Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[khanasifm]

 

[The Accountant]

While what you state is true however , considering you maintain the thickness of sheets all around and do ample testing there is no reason to claim Pakistan cannot manufacture own Fusalage or Wings it is a rediculous claim

Metallic sheets as such are produced which are then conformed to form a curved surface by Engineers

Really folks no Rocket Science , even thou we do make Rockets with same concept in Pakistan but to claim we can't fix up Mirage fusalage is strange claim

Informative good stuff
This is the kind of thing we should have been doing in Steeles Mills which of course is shut down

Brother my father and his brother dedicated all of their life to steel mill .. believe me its not that simple ... pakistan steel mill was even unable to produce sheets upto the standard of pak suzuki ... You cant even think about sheets for jet engine

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Every thing can be improved as they say , you have to import new machinery and make enhancements

 

[The Accountant]

Every thing can be improved as they say , you have to import new machinery and make enhancements

Yes but as of now we are not at that level ... Try to understand we first have to meet our commercial needs ... Defence needs can only be satisfied as an addition to commercial need ... No one can run a mill sophisticated enough to meet the metallergical demand of jet industry on stand alone basis... We need to establish an industrial base and on that we can capitalize ... For example do you know one of the government sector giant corporation had a whole division working for Pak Armed forces covertly and all the technologies we could not procure directly we purchased and manufactured through that organization ... We did successfully as we were already stabled in that particular industry and were also making profits but now situation has reversed...

So do remember defence industry cannot run in isolation ... While we are importing steel sheets for sub standards cars like mehran then you cannot expect to manufacture aviation grade steel sheet ... First step is creation of a vibrant commerical sector but due to unfortunate legal and tax complications it is almost impossible to setup manufacturing facilities therefore businessmans prefer trading activities over manufacturing ...

 

[araz]

Yes but as of now we are not at that level ... Try to understand we first have to meet our commercial needs ... Defence needs can only be satisfied as an addition to defence need ... No one can run a mill sophisticated enough to meet the metallergical demand of jet industry on stand alone basis... We need to establish an industrial base and on that we can capitalize ... For example do you know one of the government sector giant corporation had a whole division working for Pak Armed forces covertly and all the technologies we could not procure directly we purchased and manufactured through that organization ... We did successfully as we were already stabled in that particular industry and were also making profits but now situation has reversed...

So do remember defence industry cannot run in isolation ... While we are importing steel sheets for sub standards cars like mehran then you cannot expect to manufacture aviation grade steel sheet ... First step is creation of a vibrant commerical sector but due to unfortunate legal and tax complications it is almost impossible to setup manufacturing facilities therefore businessmans are prefer trading activities over manufacturing ...

Dual use technology is the key word. Procure for industrial use. Defence usage is an offshoot. Good post. But dont worry, you can continue to show him the light all day long, he wont understand. He is in a different dimension and all things logical dont get there.
Regards
A

 

[denel]

Yes but as of now we are not at that level ... Try to understand we first have to meet our commercial needs ... Defence needs can only be satisfied as an addition to commercial need ... No one can run a mill sophisticated enough to meet the metallergical demand of jet industry on stand alone basis... We need to establish an industrial base and on that we can capitalize ... For example do you know one of the government sector giant corporation had a whole division working for Pak Armed forces covertly and all the technologies we could not procure directly we purchased and manufactured through that organization ... We did successfully as we were already stabled in that particular industry and were also making profits but now situation has reversed...

So do remember defence industry cannot run in isolation ... While we are importing steel sheets for sub standards cars like mehran then you cannot expect to manufacture aviation grade steel sheet ... First step is creation of a vibrant commerical sector but due to unfortunate legal and tax complications it is almost impossible to setup manufacturing facilities therefore businessmans prefer trading activities over manufacturing ...

Let us not go there, let me ask you a basic question - are the antennas even imported that are mounted on these aircraft yes or no? I used to have fabrication in my garage for making antennas for small private planes during the sanctions times. Many of the local small airports here i built for them as well; used an interesting concept in vertical antennas design to come up with a new design. We were shocked as to how good our local design performed compared to commercial ones that were imported. Made some good money on the side. Once the design was proven; it was just a matter of customising for different aircrafts/microlights/airfields. My asking price was R300 ($100) at the time and $200 for the airfield/airport for airband. Then it was just word of mouth getting orders to come through. Again, i did it for interest not for the money.
My team was manufacturing the antennas for Mirages here locally including Cheetahs/Impalas.

