Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Wet Shirt Contest]

The main heading under Customization has details regarding

• Indian Weapons
• Requisite Thrust (an indication to the engine uprating)
• Indian Specific Training and Simulators
• High Altitude Customizations
• Hot Desert weather customizations
• Anti Corrosion /harsh weather customizations
• Others which are not told to me surely

The news report mentioned only one thing and in all probability rest pointers were not leaked.

Its a similar case for Spares for Euro 1.8 Bn which is impractical. rather it was Engg Support package + basic infra for base creation.

Can you explain the highlighted points in detail or point me towards some links, older threads etc, thankyou for your patience, goodday.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Lockeed Martin is not Professional so.

If professional project management means delivering in time, within cost,
then they have proven they are not.,
but it was not LM I was thinking of.

 

[Hellfire]

In nutshell, we should be ready to spend $40-50 Billion dollars on ~150(?) odd planes because we obviously are not intelligent enough to build even sheds for Phalcons. Good enough for me.

Not exactly. It has more to do with the disconnect between the user and the technology developer. The exclusivity of OFB and Defence PSUs has rendered a situation wherein the equipment we required yesterday is being conceptualised today. Since any equipment being inducted into armed forces takes around a decade to complete its induction, and in the process the process of modification is undertaken as per the dynamism of user requirements and feedbacks, the disconnect, coupled to administrative issues from release of funds to earmarking the defence PSU at times based on the trade unions demand (recall the strike by dockyard workers for giving construction of few vessels to private shipyards?), and other issues renders a situation wherein we have today been left with a grappling shortage in our equipment portfolio.

I can elucidate a number of reasons and give you examples (an absurd one being a strategic forces unit being denied funds for a boundary wall for its location as it is a 'new' raising and is 'ad-hoc', not having been regularised over the past few years!!), but some may be downright inappropriate for the public forums. And it shall be off topic in the thread. Let us just assume that the present state of the affairs has been over decades and not over a few months and steps to rectify the same are bing undertaken. But that shall take time. In the meanwhile the potential adversary is not waiting for us to catch up. We need to close the gap and keep it manageable till as such time that we have our MIC in order and performing.

Lets hope for the best. I can understand your frustrations. But the irony of things can be gauged from the fact that Kanpur manufactures the Kevlar that is exported for BP vests/jackets and used by western armies and we are yet to 'authorise' it to 100% troops. At present only 70% troops in CI grid authorised and that too is not available in authorised amounts!!!

 

[PARIKRAMA]

If I have to assume some figures for future MII. It can be simplified in a lucid manner.

Suppose assume it's 10 more squadrons each with say 20 crafts just for ease of computation

If I assume a similar with escalation and milestone loaded with weapons as well than its approx Euro 110Mn even though I should see a general reduction and targeted cost under Make in india is assumed in the range of 520-580cr with median of 540 crs. But still leta consider based on present deal numbers only for our sake.

So 200 air crafts is Euro 22Bn including g all weapons

10squad means. 5 bases so around Euro 0.7x5 = Euro 3.5 Bn

Even if suppose it's either 1Bn or even say full 10 bases it will be Euro 10Bn

Engg support in all other forms and if you consider all other packages add another 40 Mn per bird or Euro 8Bn

So ballpark figure does comes out to Euro 33.5Bn to Euro 40Bn

So @jha you have thought a descent figure.

In case suppose it's Su30MKI super config it will be say approx 10-20% cheaper owing to most costs already sunk and weapons and infra which would be more or less only in high economy of scales point of view. But what it actually negates is

1. CPFH cost where Rafale cost is$ 9.7K versus MKI according to IAF $12k and most generally it's more bcz some points are not added for MKI as per IAF differentiation of cost under different heads. Mirage as per IAF was just $3k. And all that are pasted here in this thread by me and by folks like @Vergennes and @Picdelamirand-oil . That's basically a straight forward saying of 20-40% saving over lifetime.
2. The engine durability and maintenance free nature and ease of repair due to modules actually help a lot in improving downtime issues.
3. Number of engines required over lifetime is much lesser in Rafales as compared to MKI
4. 200MKI need straight forward 400pilots and 100 spare bcz requirement is 1.25. imagining 100single and 100double seater its basically 125 and 250 pilots so total375 pilots. Training and reassigning additional 125pilots is a big challenge
5. The mission capabilities and especially AD ridden and EW environment based SEAD DEAD in low altitude ingress is very tough for MKI but not impossible whereas Rafale is designed for this from the very beginning.

