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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Yes. It is almost certain that the balance 18 will be ordered. That's the standard way MoD places orders. It almost always executes the follow on contract.

But I personally doubt that more Rafales will be ordered after the 36+18. They will replace the Mirages on a more than 1:1 ratio while giving higher uptime than the Mirages.

36+18 is the deal we are signing. Don't know from where PARIKRAMA getting these source which even French ministry could deny. It's true India need more fighters like rafale for various reasons but how far we can spend is the real question. PARIKRAMA says we will buy atleast 200 rafale. But India already investing in 150+ FGFA, 150+ AMCA, 200+ Tejas MK2. I mean seriously we have sufficient funds? I doubt it. By far IN will go for another 40+ rafale for its INS Vishal which will enter service by 2030. That too if Americans have no problem with India not buying carrier jets from them as many inputs are made available from US carrier programs. If India gets new Vikrant 2 rafale should be modified for ski jump rather mig29 or mi35 cuts the cue. If IN buy super carrier proposed by Russians then don't make any mistakes it could be aimed with N FGFA and AMCA and Tejas MK2.

So these stupid so called source are really misleading and pathetic with these kind of claims. U dint even mentioned about another single engine fighter under make in India. At most IAF will operate around 36 (by2022) 18 more as follow on by 2025. By this time India will have very matured fleet of fifth generation FGFA, handsomely upgraded Super Su, AMCA with promising results.

I will also claim that this is what my so. Called source based news says. Because it's far far away from timeline and reality

I really wish we have 200 rafale along with 300 sukoi by 2030. If this happened them it's good. But it's not the plan in first place as claimed by many here. Wishing is one thing Saying it as source is another thing as it misleading
 
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Key points
Thanks @JanjaWeed for posting Sushant Singh's article









  • Key points are basically what has been said before here. Time and again the roles in SFC which with these crafts basically will become a full fledged 40+36 = 76 Jets with always available 30+32=62 at any point of time for operational convenience.
  • This also now enables to understand why there is an extra Logistics based performance and spare contract for Euro 353 Mn and a massive customization based on climatic conditions (which o course becomes common for all the craft thats purchased).
  • Indications are rest of the fleet standard availability may be restricted to 75% and external packages may not be signed
  • This saves almost Euro 10Mn approx per plane for 15% additional availability which we plan to improve via way of availability of parts and spares in our Rafale production ecosystem
  • Thus Prez Hollande coming for contract schedule gets the timeline from Sept end to Oct end to max Nov beginning. But its October as i posted above
  • I also said Q3/Q4 money will be released long back.
+++

@Spectre
I did leave a message to the people and what i am coming to know does not sound too good to me.
  • Presently not all and in fact most MKIs are not inside shelter.
  • In general most airbases are having open parking.
  • The shelters are mil standards of old erstwhile time which even a 1000 pound + bomb will destroy easily.
  • There is a parliamentary report on this as well as CAG pointers saying MKI does not even have a standard 2000 lb bomb proof shelter.
  • Government had replied that IAF had submitted a request for New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) which will enable it to be protected and yet weapons change, and loading + maintenance can be done from that shelter itself
  • This item is clubbed under The Modernisation of Airfield Infrastructure or MAFI and the present timeline for delivering around 30 such bases pan India is around 5+ years away.
  • But for that to succeed the request is pending for Rs 60,000 Crores or approx $9 Bn of grant for multiple years and per year about $1.5Bn or Rs10k Crores is used for the same.
  • Still there is a wide gap between actual required and approved implying terrible slow process of getting NGHAS bases.
  • Thus for MKI infrastructure new additional costs are there which of course is not told in public and in simple words, the fleet size numbers makes it justifiable.
  • These costs in todays era will escalate a fresh MKI at super config to more than double the cost and ballpark assessments is in the range of $250 Mn when other aspects of repairs, service, engine life, weather issues, availability upgrade, etc
  • In the words of the source, IAF has done 1:1 assessment submitted to MOD when asked about the comparative price of Rafale and MKI in a tabular form to have a clear understanding and it was proved and independently verified by MOD that Rafale packaged price came lower than MKI for a similar setup based packaged deal.
  • It was uptill this point DM MP negotiated to get a proper justification of financial part of the deal.
Now some quotes from 16th standing parliamentary committee
View attachment 335506

View attachment 335507
+++
Indian Express did an article last year on this
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...khoi-30-fighters-have-no-protective-shelters/

Quotes
The committee members were also informed by representatives of the MoD that the NGHAS “is a large project and it costs thousands of crores of rupees”. It was further informed that NGHAS are specialised structures and “are designed to save a Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft from direct hit of 2000 lbs bomb”.

