof - No Radar images, no ELINT recordings. Only the threat of making it public but not done so.


What exactly is your point ? You are just jabbering. PAK armed forces is corporation. Its a business for them. Indian armed forces is not a business. The point is extremely straight forward. Its not about morality nonsense.


Windy - you are a gas bag man. You have never changed after all these years. Its a well documented fact - if you care to read. Anyways - you can choose to forget it. These are all painful memories for you guys - the dream of cutting of Kashmir never realized.

Lol. Gangu you come out of hiding and can’t back anything with facts. The very next morning international media was invited to scour the area you dropped ordinances and all damage you caused was a few trees and a crow. Satellite images before and after showed the same thing. The Pentagon confirmed all our F-16s are counted for and didn’t lose anything.

You people failed even launching a stand off weapon and come up with a stupid *** excuse of a weapon exploding inside a building but not leveling a building! Hell even the Israelis stayed quite and probably thought WTF. You shot your own heli down — the incompetence of your forces was on full display.

Do us all a favor and crawl back to the rock you came out of, trying to soft talk isn’t reinforcing your point — when neutral defense analysts blasted your nations performance as pathetic.

So stop acting half *** retarded unless you were gand banged by Coronavirus.
 
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Thank you, Sir. I came back because of @fatman17's thoroughly enticing post on 1965; the man is really a class act. This enfuriating post caught my attention, and I'm afraid I simply lost my temper.



Thank you, chief.

Did you read that crap? Nearly blew a gasket.
Thank you for bringing the thread into my knowledge, will surely go through it.
 
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Lol. Gangu you come out of hiding and can’t back anything with facts. The very next morning international media was invited to scour the area you dropped ordinances and all damage you caused was a few trees and a crow. Satellite images before and after showed the same thing. The Pentagon confirmed all our F-16s are counted for and didn’t lose anything.

You people failed even launching a stand off weapon and come up with a stupid *** excuse of a weapon exploding inside a building but not leveling a building! Hell even the Israelis stayed quite and probably thought WTF. You shot your own heli down — the incompetence of your forces was on full display.

Do us all a favor and crawl back to the rock you came out of, trying to soft talk isn’t reinforcing your point — when neutral defense analysts blasted your nations performance as pathetic.

So stop acting half *** retarded unless you were gand banged by Coronavirus.

Typical retarded post - but i guess that is expected when people are defensive.
 
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Months of NOTAM and closure of air space ! Ofcourse in the heat of conflict but it tells you who was really spooked. Meanwhile Indian civie traffic continues as if nothing happened. It tells a lot to
Months of closed airspace meant we were expecting retaliation. We gave IAF open field. But IAF wanted to hide behind civilan airliners. Is that whay are you implying.
 
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Typical retarded post - but i guess that is expected when people are defensive.

Can't back up what you say so you going with 1 liners now rodent.
When all international experts/analysts slapped your officials and their baseless story here we have you trying to defend the indefensible.

Please **** on outta here. Can't expect much from Indians if your Ex-Commanding in Chief is a moron as well.
 
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@anathema
Since we are discussing every thing except topic at hand. lets just get back to the topic ...tell me you agree with AVM Sinha in this interview?

it would be very creative & informative if you could explain & get into the details ...please tell me the operation at Balakot what is it called ? that is like Operation Safed Sagar or Operation Vijay...what was the name given to this operation strike on Balakot.

Next I wish you could get into nitty gritty of AVM sinha describing actual engagement.

Lets be construct the time line and engagement pattern of IAF aircraft
 
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