In a way it's the additional abilities it brings in and how they help multiply the capabilities for our forces. Thus the whole thing.

Of course its IAF and IN who has to decide if what I just said has merits enough to look at this solution or not. And MOD to see if budgets creates issue's or this is a no problem owing to say Euro 3Bn average per year for 10-11 years.

@jha pls feel free to post here.. I do love all folks comments and views.. so pls don't ever hesitate.

 

[Spectre]

If I have to assume some figures for future MII. It can be simplified in a lucid manner.

Suppose assume it's 10 more squadrons each with say 20 crafts just for ease of computation

If I assume a similar with escalation and milestone loaded with weapons as well than its approx Euro 110Mn even though I should see a general reduction and targeted cost under Make in india is assumed in the range of 520-580cr with median of 540 crs. But still leta consider based on present deal numbers only for our sake.

So 200 air crafts is Euro 22Bn including g all weapons

10squad means. 5 bases so around Euro 0.7x5 = Euro 3.5 Bn

Even if suppose it's either 1Bn or even say full 10 bases it will be Euro 10Bn

Engg support in all other forms and if you consider all other packages add another 40 Mn per bird or Euro 8Bn

So ballpark figure does comes out to Euro 33.5Bn to Euro 40Bn

So @jha you have thought a descent figure.

In case suppose it's Su30MKI super config it will be say approx 10-20% cheaper owing to most costs already sunk and weapons and infra which would be more or less only in high economy of scales point of view. But what it actually negates is

1. CPFH cost where Rafale cost is$ 9.7K versus MKI according to IAF $12k and most generally it's more bcz some points are not added for MKI as per IAF differentiation of cost under different heads. Mirage as per IAF was just $3k. And all that are pasted here in this thread by me and by folks like @Vergennes and @Picdelamirand-oil . That's basically a straight forward saying of 20-40% saving over lifetime.
2. The engine durability and maintenance free nature and ease of repair due to modules actually help a lot in improving downtime issues.
3. Number of engines required over lifetime is much lesser in Rafales as compared to MKI
4. 200MKI need straight forward 400pilots and 100 spare bcz requirement is 1.25. imagining 100single and 100double seater its basically 125 and 250 pilots so total375 pilots. Training and reassigning additional 125pilots is a big challenge
5. The mission capabilities and especially AD ridden and EW environment based SEAD DEAD in low altitude ingress is very tough for MKI but not impossible whereas Rafale is designed for this from the very beginning.

In a way it's the additional abilities it brings in and how they help multiply the capabilities for our forces. Thus the whole thing.

Of course its IAF and IN who has to decide if what I just said has merits enough to look at this solution or not. And MOD to see if budgets creates issue's or this is a no problem owing to say Euro 3Bn average per year for 10-11 years.

@jha pls feel free to post here.. I do love all folks comments and views.. so pls don't ever hesitate.

@PARIKRAMA do you have expense break up for Base @ .75 B to 1 B per base.

I am really flummoxed as to why do they cost so much even on iterative basis. 1 Billion would get us almost half a squadron worth of new jets itself.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Can you explain the highlighted points in detail or point me towards some links, older threads etc, thankyou for your patience, goodday.

• Indian Weapons

• Requisite Thrust (an indication to the engine uprating)

• High Altitude Customizations

• Hot Desert weather customizations

• Anti Corrosion /harsh weather customizations

Indian weapons customization includes upfront payment and in future assimilating the Astra, Brahmos and a much longer ALCM. The option is AL Antiship role now done by Exocet as of now.

Requsite thrust is basically uprated engines but that's subject to engine being available which should be as per the plan.

The climate and environment customization is a specific need for high performance and no compromise in payload. The takeoff from short runway in high altitude compromises on mission payload and tenure unless certain specific changes are met. The higher thrust is basically interlinked with all this.

Corrosion parameter has come up a lot in old aircrafts owing to harsh rain, humid and sunlight. India as a country has 4 seasons clearly with I'll timing of adverse climate . So a specific point is to ensure such things don't happen or else repair and replacement etc is an add on cost. Which IAF wishes to reduce upfrontnowing to experience...

@PARIKRAMA do you have expense break up for Base @ .75 B to 1 B per base.

I am really flummoxed as to why do they cost so much even on iterative basis. 1 Billion would get us almost half a squadron worth of new jets itself.