The committee, which is headed by Major General BC Khanduri (retd) noted that it is extremely pertinent that no damage is caused to the available aircraft. It also said that while the New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) project is conceptualised for this purpose, nevertheless, the committee desired that there should not be any delay in execution, as such delays have become a common feature of all the projects.

In its recently tabled report on the manufacture of Sukhoi-30 MKI by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) too had pointed out certain anomalies with the aircraft due to it being parked in the open sun.

The CAG report had mentioned that a review of 42 cases of repairs undertaken by HAL in Sukhoi 30 MKI, up to March 2010, disclosed that fuel leakage was the main snag in 36 cases and complaints relating to leakage from fuel tank were reported by IAF immediately after delivery of the aircraft. The leakages had caused pre-mature withdrawal of the aircraft from active flying.

Among the reasons that that been attributed for the problem were that the Sukhoi-30 MKI had been “parked outside in hot conditions”. The HAL management had told CAG that the other reasons for leakages were operating the aircraft at higher ‘g’ levels, high manoeuvers and hard landings and aircraft parked without fuel for longer time. They had added that fuel leakages could not be fully excluded due to inherent design features of the aircraft.

+++

If you see the above report you will get two points in mind quickly
  1. The need of a NGHAS for our aircrafts
  2. Harsh Weather effects and other associated technical issues.
Thus, this implied IAF and MOD has learned some lessons and the results are seen in this deal as well like
  • Procurement of a Base meeting minimum NATO standard as well as in country NGHAS standard
  • Weather ill effects being clearly inputted in the initial contract signing itself.
  • Existing old bases non confirming to NGHAS does not enable repalcement of fighters by Rafales owing to size compatibility issue as well as Ageing of older structures
If you see the package details its covered here, these points were adequately covered
View attachment 335508
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-327#post-8688450

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@Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @randomradio @Armani @GuardianRED @R!CK https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/

Edited. I made a computational error in currency conversion 1 B USD is closer to 6500 crore not 60000 crore.

Thanks @PARIKRAMA
 
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Some folks asked PSK for 2 way link and HMDS

Also his view about Tellis and others proposing F16
upload_2016-9-18_12-5-15.png
 
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36+18 is the deal we are signing. Don't know from where PARIKRAMA getting these source which even French ministry could deny. It's true India need more fighters like rafale for various reasons but how far we can spend is the real question. PARIKRAMA says we will buy atleast 200 rafale. But India already investing in 150+ FGFA, 150+ AMCA, 200+ Tejas MK2. I mean seriously we have sufficient funds? I doubt it. By far IN will go for another 40+ rafale for its INS Vishal which will enter service by 2030. That too if Americans have no problem with India not buying carrier jets from them as many inputs are made available from US carrier programs. If India gets new Vikrant 2 rafale should be modified for ski jump rather mig29 or mi35 cuts the cue. If IN buy super carrier proposed by Russians then don't make any mistakes it could be aimed with N FGFA and AMCA and Tejas MK2.
I would concur.
I would also concede that @PARIKRAMA follows this topic much more closely than I and it is therefore inevitable that he would know more.

But I also have to say that I find these projections absolutely incorrect. I doubt even a single plane after 36 + 18 will be ordered.

Though I utterly despise that GoI is going for the 36+18 route in the first place. After such extensive and exhaustive evaluation and negotiations, GoI should order 54 planes from the start. Its not as if there is anything that needs to be left to test by way of having Rafale's in IAF colors before their performance becomes known and more orders are made.
 
