Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[GriffinsRule]

I am aware of what happened under ROSE program. I was more interested in what if any meaningful upgrades took place for the non-ROSE mirages and particularly the reason for not going for upgrades; specially ROSE-IV which was proposed by french or even applying ROSE-I/II/III to remaining fleet. Given the sanctions and PAF needs at the time it seemed logical to continue the ROSE program.

Most often high cost and ageing fleet was cited as the reason for discontinuation of this program. I can understand the high cost part for ROSE-IV since it may have involved structural improvements and even a new engine. But a drilled down version on ROSE-IV or if not feasible ROSE-I/II/II could have been applied to the remaining fleet. The ageing fleet reason does make sense in hind-sight as Mirages end up serving for another 2+ decades.

As of today their are currently 3 non-ROSE squadrons:

1. No. 8: Operating Mirage V PA2/PA3 (PA3s has Agave Radar mated with Exocet specialized for maritime strike; while PA2s have Cyrano IV radar for tactical attack role)
2. No. 15 majorly having non-upgraded Mirage V (VPA2, but also few other special mission variants like reconnaissance).
   
3. No. 22 is OCU, so mostly has dual seaters (Mirage III DP, DA, DL etc)

As for the BVR missile being available; go through the initial pages of this thread and you would know what I am talking about. There was confirmation about presence of BVR missile based on R-Darter by many senior members/PAF insiders. But no official confirmation ever came.

I am going to have to speculate myself for the reasons, but part of the problem was also which aircraft to upgrade for what configuration. Why the original Mirages were not upgraded akin to the ROSE I/II/III standard, I think is partly because of numbers and varying variants of Mirages left over. For example, PAF has lost most of the original Mirage III EP (there were 18 ordered in 1967). These would have been akin to the Mirage III Os from Australia and could have supported the Grifo M radar but probably were not upgraded due to age and the small numbers left in service. The token number of Mirage III RPs could not be upgraded to ROSE because at the time they offered the only asset that gave us the limited recon ability. (It was not until 2008-2009 that the first C-130s were upgraded with Bright Star config etc and later joined by F-16s with DB110 pods).
That leaves the Mirage V PA/PA2s ... I am not certain of the numbers left after attrition, but perhaps it was decided not to upgrade them as they are all radar equipped Mirage V variants, unlike the EFs we got from France (as No 8 Sqd also operates in the anti-shipping roles and thus upgrading half of the fleet might not have made sense?)

I think what it points to is that there is enough variations in the different Mirage variants that a standardized upgrade was not possible for the remaining Mirages. If memory serves me right, when PAF went to look for Mirages from Europe, part of the requirement was to find 40-50 of the same model. They lucked out with finding them in France. But they had also looked at Belgium and Swiss ones as well. Similarly, all the Aussie Mirage III were mostly the same ... and the ones that were not, like a few of the two-seaters and recon versions, were not part of the ROSE I upgrade. I might be wrong here of course but unless someone asks this question next time to someone at the MRF, we might never know concretely.

So to basically summarize, we probably did not upgrade the original Mirages because of a hodgepodge of variants. From the original 85-90, we have only enough left for 2 squadrons. And these also include some aircraft from Libya and Lebanon. So that is probably why (no one standard).

As for the squadrons, I think your list is right. From what I can see, the non-ROSE Mirages are in the following 3 squadrons:

Mirage V PA/PA2/PA3s: No 8 Sqd 'Haiders'
Mirage V PA, Mirage III EP/RP/DP: No 15 Sqd 'Cobras'
Mirage III/V (Mixture of varients): No 22 OCU Sqd 'Ghazis'

ROSE upgraded squadrons are below.
The 40 Mirage V EFs from France are split up between the two tactical attack squadrons,
Mirage V EF: No 25 Sqd 'Eagles' and No 27 Sqd 'Zarrars'.
Mirage III O: No 7 Sqd 'Bandits' as well as a few with the CCS.

For the BVR question, if the Mirages had the capability, it would have been made public by now. But given that there has never been any evidence of such and over the years, different PAF personnel have given interviews stating that we didn't get the BVR missiles until JF-17 and then upgraded F-16s, I think is sufficient for me to think that is perhaps closer to reality.