No I don't have if @Picdelamirand-oil can give but now same standard will be built by Indian company either L&T or HCC or somebody else. But seems to be a hardened reinforced and other protection things. Some standard which is superior to present ones as far as what they said. Let me see if I can get some details.

 

[randomradio]

How about buying another another 100 MKIs in Super-30 config and integrate Meteor/Scalp/Brahmos-NG? Will not cost more than 12-15 Billion dollars.. Invest rest in Kaveri/AMCA programs ...?

I am not an expert like other members here. So, another 40 Billion does seem to be astronomical amount of money to spend on a foreign plane.

The Rafales are actually cheaper than the MKI.

The current MKI costs $70M per unit flyaway, and that's without adding the billions of dollars in upgrades just to match the Rafale in terms of tech. The Super Sukhoi should comfortably exceed $100M.

The Rafale should cost half that of the MKI in operations cost. For example, the Rafale doesn't need overhauls. The MKI needs 3 overhauls, costing $18M each. The Rafale's engine is rated for 8000 hours on a 7000 hour airframe, while the MKI's engine is rated for 2000 hours on a 6000 hour airframe, so we will need additional engines. All other spares have lower life than Rafale's spares.

Do you have a figure with you ? I am simply multiplying the current deal. Because MII will definitely cost more than current lot.

The cost of all 126 jets in MMRCA was Rs 90,000 Cr. That came to about $15B.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/04/india-could-also-buy-light-fighter-to.html
“We must remember that Rafale is a top-end, multi-role fighter… but it is quite expensive. When you talk of 126 aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore”, he said.

The GTG is going to be cheaper. Of course, if you add in all other costs, like running it over the next 40-50 years, upgrading them etc, it will cross your $40B mark. But that's spread out over the next 50 years.

 

[Taygibay]

This costs more than what dassault asked for changes to UAE requirements. Spending $4 billion of FGFA makes more sense,

Whoa, don't conflate the prices of the bases, changes and weaponry, mate!
Sometimes they do as in bases and maintenance, both important in the LCC
but the first is non-recurring. And sometimes the cost can be attributed to the
seller ( hiking margins to cover offsets or high adaptation costs to cover ToT )
but the origin of some of these demands ( as added weapons ) decides who pays.

(although it could be more I'm not sure @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil )

6,000 to 8,000 hours [ Service years numbers are from the political arena and useless. ]
Ms are shorter for ex. and any AC cell goes through its hours on a unitary basis anyhow.

Because MII will definitely cost more than current lot.

Strangely enough, not necessarily! Offsets and ToT already occurred for the 36, remember?
So that if even a small unit has been set up under GtoG deal say to service minimally those
90-some uprated M88, that will already exist and new funds from MII will expand or boost its
productivity. You don't pay anew for all of the ToT already gotten either, just license and so on.

Great week-end all, Tay.

 

[BON PLAN]

If profeesional project management means delivering in time, within cost,
then they have proven they are not.,
but it was not LM I was thinking of.

OK. So who ?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Source Based News

1. CCS /cabinet level go ahead on 21st September
2. French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian and a delegation will come on 23rd September to sign a IGA
3. President Franocis Hollande is coming to India in October when finally the formal contract will be signed.
4. Prez Hollande dates will be known in media within next couple of days
5. Expected to include some more goodies and a fruitful discussion on MII aspect
6. More or less whats in store seems to be this
   1. 36+18+36+18 - 108 (54 for IAF and 54 for IN later date - Merignac Line with 50% investment back to India)
   2. 2 times point 1 numbers in multiple tranches (5+) over MII line. ~200+
7. It is expected that IN all fleet for the initial Rafale M will be from Meriganc Line only.

• The Indian Navy order is expected at the almost end of first 36 delivery period so safely its beyond 2021-22
• The idea is to keep Meriganc line running by aiding orders as well as get quicker delivery schedule
• In return MII order will be done with full cooperation of French Government in order to ensure India's primary task of building fighters in India is met as well as critical transfer envisioned is completed to be used for all future Indian made jets.

Have a great weekend.
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[[Bregs]]

Lol @PARIKRAMA bro this source based news has kept its promise and now finally this multi role fighter Rafale is going to become mainstay of IAF for 3 decades taking lots of load of su30 mki which can now be upgraded to super sukhoi level

 

[dadeechi]

I wished GoI went for 126 + 63 option rather this tamaasha of 36

And they are still sticking to the date of 23rd Sep..