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36+18 is the deal we are signing. Don't know from where PARIKRAMA getting these source which even French ministry could deny. It's true India need more fighters like rafale for various reasons but how far we can spend is the real question. PARIKRAMA says we will buy atleast 200 rafale. But India already investing in 150+ FGFA, 150+ AMCA, 200+ Tejas MK2. I mean seriously we have sufficient funds? I doubt it. By far IN will go for another 40+ rafale for its INS Vishal which will enter service by 2030. That too if Americans have no problem with India not buying carrier jets from them as many inputs are made available from US carrier programs. If India gets new Vikrant 2 rafale should be modified for ski jump rather mig29 or mi35 cuts the cue. If IN buy super carrier proposed by Russians then don't make any mistakes it could be aimed with N FGFA and AMCA and Tejas MK2.

So these stupid so called source are really misleading and pathetic with these kind of claims. U dint even mentioned about another single engine fighter under make in India. At most IAF will operate around 36 (by2022) 18 more as follow on by 2025. By this time India will have very matured fleet of fifth generation FGFA, handsomely upgraded Super Su, AMCA with promising results.

I will also claim that this is what my so. Called source based news says. Because it's far far away from timeline and reality

I really wish we have 200 rafale along with 300 sukoi by 2030. If this happened them it's good. But it's not the plan in first place as claimed by many here. Wishing is one thing Saying it as source is another thing as it misleading

I would point only few things.
  • India has actually asked for 127 FGFA jets with an option to review and downsize it further with minimum requirement at 65. So ballpark figure is anything between 65-127 or more like max 7 squadrons.
  • AMCA no commitments have been made as of now. Assessment will be subject to aircraft actually on ground. The scope is of course very different and can cover anything under the medium role category and mission specs wise.
  • India again has not committed for Tejas MK2 200 numbers. How will they committ when IAF themselves have not committed for MK2 version as of now. MK2 as of now is Naval version pegged at 40 order request that also not officially approved bcz the naval version has not yet cleared basic tests.
  • In fact there is an absolute sad state of affairs as i had pointed here before DM MP had asked folks in review meet about everything including MK2 production and design schedule. They (HAL, ADA , others) asked for a 1 year time to study and reply in a "report". DM MP was visibility pissed with this attitude. Thats the shambolic state of MK2 project as of today.
  • Secondly, IN will never ever go for Naval FGFA unless its shoved to their throat along with a 85K Shtorm carrier . Naval PAKFA itself requires funding to complete the work so unless we sign up and pay for it , it wont be coming.
  • Mig29K agreed bcz we already have it but IN does not see a future of it in long term. We got it as part of Baku/Vikramaditya deal when we did nt have a choice. Again Mig35 is not a standard choice of IN as of now.
  • If USA does put restrictions they will sell F35s not even F18s. But then it wont be Shtorm but an indigenous design ACC.
  • And AMCA wont be coming so soon. We would be lucky if we test a proper prototype with proper technologies by 2030. A bare naked aircraft means nothing for us. The 5th Gen technological needs wont be available off the shelf and with just limited fleet buy we wont get anything from other places as well.
 
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Behind Rafale deal: Their ‘strategic’ role in delivery of nuclear weapons


http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-role-in-delivery-of-nuclear-weapons-3036852/


rafale-759.jpg



WITH INDIA and France expected to announce the Inter-Government Agreement (IGA) for Rafale fighter jets in the next few days, the clinching factor behind Delhi deciding to buy even only 36 French aircraft has become clearer. The long-delayed deal is being finalised because India has identified the French fighters for their ‘strategic’ role — to deliver nuclear weapons.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) currently has 32 fighter squadrons against an authorisation of 42, and many of them, particularly the MiGs, are reaching the end of their service in this decade. Thirty-six Rafales, to be inducted between 2019 and 2023, will make for only two squadrons. This still leaves a huge gap, to be filled by either the indigenous Tejas fighters, or another foreign fighter such as the Swedish Gripen or the American F-16, both of which have offered to ‘Make in India’.

Although there is a follow-up clause in the IGA for buying an additional 18 Rafales, the numbers still fall short of the 126 Rafales India had originally planned to buy under the previous UPA government.

According to officials who spoke to The Sunday Express on condition of anonymity, the deciding factor in buying the Rafales, even in such small numbers, was its ability “to be used as an airborne strategic delivery system”. In other words, Rafale is expected to be the chosen fighter plane for the delivery of nuclear weapons in a strike role.

