BON PLAN
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2016
- Messages
- 1,767
- Reaction score
- -6
- Country
- Location
Lockeed Martin is not Professional so.A world where professional project management ensures products can be delivered on time...
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Lockeed Martin is not Professional so.A world where professional project management ensures products can be delivered on time...
I like the 60 Km+ No escape zone of meteor.
other than that, the SCALP seems to have a longer range than the Brahmos?
Lets not buy it .. now what are the options?
Again, the figures here are all made up we cannot know for sure nor can anyone be clear what India is actually getting for the vast sums ( strategic tech will be coming as per the confidential IGA). Having said that, we DO know that Dassualt will invest 50% back into India so every other dollar is coming back to India and will go to highly advantageous areas (engine, ecosystem etc) so it makes no sense to consider this purely as an import with all the money outgoing.
In today's age top end tech is VERY expensive but that is the cost for quality, in the end India is one of the lowest defence spenders (as a proportion of GDP) in the world and it will spend many times its defence budget on infrastructure, healthcare, education, welfare etc etc.
The cost is justified to safeguard the very idea of India let alone it's 1.25++ BILLION citizens.
You pay peanuts you get monkeys.
I get that, but do we have to pay these kind of amount every time we integrate something new ?And Agent47, any modification from new bomb to HCMS requires a lot of high pay
grade man-hours to test all combinations. This part called integration is needed for
safety. If india decided it wanted one modif, the price would be low. 5 cost more. etc
For the moment nobody know what will be the cost of UAE configuration. From what @PARIKRAMA said, it seems that you have choosen to get a very high level of availability whatever are the condition, Hot, high altitude, sand... So you need some special approach.I get that, but do we have to pay these kind of amount every time we integrate something new ?
I don't see we integrating Astra or any other pro indian weapons for such a small order. Lightning,HMDS maybe spice thats it. @PARIKRAMA mentioned modifications for 'harsh climate conditions', Why do we pay for that kind of stuff? So that you can sell this modified planes to 'hot and cold' countries like UAE? This costs more than what dassault asked for changes to UAE requirements. Spending $4 billion of FGFA makes more sense, atleast we get some IPs and experience.
@BON PLAN @Picdelamirand-oil
For the moment nobody know what will be the cost of UAE configuration. From what @PARIKRAMA said, it seems that you have choosen to get a very high level of availability whatever are the condition, Hot, high altitude, sand... So you need some special approach.
The whole upgrade to F3R standard cost €1 billion and we pay $1.7 billion for hot/high + lightning + HMDS ?!On Dec. 30, France launched a program worth some €1 billion (US $1.06 billion) to upgrade the Rafale F3 to the F3R standard by 2018. The new version will fire the MBDA Meteor long-range air-to-air missile, a laser version of the Sagem Armement Air Sol Modulaire powered smart bomb, and carry a Thales new-generation laser targeting pod, dubbed Talios, to succeed the present Damocles. The AESA RBE2 radar and Spectra electronic warfare system will also be improved.
How about buying another another 100 MKIs in Super-30
config and integrate Meteor/Scalp/Brahmos-NG? Will not cost more than 12-15 Billion dollars.. Invest rest in Kaveri/AMCA programs ...?
I am not an expert like other members here. So, another 40 Billion does seem to be astronomical amount of money to spend on a foreign plane.
Seems that there is also an upgrade of M-88 and integration of some weapons.The whole upgrade to F3R standard cost €1 billion and we pay $1.7 billion for hot/high + lightning + HMDS ?!
Something is not right, lets wait for full details. If these numbers are true DM is up for a lot of scrutiny.
There is a basic flaw in the argument for anyone pushing the Super MKI (leaving aside it is far from a perfect substitute for the Rafale and even after this deep upgrade will remain primarily a air dominance fighter) over the Rafale in that they assume that it is the cheaper option.How about buying another another 100 MKIs in Super-30 config and integrate Meteor/Scalp/Brahmos-NG? Will not cost more than 12-15 Billion dollars.. Invest rest in Kaveri/AMCA programs ...?
I am not an expert like other members here. So, another 40 Billion does seem to be astronomical amount of money to spend on a foreign plane.