 

[syed zia Hassan]

Very Well support to Mirage III and V ...but in Pakistan Air Force. are you sure about that last 1968 to 2018 PAF used these Machine. It also a World Record. but now for the last few years Air Crashes going to a high rate and loss are too High ... Wing Commender Air Commodore. Base Commander . High Rang High Quality Well Trained Pilots loos their Lives. Its Its unacceptable. PAF should Retired Mirage III and v as Soon as Possible.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Yes, the Mirage aircraft have to be replaced, but not due to the reason you mention but because they are not as capable as they once were. And crashes have been happening in the Mirage fleet as long as they have been in service. In most cases, we never find out the reason behind a particular crash, so we can not assume it is due to the age of the aircraft or for some other reason.
There were at least 7 Mirage crashes just in the 1970s when the aircraft were practically brand new. The worst decade actually was from 2000-2009 when at least 29 Mirages were lost for varying reasons. So far from 2010 till now, only 16 Mirage aircraft have been lost.
A lot of these crashes have also been happening around take-offs and landings, when the risk from bird strikes in the highest ... you can thank the Pakistani people and their trash dumping and collection habits for that, not the aircraft itself.

 

[Readerdefence]

Hi can anybody shed some light if jf17 can carry Raad if not then mirages will remain in paf
Until we have something comparable to raad for jf17
Any memeber with more info please
Thank you

 

[syed zia Hassan]

Yes, the Mirage aircraft have to be replaced, but not due to the reason you mention but because they are not as capable as they once were. And crashes have been happening in the Mirage fleet as long as they have been in service. In most cases, we never find out the reason behind a particular crash, so we can not assume it is due to the age of the aircraft or for some other reason.
There were at least 7 Mirage crashes just in the 1970s when the aircraft were practically brand new. The worst decade actually was from 2000-2009 when at least 29 Mirages were lost for varying reasons. So far from 2010 till now, only 16 Mirage aircraft have been lost.
A lot of these crashes have also been happening around take-offs and landings, when the risk from bird strikes in the highest ... you can thank the Pakistani people and their trash dumping and collection habits for that, not the aircraft itself.

ok I understand your point but the reasons not found yet it also a big question of crashes .. Pilots of PAF every one known their are best . not only Mirages now F7ps also

 

[syed zia Hassan]

And received from Aus

 

[ziaulislam]

let see how much can we replicate this with F16s
in dire times of fiscal problems in late 90s mirage 5 Rose program was a successful program not only as cost effective solution but also a learning experience in avionics and rebuilding airframe

 

[denel]

let see how much can we replicate this with F16s
in dire times of fiscal problems in late 90s mirage 5 Rose program was a successful program not only as cost effective solution but also a learning experience in avionics and rebuilding airframe

Absolutely this a valid point; there are hundreds of f-16s out there in storage or being sold off; how long before US does not need to be consulted. Build jf-17 blk3 to the point that f-16s are irrelevant; then it becomes the bargaining chip that it is not a sellers market but a buyer's market.

Hi can anybody shed some light if jf17 can carry Raad if not then mirages will remain in paf
Until we have something comparable to raad for jf17
Any memeber with more info please
Thank you

No, it cannot carry it; the fuselage to ground clearance height is not tall enough.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Came across this news clipping while searching for old info ... this is cicra 1988 ... Pakistan even then had an eye on the Australian Mirages as a plan B. But the Pressler Amendment sealed the deal and rest is history.

 

[Basel]

I had two questions:

1) Did any upgrade happen to Non-ROSE Mirages? And if not, what were the reasons; money etc? Considering that ROSE upgrade happened around mid-90s time frame; the non-ROSE mirages are serving till date and will probably continue to do so for 2-3 more years it would not have a bad investment. As of today I believe there are still at least 3 non-ROSE squadrons.

2) Secondly off and on we hear that Mirages(probably ROSE-I) had limited BVR capability through R-Darter variant(Crescent Arrow or whatever it was called). But has anyone come across any official source, book, picture that would confirm this. What would be the load out 2 BVR, 2 WVR with centerline tank? I am asking this since ROSE Mirages and F-7 PGs will probably continue to serve till 2025. F-7PG can take on role of Point Defence / Ground Support fighter basically forming the lower tier of PAF force; ROSE-II/III are probably still well suited for their Tactical Attack / Night Strike role. But ROSE-I without BVR taking on the role of Air Defense is bit questionable.