“The French Air Force, Armee de l’ Air, is shifting from Mirages to Rafales for its nuclear strike role this year
. They have already started the process, and although our nuclear delivery systems are different from theirs, it does tell us that Rafale is suited for that task,” said a defence official.

“The French Mirage-2000s have been modified for the delivery of our strategic arsenal. France has continued to provide maintenance, spares and technical support for these Mirages, which may not have been the case with some other foreign countries. We expect the same degree of cooperation from France when we modify and use the Rafales for that role,” said another official.

At present, IAF is supposed to use modified Mirage-2000 fighters in a nuclear strike role. But these upgraded Mirages are scheduled to be phased out of service from 2030 onwards. According to officials, a replacement for them would be needed, and India’s comfort with Paris on these matters makes it logical to go with Rafales for this critical task.

Meanwhile, sources have confirmed that India has extended an invite to the French defence minister, Jean Yves Le Drian, to visit Delhi next week. Although a formal confirmation from Paris was not received till Friday, the two sides are expected to announce the signing of an IGA for 36 Rafales next week.

Following a Cabinet Committee on Security approval, a contract, if things go as per schedule, should be signed within 45 days. An advance of 10-15 per cent of total contract value is expected to be paid to the French government at the signing of the contract.

During his visit to Paris last April, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters in a government-to-government deal with France. This followed a decade-long process of trials and selection of Rafales for the 126 Medium Multi Range Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, which could not be concluded. The MMRCA tender was formally withdrawn by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar later last year.

India and France underwent a series of negotiations over the price of the 36 fighters, and the two sides agreed to a final price of about Euro 7.87 billion a few weeks ago. Although all the fighters will be made in France, Rafale will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal as offsets in India. The delivery of the first fighter aircraft is scheduled for 2019.
 
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I would point only few things.
  • India has actually asked for 127 FGFA jets with an option to review and downsize it further with minimum requirement at 65. So ballpark figure is anything between 65-127 or more like max 7 squadrons.
  • AMCA no commitments have been made as of now. Assessment will be subject to aircraft actually on ground. The scope is of course very different and can cover anything under the medium role category and mission specs wise.
  • India again has not committed for Tejas MK2 200 numbers. How will they committ when IAF themselves have not committed for MK2 version as of now. MK2 as of now is Naval version pegged at 40 order request that also not officially approved bcz the naval version has not yet cleared basic tests.
  • In fact there is an absolute sad state of affairs as i had pointed here before DM MP had asked folks in review meet about everything including MK2 production and design schedule. They (HAL, ADA , others) asked for a 1 year time to study and reply in a "report". DM MP was visibility pissed with this attitude. Thats the shambolic state of MK2 project as of today.
  • Secondly, IN will never ever go for Naval FGFA unless its shoved to their throat along with a 85K Shtorm carrier . Naval PAKFA itself requires funding to complete the work so unless we sign up and pay for it , it wont be coming.
  • Mig29K agreed bcz we already have it but IN does not see a future of it in long term. We got it as part of Baku/Vikramaditya deal when we did nt have a choice. Again Mig35 is not a standard choice of IN as of now.
  • If USA does put restrictions they will sell F35s not even F18s. But then it wont be Shtorm but an indigenous design ACC.
  • And AMCA wont be coming so soon. We would be lucky if we test a proper prototype with proper technologies by 2030. A bare naked aircraft means nothing for us. The 5th Gen technological needs wont be available off the shelf and with just limited fleet buy we wont get anything from other places as well.

So when did India committed 200 rafale? I like to know. And FGFA is our own program than that of rafale. 127 was old news. Thinks have moved pretty well in the last couple of weeks. AMCA and Tejas are concerned there is no need of commitments. Either way they will be inducted in large numbers.

Kindly point out India committing to 200 rafale.
 
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So when did India committed 200 rafale? I like to know. And FGFA is our own program than that of rafale. 127 was old news. Thinks have moved pretty well in the last couple of weeks. AMCA and Tejas are concerned there is no need of commitments. Either way they will be inducted in large numbers.

Kindly point out India committing to 200 rafale.