So, Dassault will invest $20 Billion here ? Wonder where will that go..
Now Kaveri obviously will come online with their help in-lieu of their commitment with regards to current purchases. Why not start working on AMCA ?
The detail of the whole cost is unknown. It's only assumption from some of us.The whole upgrade to F3R standard cost €1 billion and we pay $1.7 billion for hot/high + lightning + HMDS ?!
Something is not right, lets wait for full details. If these numbers are true DM is up for a lot of scrutiny.
@jha Will take you on a short journey of rationality so that you answer your own questions ..... please bear with me
What will be the cost of another 100 Su-30 MKIs, with their planned upgrade to Super Sukhoi? What shall be the overall LCC costs on overall Sukhoi LCC? As also the additional costs in increasing the present reserve costs and infrastructure upgradation? Have you factored in the costs of these issues and do they turn out to be much 'cheaper' per unit for these additional 100 pieces? In what ways do these 100 meet/surpass and not meet/surpass rafale's capability?
I am sure the breakdown of the whole deal will tell you the cost of aircrafts being approx 3.4 billion euros. The rest going towards creation of infrastructure and weapons suite/avionics as per own specifications and modifications as we want them. So, your armament of Meteor is there, does Brahmos NG meet the criterion of Meteor? Or is Brahmos NG a different weapon for a different role?
What has happened to Kaveri? How long has it been in development and how successful has it been?
how early do you expect AMCA to be airborne? Has LCA been inducted in a squadron strength and is it now frontline combat aircraft after three and a half decades?
Why, in your opinion, did we buy T-90s and not Arjun in 1999 (although Arjun today is a formidable tank) and why do you think that we retrospectively ordered to buy ACs and additional protection suites AFTER paying to get them removed in the first case?
What is your opinion on Indians building a shed for the Phalcon AWACS which are too small and hence they are parked in open where their rotodome has to be looked after from elements?
Why, in your opinion, did we allow US to build integrated state of the art access controlled shelters for C-130s in Hindon and not sub-contract to our own people? And why, in your opinion, did US specifically prohibit maintenance and modifications by India and build it into the contract whereby any tampering will leave the warranty of the platform null and void?
What do you think is the reason for IA building Air conditioned warehouses for storage of ATGMs?
The answers to all these will give you a broad picture. Specifically, the issue has been discussed to death here. You just need to read back.
The forty billion is in technology absorption, the number of platforms and the associated ancillaries. Otherwise, every time one would need to re-enter contract negotiations.
The underlined and bold part is very pertinent.
Intelligence gathering operations and expert 'information' has one thing in common - the ability to collate the data and make sense of it.
The information that you seek to clarify your doubts exists in this forum and this thread itself. It is only a question of your joining the dots and making a sense for yourself.
I suggest you do that, you would have answered your own questions/queries about this project and in the process will be a better informed member and citizen too.
Bro, please stop making up figures, it doesn't allow for a constructive discussion at all.In nutshell, we should be ready to spend $40-50 Billion dollars on ~150(?) odd planes because we obviously are not intelligent enough to build even sheds for Phalcons. Good enough for me.
There is a basic flaw in the argument for anyone pushing the Super MKI (leaving aside it is far from a perfect substitute for the Rafale and even after this deep upgrade will remain primarily a air dominance fighter) over the Rafale in that they assume that it is the cheaper option.
Whilst it is true that a significant proportion of this Rafale deal is being spent on building state of the art infrastructure that already exists for the MKI in India, the simple fact of the matter is the flyaway cost of the Super MKI is actually likely to be quite a bit more than the price being offered to India for the Rafale (this is before any price reductions when localised manufacturing commences). Secondly, even if the Super MKI was matching the Rafale in upfront cost (or marginally less) it will be FAR more expensive to fly, maintain and operate throughout its 30-40 year lifespan with the IAF.
Bro, please stop making up figures, it doesn't allow for a constructive discussion at all.
Bro, please stop making up figures, it doesn't allow for a constructive discussion at all.
As I have said, in this day and age modern military tech is very expensive there is no escaping this reality.