The development in missile and sensor tech is at that point that if PAF want to make PG & Rose Mirages potent defensive threat then they can just add latest gen ASRAAM (IR guided 50km max range) class missile with HMS/HMD to mitigate radar issues and if one add EW pods like IAF has done then ROSE birds will be able to do some damage inside enemy territory too.

 

[ziaulislam]

The development in missile and sensor tech is at that point that if PAF want to make PG & Rose Mirages potent defensive threat then they can just add latest gen ASRAAM (IR guided 50km max range) class missile with HMS/HMD to mitigate radar issues and if one add EW pods like IAF has done then ROSE birds will be able to do some damage inside enemy territory too.

range and endurance will not allow it use beyond point defence, especialy if pods are added
i think PAF will stick to mirages and would take PG out earlier
but i am an amatuer and is just my guess

 

[Basel]

range and endurance will not allow it use beyond point defence, especialy if pods are added
i think PAF will stick to mirages and would take PG out earlier
but i am an amatuer and is just my guess

You forgot M-5 have better range than M-3 due to more internal fuel capacity but still with IFR ROSE can do better, may be like upgraded Indian Jags.

PG are very good in point defense, with HMS/HMD + ASRAAM (max 50km range IR missile) in NCW environment they could serve well till end of their life.

 

[ziaulislam]

You forgot M-5 have better range than M-3 due to more internal fuel capacity but still with IFR ROSE can do better, may be like upgraded Indian Jags.

PG are very good in point defense, with HMS/HMD + ASRAAM (max 50km range IR missile) in NCW environment they could serve well till end of their life.

my guess is none rose will follow, than PG will go by 2023-25 and mirages ROSE might linger on till 2027-30 (i.e till the thunder production is there)

 

[Tank131]

Actually inthink the rose mirages will go before PGs, mostly due to the fact that the oldest of the PG airframes is only 16 years old. People forget that they were built in 2001. If China develops a good HMD then PAF can equip the PGs with Pl-10 or A-darter which have a 20km range. I doubt that PAF will be getting ASRAAM anytime soon, and certainly will not get a missile just for an aircraft type that is being phased out, as ideal as it would have been to increase its longevity. That is not even to address whether or not the brits would sell it to Pakistan. The other alternative is to equip the PGs with LINK 17 and equip them with SD-10s to be guided by JF-17s, ground radars, or AWACS. They are, however, likely far more airworthy than the M3 or M5s even likely moreso than the ROSE Mirages. Frankly, as long as the ROSE mirages are in service, it may be worth setting them up with a similar package, possibly with SD-10 or A_darter. For them, it may be worth getting any remaining R_darters in service with SAAF.

 

[Basel]

Actually inthink the rose mirages will go before PGs, mostly due to the fact that the oldest of the PG airframes is only 16 years old. People forget that they were built in 2001. If China develops a good HMD then PAF can equip the PGs with Pl-10 or A-darter which have a 20km range. I doubt that PAF will be getting ASRAAM anytime soon, and certainly will not get a missile just for an aircraft type that is being phased out, as ideal as it would have been to increase its longevity. That is not even to address whether or not the brits would sell it to Pakistan. The other alternative is to equip the PGs with LINK 17 and equip them with SD-10s to be guided by JF-17s, ground radars, or AWACS. They are, however, likely far more airworthy than the M3 or M5s even likely moreso than the ROSE Mirages. Frankly, as long as the ROSE mirages are in service, it may be worth setting them up with a similar package, possibly with SD-10 or A_darter. For them, it may be worth getting any remaining R_darters in service with SAAF.

As all ROSE Mirages are NCW capable so equipping them with BVR may not be big issue specially in LOAL mode (who knows it already done), as for ASRAAM class missile it will not come just for old birds as JFTs also need better range IR missile, PGs already carry AIM-9s and any new IR missile PAF buy in future will go to PGs as they are called poor man's F-16s. PAF should look into Russian R-73/74 (latest versions) too.