As i said Rafale commitments are two prong in IGA
  1. One is a pure commitment of only off the shelf purchase in lieu of 16 technologies and the critical offset investments
  2. The other is the standard set of conditions under which an MII line will be announced for Rafale . It is this part where a an assessment and a tier wise localisation % is defined for a fleet and numbers including cost.
Pls note
India can still opt out of Point 2 without incurring any financial loss at any point of time for a specific numbers of flyaway /off the self deals. There are some pre conditions towards MII commitments.. That specific is not 54 jets.. This is for the pure technologies shared aspect.
The standard set of conditions involves a simple line stating Indian MII line will have orders which will be minimum 2 times ordered from the off the shelf route.

Again Contract exit clauses are there to ensure we might look at better options if available.

About FGFA i would wait for the Indo Russian summit as well as when the 3 protos are actually handed to HAL for MKIsation in future. Bcz whatever i say now wont make sense at all. So its same for AMCA as well as LCA Mk2 case I will let the reports come out naturally.
 
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I would point only few things.
  • India has actually asked for 127 FGFA jets with an option to review and downsize it further with minimum requirement at 65. So ballpark figure is anything between 65-127 or more like max 7 squadrons.

  • And why is that that we will stop with just 7 squadron when production will be available in India? That too Ur source said it will be around 65 - 127? We are investigating over 3.5 billion dollars in just developing this fighter.
AMCA no commitments have been made as of now. Assessment will be subject to aircraft actually on ground. The scope is of course very different and can cover anything under the medium role category and mission specs wise.
Looks like Ur source diminished any possibility for AMCA development. As we will develop and then drop if we can buy better AMCA on actual ground?

  • India again has not committed for Tejas MK2 200 numbers. How will they committ when IAF themselves have not committed for MK2 version as of now. MK2 as of now is Naval version pegged at 40 order request that also not officially approved bcz the naval version has not yet cleared basic tests.
  • In fact there is an absolute sad state of affairs as i had pointed here before DM MP had asked folks in review meet about everything including MK2 production and design schedule. They (HAL, ADA , others) asked for a 1 year time to study and reply in a "report". DM MP was visibility pissed with this attitude. Thats the shambolic state of MK2 project as of today.
  • As of now MK2 been developed for N Tejas. Before Airforce was also on board they wanted MK2 instead of MK1. But now MP made some progress with MK1A configuration IAF ACCEPTED Tejas and committed for 80 more in MK1A configuration. It doesn't mean IAF won't buy or get involved in Airforce variant of MK2. Kindly inform your source that it's just common sense.
  • Secondly, IN will never ever go for Naval FGFA unless its shoved to their throat along with a 85K Shtorm carrier . Naval PAKFA itself requires funding to complete the work so unless we sign up and pay for it , it wont be coming.
  • Are you sure? It's like Russia will arm twist India to buy AC even if we don't need? That what you saying? I beg to differ. Indian Navy has plans to operate or plan to build 5 AC by year 2030 . 1 viki, 2 vikrant class, 1 from us and another from Russia. . 3 different AC programs about to start. Vikrant about to enter service by 2018, Vishal is reality with US technology. Russia also offered its version of Super carrier with FGFA and flat deck. What Russians are offering is a super carrier more or less similar to Nimitz. Why could India won't be willing to operate Made in India fighter N FGFA. .. Mig29 are what we can get for best price and capability as of now and in the past. That's because it was part of the deal we signed with Russians. They give us their AC for free and we buy their aircraft and support systems and service charge. It's not that Mig29 was the best carrier fighter so chose it.
  • Mig29K agreed bcz we already have it but IN does not see a future of it in long term. We got it as part of Baku/Vikramaditya deal when we did nt have a choice. Again Mig35 is not a standard choice of IN as of now.
Poor Indian Navy guys. Pardon them for their poor vision for future. You and Ur source should teach them some basic tips on future vision.

If USA does put restrictions they will sell F35s not even F18s. But then it wont be Shtorm but an indigenous design ACC.
dude F35 won't be coming without strings attached on sensitive parts. But we can have Israeli version of F35 with Israeli systems replacing US equipment. And no one will ask to produce in India for just 30 fighter jet deals.

Don't go over board by closing door on f18s. As of now even Mod and US is confused on selecting between F16/18/gripin. But you already given the verdict like astrologer.