 

[Bossman]

Brother my father and his brother dedicated all of their life to steel mill .. believe me its not that simple ... pakistan steel mill was even unable to produce sheets upto the standard of pak suzuki ... You cant even think about sheets for jet engine

First of all Azad is talking about wings and not engine and secondly wings are made from aluminum and not steel. Pakistan Steel is not expected to provide aviation grade steel but there is one company in Pakistan which can and it is Peoples Steel. Here I am not talking about sheet metal but for load bearing parts like landing gears. Turbines blade are very different story. Less than 5 countries in the world have that technology especially for single crystal turbine blades.

 

[MiG-35-BD]

a can-do attitude is very important. As is good planning that does not involve dysfunctional politics. Bhutto ruined the steel potential of Pakistan when he got the Soviet old steel mill instead of the two small german ones that was planned. One in a coal producing region and another in an iron ore producing region.

That was stupid and sadly has YET to be corrected.

 

[syed_yusuf]

As per an EX-IAF Air Marshal, PAF has 6 Mirage squadrons with 120-130 Mirages.
PAF acquired a total of ~200 Mirages + some more as source for spares.
About 70 aircraft have been lost due to attrition.

your math is not adding up

 

[Sine Nomine]

As per an EX-IAF Air Marshal, PAF has 6 Mirage squadrons with 120-130 Mirages.
PAF acquired a total of ~200 Mirages + some more as source for spares.
About 70 aircraft have been lost due to attrition.

That is total Acquisation from 1970 to 1990's,do you think,the batch which came in 1970's is still flying,they have been decomissioned.

 

[ziaulislam]

Well I never understood the arguments

• Fusalage is difficult to recreate
  
• Wings are hard to copy

This is just a modeller's concept but to imagine it cannpt be replicated with Metals is strange thought the metallic parts like fusalage or wings should be the easiest thing to copy


What kind of unique featues a typical Fusalage needs below is a example (not for mirage)
There is 0% technial challenge in this kind of manufacturing

Even basic crafts man can replicate the fusalage / wings

Looks very simple project for a professional firm, specially if you have a copy in hand

In all honestly ... very simple project for a pro firm dealing with metal


Even private sector would be able to replicate this model copy with few Million tender in Pakistan

The design it self is obsolete ...why re create an obsolete design !!!!

For example , These were not designed around fly by wire

 

[Taha Samad]

I had two questions:

1) Did any upgrade happen to Non-ROSE Mirages? And if not, what were the reasons; money etc? Considering that ROSE upgrade happened around mid-90s time frame; the non-ROSE mirages are serving till date and will probably continue to do so for 2-3 more years it would not have a bad investment. As of today I believe there are still at least 3 non-ROSE squadrons.

2) Secondly off and on we hear that Mirages(probably ROSE-I) had limited BVR capability through R-Darter variant(Crescent Arrow or whatever it was called). But has anyone come across any official source, book, picture that would confirm this. What would be the load out 2 BVR, 2 WVR with centerline tank? I am asking this since ROSE Mirages and F-7 PGs will probably continue to serve till 2025. F-7PG can take on role of Point Defence / Ground Support fighter basically forming the lower tier of PAF force; ROSE-II/III are probably still well suited for their Tactical Attack / Night Strike role. But ROSE-I without BVR taking on the role of Air Defense is bit questionable.

 

[GriffinsRule]

your math is not adding up

Over the years, at least 65 Mirages have crashed. 2006 was a particularly bad year when 6 different Mirages crashed.

I had two questions:

1) Did any upgrade happen to Non-ROSE Mirages? And if not, what were the reasons; money etc? Considering that ROSE upgrade happened around mid-90s time frame; the non-ROSE mirages are serving till date and will probably continue to do so for 2-3 more years it would not have a bad investment. As of today I believe there are still at least 3 non-ROSE squadrons.