Clearly shows the inclinations of the people in power.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Lol @PARIKRAMA bro this source based news has kept its promise and now finally this multi role fighter Rafale is going to become mainstay of IAF for 3 decades taking lots of load of su30 mki which can now be upgraded to super sukhoi level

• One good thing is IAF even though may be portrayed as a devil for choosing Rafale will have a complete technical evaluation to back their choice.
• This has enabled lots of headroom and stone headed approach by IAF who understands why this jet is so important.
• Only an IAF pilot or an insider will talk about corrosion like point or even weather specific packages. In my earlier post i said about TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) as well as Sandy Desert Hot weather conditions.
• No doubt IAF has already drawn a strategy based on Rafales some good years ago and is actually pushing for it and with newer capabilities addition, they are even more determined.
• The relationship balance does not look bad at all
  • French Line Merignac - X order with 50% offset - 20% localisation 30% R&D type focused offsets
  • Indian MII Line - 2 X french Line Merignac order with the TOT absorption
• This to me is a very considerate proposition bcz no one will give us a hi end jet at peanuts price. Nor we can bargain something without being a bit balanced.
• A order of 54 each for IAF and IN actually keeps Rafale line open, generates more employment and boosts French economy and its citizens welfare.
• In return French side not only invests back but also will feel contended that Indian MII line does not undermine and kill their own industry or existence of a threat due to line being in India.
• A government cannot do everything for mere friendship unless and untill it sees some merit for its own country's welfare and commercial terms shows its benefiting for agreeing to any such deal.
• With the bigger order , its now a full chance to localise the 600 odd supply OEM/vendor in India as well as get the most critical part - Upgrading the metallurgy , technology and skillset to completely make Rafale from raw material stage.
• Add the indigenous Engine project and future upgrades.and access to most important parts like Spectra, Active and Passive Cancellation, capabilities under 5th Gen jet.
• All these are essentially the building blocks of AMCA and a future evolved version of LCA Light category , yes these are the ones which will finally become the mainstay of our fleet over time.

 

[[Bregs]]

• One good thing is IAF even though may be portrayed as a devil for choosing Rafale will have a complete technical evaluation to back their choice.
• This has enabled lots of headroom and stone headed approach by IAF who understands why this jet is so important.
• Only an IAF pilot or an insider will talk about corrosion like point or even weather specific packages. In my earlier post i said about TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) as well as Sandy Desert Hot weather conditions.
• No doubt IAF has already drawn a strategy based on Rafales some good years ago and is actually pushing for it and with newer capabilities addition, they are even more determined.
• The relationship balance does not look bad at all
  • French Line Merignac - X order with 50% offset - 20% localisation 30% R&D type focused offsets
  • Indian MII Line - 2 X french Line Merignac order with the TOT absorption
• This to me is a very considerate proposition bcz no one will give us a hi end jet at peanuts price. Nor we can bargain something without being a bit balanced.
• A order of 54 each for IAF and IN actually keeps Rafale line open, generates more employment and boosts French economy and its citizens welfare.
• In return French side not only invests back but also will feel contended that Indian MII line does not undermine and kill their own industry or existence of a threat due to line being in India.
• A government cannot do everything for mere friendship unless and untill it sees some merit for its own country's welfare and commercial terms shows its benefiting for agreeing to any such deal.
• With the bigger order , its now a full chance to localise the 600 odd supply OEM/vendor in India as well as get the most critical part - Upgrading the metallurgy , technology and skillset to completely make Rafale from raw material stage.
• Add the indigenous Engine project and future upgrades.and access to most important parts like Spectra, Active and Passive Cancellation, capabilities under 5th Gen jet.
• All these are essentially the building blocks of AMCA and a future evolved version of LCA Light category , yes these are the ones which will finally become the mainstay of our fleet over time.

you are bang right bro if technically the Rafale aircraft is explored and evaluated then its crystal clear that its going to cost you fortune and quiet right so as it brings with it hell lots of new capabilities, innovations making the war doctrine of IAF much more easier and credible

 

[jha]

• Add the indigenous Engine project and future upgrades.and access to most important parts like Spectra, Active and Passive Cancellation, capabilities under 5th Gen jet.
• All these are essentially the building blocks of AMCA and a future evolved version of LCA Light category , yes these are the ones which will finally become the mainstay of our fleet over time.

Spectra for AMCA ? Thats news...