And AMCA wont be coming so soon. We would be lucky if we test a proper prototype with proper technologies by 2030. A bare naked aircraft means nothing for us. The 5th Gen technological needs wont be available off the shelf and with just limited fleet buy we wont get anything from other places as well.

Are u on drugs? You believe or Ur source said or some angel from Ur dream said decent AMCA prototype will fly only by 2030? What is fifth generation technology that India won't master it before 2020?

Break it up for me. 1)Engine - obviously American or French or Kaveri with super cruise

2)Avionics - which we could consider develop with Russia, Israel or even good part of it in India

3)Structure and paint for stealth...

These are to name a few and u think AMCA prototype will be out only by 2030. ? Yes unless you add anti gravitation technology like UFO. AMCA is our dark horse buddy. All efforts are made to fast tract Tejas MK1A. So resources and manpower can be increased on AMCA front. . . Tejas MK2 will have its own phase of development as airforce need are met with MK1A. Navy well off with migs till 2022 or so.

I bet by 2030 India will have matured fleet of AMCA in very large numbers.
 
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As i said Rafale commitments are two prong in IGA
  1. One is a pure commitment of only off the shelf purchase in lieu of 16 technologies and the critical offset investments
  2. The other is the standard set of conditions under which an MII line will be announced for Rafale . It is this part where a an assessment and a tier wise localisation % is defined for a fleet and numbers including cost.
Pls note
India can still opt out of Point 2 without incurring any financial loss at any point of time for a specific numbers of flyaway /off the self deals. There are some pre conditions towards MII commitments.. That specific is not 54 jets.. This is for the pure technologies shared aspect.
The standard set of conditions involves a simple line stating Indian MII line will have orders which will be minimum 2 times ordered from the off the shelf route.

Again Contract exit clauses are there to ensure we might look at better options if available.

About FGFA i would wait for the Indo Russian summit as well as when the 3 protos are actually handed to HAL for MKIsation in future. Bcz whatever i say now wont make sense at all. So its same for AMCA as well as LCA Mk2 case I will let the reports come out naturally.

My brother kindly go through my previous post. You are far from reality. Calm down and come down to earth and spell the reality
 
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Source Based News
  1. CCS /cabinet level go ahead on 21st September
  2. French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian and a delegation will come on 23rd September to sign a IGA
  3. President Franocis Hollande is coming to India in October when finally the formal contract will be signed.
  4. Prez Hollande dates will be known in media within next couple of days
  5. Expected to include some more goodies and a fruitful discussion on MII aspect
  6. More or less whats in store seems to be this
    1. 36+18+36+18 - 108 (54 for IAF and 54 for IN later date - Merignac Line with 50% investment back to India)
    2. 2 times point 1 numbers in multiple tranches (5+) over MII line. ~200+
  7. It is expected that IN all fleet for the initial Rafale M will be from Meriganc Line only.

  • The Indian Navy order is expected at the almost end of first 36 delivery period so safely its beyond 2021-22
  • The idea is to keep Meriganc line running by aiding orders as well as get quicker delivery schedule
  • In return MII order will be done with full cooperation of French Government in order to ensure India's primary task of building fighters in India is met as well as critical transfer envisioned is completed to be used for all future Indian made jets.
Have a great weekend.
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Why not making Rafale M in MII ? It will be a nice news for Mérignac, but it's strange. The commonality between the différent models of Rafale is extremly high, appart the under carriage.

A order of 54 each for IAF and IN actually keeps Rafale line open, generates more employment and boosts French economy and its citizens welfare.
Thanks, but french economy doesn't depend on Rafale orders. GDP of France is 2200 euros billions....
Even if I'm a old Rafale supporter, Airbus is a far more french GDP contributor.
 