2) Secondly off and on we here that Mirages(probably ROSE-I) had limited BVR capability through R-Darter variant(Crescent Arrow or whatever it was called). But has anyone come across any official source, book, picture that would confirm this. What would be the load out 2 BVR, 2 WVR with centerline tank? I am asking this since ROSE Mirages and F-7 PGs will probably continue to serve till 2025. F-7PG take on role of Point Defence / Ground Forces Support fighter forming the lower tier of PAF force; ROSE-II/III are probably still well suited for their Tactical Attack / Night Strike role. But ROSE-I without BVR taking on the role of Air Defence is bit questionable.

There were multiple ROSE upgrades done over the years as PAF acquired aircraft from various sources. However, I have not come across any literature that indicates if we upgraded the original PAF jets from the 60s and 70s to the ROSE standard, but they would have had smaller upgrades to things like HUDs, navigation equipment, Comm and Radios etc.
The first ROSE upgrade (with Grifo M) was done to 33 ex-Australian Mirage III O/OD (EA/DA).
The second ROSE II upgrade was done to 19/20 of the 40 (1 crashed during test flights in France) ex-French Mirage V EF.
A third ROSE III upgrade was done to the remaining 14 Mirage V EF with improved night attack capabilities. (6 of the 40 were dual-seat Mirage DFs and were not part of the ROSE upgrades).
I am not sure if any of the Libyan Mirage III ELs were upgraded or not.

For your second question, I don't think PAF operates any Mirages with BVR missiles, even though the Grifo M would have allowed for BVR engagements given its range/power etc. However, there is no evidence of them having the capability in actual service. Much like PAF F-16A/Bs were BVR capable back in the day, but had no missiles to use for such engagements.

 

[Cuirassier]

Some 67 Mirage ROSE and perhaps ~68 non-ROSE with us atm.

 

[Taha Samad]

Over the years, at least 65 Mirages have crashed. 2006 was a particularly bad year when 6 different Mirages crashed.



There were multiple ROSE upgrades done over the years as PAF acquired aircraft from various sources. However, I have not come across any literature that indicates if we upgraded the original PAF jets from the 60s and 70s to the ROSE standard, but they would have had smaller upgrades to things like HUDs, navigation equipment, Comm and Radios etc.
The first ROSE upgrade (with Grifo M) was done to 33 ex-Australian Mirage III O/OD (EA/DA).
The second ROSE II upgrade was done to 19/20 of the 40 (1 crashed during test flights in France) ex-French Mirage V EF.
A third ROSE III upgrade was done to the remaining 14 Mirage V EF with improved night attack capabilities. (6 of the 40 were dual-seat Mirage DFs and were not part of the ROSE upgrades).
I am not sure if any of the Libyan Mirage III ELs were upgraded or not.

For your second question, I don't think PAF operates any Mirages with BVR missiles, even though the Grifo M would have allowed for BVR engagements given its range/power etc. However, there is no evidence of them having the capability in actual service. Much like PAF F-16A/Bs were BVR capable back in the day, but had no missiles to use for such engagements.

I am aware of what happened under ROSE program. I was more interested in what if any meaningful upgrades took place for the non-ROSE mirages and particularly the reason for not going for upgrades; specially ROSE-IV which was proposed by french or even applying ROSE-I/II/III to remaining fleet. Given the sanctions and PAF needs at the time it seemed logical to continue the ROSE program.

Most often high cost and ageing fleet was cited as the reason for discontinuation of this program. I can understand the high cost part for ROSE-IV since it may have involved structural improvements and even a new engine. But a drilled down version on ROSE-IV or if not feasible ROSE-I/II/II could have been applied to the remaining fleet. The ageing fleet reason does make sense in hind-sight as Mirages end up serving for another 2+ decades.

As of today their are currently 3 non-ROSE squadrons:

1. No. 8: Operating Mirage V PA2/PA3 (PA3s has Agave Radar mated with Exocet specialized for maritime strike; while PA2s have Cyrano IV radar for tactical attack role)
2. No. 15 majorly having non-upgraded Mirage V (VPA2, but also few other special mission variants like reconnaissance).
   
3. No. 22 is OCU, so mostly has dual seaters (Mirage III DP, DA, DL etc)

As for the BVR missile being available; go through the initial pages of this thread and you would know what I am talking about. There was confirmation about presence of BVR missile based on R-Darter by many senior members/PAF insiders. But no official confirmation ever came.