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So one thing that really fascinates me is the absence of any plans for the 5th generation plane for France. Now given M88 full potential in a dual configuration it can give an equal footing to the single engine F35 or the High mass J20 dual engine plane "Only taking about 5th generation engine specs nothing else"

That means if big modifications for RCS reduction and bays are integrated the Rafale can become a headache for any such fighter. Lets not forget this plane does stick with some of the points that goes into making a 5th Gen fighter "From Integration to data link/share"
 
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Key points
Thanks @JanjaWeed for posting Sushant Singh's article









  • Key points are basically what has been said before here. Time and again the roles in SFC which with these crafts basically will become a full fledged 40+36 = 76 Jets with always available 30+32=62 at any point of time for operational convenience.
  • This also now enables to understand why there is an extra Logistics based performance and spare contract for Euro 353 Mn and a massive customization based on climatic conditions (which o course becomes common for all the craft thats purchased).
  • Indications are rest of the fleet standard availability may be restricted to 75% and external packages may not be signed
  • This saves almost Euro 10Mn approx per plane for 15% additional availability which we plan to improve via way of availability of parts and spares in our Rafale production ecosystem
  • Thus Prez Hollande coming for contract schedule gets the timeline from Sept end to Oct end to max Nov beginning. But its October as i posted above
  • I also said Q3/Q4 money will be released long back.
+++

@Spectre
I did leave a message to the people and what i am coming to know does not sound too good to me.
  • Presently not all and in fact most MKIs are not inside shelter.
  • In general most airbases are having open parking.
  • The shelters are mil standards of old erstwhile time which even a 1000 pound + bomb will destroy easily.
  • There is a parliamentary report on this as well as CAG pointers saying MKI does not even have a standard 2000 lb bomb proof shelter.
  • Government had replied that IAF had submitted a request for New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) which will enable it to be protected and yet weapons change, and loading + maintenance can be done from that shelter itself
  • This item is clubbed under The Modernisation of Airfield Infrastructure or MAFI and the present timeline for delivering around 30 such bases pan India is around 5+ years away.
  • But for that to succeed the request is pending for Rs 60,000 Crores or approx $9 Bn of grant for multiple years and per year about $1.5Bn or Rs10k Crores is used for the same.
  • Still there is a wide gap between actual required and approved implying terrible slow process of getting NGHAS bases.
  • Thus for MKI infrastructure new additional costs are there which of course is not told in public and in simple words, the fleet size numbers makes it justifiable.
  • These costs in todays era will escalate a fresh MKI at super config to more than double the cost and ballpark assessments is in the range of $250 Mn when other aspects of repairs, service, engine life, weather issues, availability upgrade, etc
  • In the words of the source, IAF has done 1:1 assessment submitted to MOD when asked about the comparative price of Rafale and MKI in a tabular form to have a clear understanding and it was proved and independently verified by MOD that Rafale packaged price came lower than MKI for a similar setup based packaged deal.
  • It was uptill this point DM MP negotiated to get a proper justification of financial part of the deal.
Now some quotes from 16th standing parliamentary committee
View attachment 335506

View attachment 335507
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Indian Express did an article last year on this
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...khoi-30-fighters-have-no-protective-shelters/

Quotes
The committee members were also informed by representatives of the MoD that the NGHAS “is a large project and it costs thousands of crores of rupees”. It was further informed that NGHAS are specialised structures and “are designed to save a Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft from direct hit of 2000 lbs bomb”.

The committee, which is headed by Major General BC Khanduri (retd) noted that it is extremely pertinent that no damage is caused to the available aircraft. It also said that while the New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) project is conceptualised for this purpose, nevertheless, the committee desired that there should not be any delay in execution, as such delays have become a common feature of all the projects.

In its recently tabled report on the manufacture of Sukhoi-30 MKI by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) too had pointed out certain anomalies with the aircraft due to it being parked in the open sun.

The CAG report had mentioned that a review of 42 cases of repairs undertaken by HAL in Sukhoi 30 MKI, up to March 2010, disclosed that fuel leakage was the main snag in 36 cases and complaints relating to leakage from fuel tank were reported by IAF immediately after delivery of the aircraft. The leakages had caused pre-mature withdrawal of the aircraft from active flying.

Among the reasons that that been attributed for the problem were that the Sukhoi-30 MKI had been “parked outside in hot conditions”. The HAL management had told CAG that the other reasons for leakages were operating the aircraft at higher ‘g’ levels, high manoeuvers and hard landings and aircraft parked without fuel for longer time. They had added that fuel leakages could not be fully excluded due to inherent design features of the aircraft.

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If you see the above report you will get two points in mind quickly
  1. The need of a NGHAS for our aircrafts
  2. Harsh Weather effects and other associated technical issues.
Thus, this implied IAF and MOD has learned some lessons and the results are seen in this deal as well like
  • Procurement of a Base meeting minimum NATO standard as well as in country NGHAS standard
  • Weather ill effects being clearly inputted in the initial contract signing itself.
  • Existing old bases non confirming to NGHAS does not enable repalcement of fighters by Rafales owing to size compatibility issue as well as Ageing of older structures
If you see the package details its covered here, these points were adequately covered
View attachment 335508
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-327#post-8688450

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@Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @randomradio @Armani @GuardianRED @R!CK https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/
About corrosion : ALL Rafale, and not only the M variant, are protected in the same manner as the M variant. See quite all Charles de Gaulle carrier pics : you see Rafale parked outside, in the sealed air ambiance.
 
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Why not making Rafale M in MII ? It will be a nice news for Mérignac, but it's strange. The commonality between the différent models of Rafale is extremly high, appart the under carriage.

Need of a priority order.
On Dec 06, 2018 IAC 1 is suppose to be handed over for trials. Thats Indian navy Day and that is the timeline for the ship unless delayed. Once handed over 2 years easily for all extensive tests owing to indigenous project and initial teething hiccup issues.

Thats when the priority order for a immediate air wing delivery may be planned in case Mig29Ks numbers are not increased for operating in the carrier. Thus IN initial order might not be for IAC2 Vishal (which will come at a later stage) but for IAC-1 owing to limited Mig 29ks being available for deployment.

Unless we order and take just say 16 Mig 29K (sqd 303 has 16 jets) in each carrier and wait for LCA Naval variant to come and become part of this ACC at a later stage which of course means air arm of each carrier is severely limited and operational availability dimensions further cripples the wing numbers to single digits in each carrier.

Even though i said 2021 when IN may order they may order earlier as well bcz if order is to be executed on priority, its possible only via Merignac line. Indian line as and when it will come will have IAF orders first as priority for meeting its operational needs...

If we see that a new batch of Mig 29K are being ordered in this year summit or say next year summit then yes we might as well build the Rafale M order (if not priority) in India itself.


Thanks, but french economy doesn't depend on Rafale orders. GDP of France is 2200 euros billions....
Even if I'm a old Rafale supporter, Airbus is a far more french GDP contributor.
I did not touch Airbus bcz thats in a different ball game all together.

In general if i understand and point out French folks somewhere has a image that Prez Hollande succumbs to external pressures be it USA or even India. Its not that i am not aware of the section within France who said its a sell out deal and against France at this juncture itself.
Their pov can be summed like this
  • "our money, our jobs, our economy and i share a part of my salary to India bcz we agree to sell gusts to India"
  • "our prez could not even stop such basic things."
  • "why should we give technology to Inde and even pay them from our earnings"
These are based out of what i could discuss and find. Its similar to our own country view Why not MKI, why Not LCA, why not keep money in india only of arguments but then tehy instantly catch attention and gullible masses agree to this POV. Right or wrong such POV always are an issue and a concern for any government be it India or France.

Imagine a situation when a line under MII is say formally unveiled. This is precisely why a line in India needs to make sure Meriganc line is not isolated. there are potential export order execution from Indian line as well. Such orders when executed from Indian line only will increase more complex issues. Thus, its precisely necessary that such a big deal takes care of certain other aspects as well and be considerate to both sides in order to arrive at a win win situation
 
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So one thing that really fascinates me is the absence of any plans for the 5th generation plane for France. Now given M88 full potential in a dual configuration it can give an equal footing to the single engine F35 or the High mass J20 dual engine plane "Only taking about 5th generation engine specs nothing else"

That means if big modifications for RCS reduction and bays are integrated the Rafale can become a headache for any such fighter. Lets not forget this plane does stick with some of the points that goes into making a 5th Gen fighter "From Integration to data link/share"
In this case, we can mixed a potential "Super Rafale" and the AMCA project.

Same aerodynamic config than Rafale : Delta closed canard and semi ventral air intakes.
Cone nose and air intakes diamond shaped
2x10tons engine.
Internal bay for AtoA missile or a mix of few AtoA and AtoG weapons.
Front and side looking AESA antennae.
No vertical fin thanks to Dassault master class FBW know how.

....
 
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