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Brother my father and his brother dedicated all of their life to steel mill .. believe me its not that simple ... pakistan steel mill was even unable to produce sheets upto the standard of pak suzuki ... You cant even think about sheets for jet engineWhile what you state is true however , considering you maintain the thickness of sheets all around and do ample testing there is no reason to claim Pakistan cannot manufacture own Fusalage or Wings it is a rediculous claim
Metallic sheets as such are produced which are then conformed to form a curved surface by Engineers
Really folks no Rocket Science , even thou we do make Rockets with same concept in Pakistan but to claim we can't fix up Mirage fusalage is strange claim
Informative good stuff
This is the kind of thing we should have been doing in Steeles Mills which of course is shut down
Yes but as of now we are not at that level ... Try to understand we first have to meet our commercial needs ... Defence needs can only be satisfied as an addition to commercial need ... No one can run a mill sophisticated enough to meet the metallergical demand of jet industry on stand alone basis... We need to establish an industrial base and on that we can capitalize ... For example do you know one of the government sector giant corporation had a whole division working for Pak Armed forces covertly and all the technologies we could not procure directly we purchased and manufactured through that organization ... We did successfully as we were already stabled in that particular industry and were also making profits but now situation has reversed...Every thing can be improved as they say , you have to import new machinery and make enhancements
Dual use technology is the key word. Procure for industrial use. Defence usage is an offshoot. Good post. But dont worry, you can continue to show him the light all day long, he wont understand. He is in a different dimension and all things logical dont get there.Yes but as of now we are not at that level ... Try to understand we first have to meet our commercial needs ... Defence needs can only be satisfied as an addition to defence need ... No one can run a mill sophisticated enough to meet the metallergical demand of jet industry on stand alone basis... We need to establish an industrial base and on that we can capitalize ... For example do you know one of the government sector giant corporation had a whole division working for Pak Armed forces covertly and all the technologies we could not procure directly we purchased and manufactured through that organization ... We did successfully as we were already stabled in that particular industry and were also making profits but now situation has reversed...
So do remember defence industry cannot run in isolation ... While we are importing steel sheets for sub standards cars like mehran then you cannot expect to manufacture aviation grade steel sheet ... First step is creation of a vibrant commerical sector but due to unfortunate legal and tax complications it is almost impossible to setup manufacturing facilities therefore businessmans are prefer trading activities over manufacturing ...
Let us not go there, let me ask you a basic question - are the antennas even imported that are mounted on these aircraft yes or no? I used to have fabrication in my garage for making antennas for small private planes during the sanctions times. Many of the local small airports here i built for them as well; used an interesting concept in vertical antennas design to come up with a new design. We were shocked as to how good our local design performed compared to commercial ones that were imported. Made some good money on the side. Once the design was proven; it was just a matter of customising for different aircrafts/microlights/airfields. My asking price was R300 ($100) at the time and $200 for the airfield/airport for airband. Then it was just word of mouth getting orders to come through. Again, i did it for interest not for the money.Yes but as of now we are not at that level ... Try to understand we first have to meet our commercial needs ... Defence needs can only be satisfied as an addition to commercial need ... No one can run a mill sophisticated enough to meet the metallergical demand of jet industry on stand alone basis... We need to establish an industrial base and on that we can capitalize ... For example do you know one of the government sector giant corporation had a whole division working for Pak Armed forces covertly and all the technologies we could not procure directly we purchased and manufactured through that organization ... We did successfully as we were already stabled in that particular industry and were also making profits but now situation has reversed...
So do remember defence industry cannot run in isolation ... While we are importing steel sheets for sub standards cars like mehran then you cannot expect to manufacture aviation grade steel sheet ... First step is creation of a vibrant commerical sector but due to unfortunate legal and tax complications it is almost impossible to setup manufacturing facilities therefore businessmans prefer trading activities over manufacturing ...
Brother my father and his brother dedicated all of their life to steel mill .. believe me its not that simple ... pakistan steel mill was even unable to produce sheets upto the standard of pak suzuki ... You cant even think about sheets for jet engine
your math is not adding upAs per an EX-IAF Air Marshal, PAF has 6 Mirage squadrons with 120-130 Mirages.
PAF acquired a total of ~200 Mirages + some more as source for spares.
About 70 aircraft have been lost due to attrition.
That is total Acquisation from 1970 to 1990's,do you think,the batch which came in 1970's is still flying,they have been decomissioned.As per an EX-IAF Air Marshal, PAF has 6 Mirage squadrons with 120-130 Mirages.
PAF acquired a total of ~200 Mirages + some more as source for spares.
About 70 aircraft have been lost due to attrition.
The design it self is obsolete ...why re create an obsolete design !!!!Well I never understood the arguments
- Fusalage is difficult to recreate
- Wings are hard to copy
This is just a modeller's concept but to imagine it cannpt be replicated with Metals is strange thought the metallic parts like fusalage or wings should be the easiest thing to copy
What kind of unique featues a typical Fusalage needs below is a example (not for mirage)
There is 0% technial challenge in this kind of manufacturing
Even basic crafts man can replicate the fusalage / wings
Looks very simple project for a professional firm, specially if you have a copy in hand
In all honestly ... very simple project for a pro firm dealing with metal
Even private sector would be able to replicate this model copy with few Million tender in Pakistan
your math is not adding up
I had two questions:
1) Did any upgrade happen to Non-ROSE Mirages? And if not, what were the reasons; money etc? Considering that ROSE upgrade happened around mid-90s time frame; the non-ROSE mirages are serving till date and will probably continue to do so for 2-3 more years it would not have a bad investment. As of today I believe there are still at least 3 non-ROSE squadrons.
2) Secondly off and on we here that Mirages(probably ROSE-I) had limited BVR capability through R-Darter variant(Crescent Arrow or whatever it was called). But has anyone come across any official source, book, picture that would confirm this. What would be the load out 2 BVR, 2 WVR with centerline tank? I am asking this since ROSE Mirages and F-7 PGs will probably continue to serve till 2025. F-7PG take on role of Point Defence / Ground Forces Support fighter forming the lower tier of PAF force; ROSE-II/III are probably still well suited for their Tactical Attack / Night Strike role. But ROSE-I without BVR taking on the role of Air Defence is bit questionable.
Over the years, at least 65 Mirages have crashed. 2006 was a particularly bad year when 6 different Mirages crashed.
There were multiple ROSE upgrades done over the years as PAF acquired aircraft from various sources. However, I have not come across any literature that indicates if we upgraded the original PAF jets from the 60s and 70s to the ROSE standard, but they would have had smaller upgrades to things like HUDs, navigation equipment, Comm and Radios etc.
The first ROSE upgrade (with Grifo M) was done to 33 ex-Australian Mirage III O/OD (EA/DA).
The second ROSE II upgrade was done to 19/20 of the 40 (1 crashed during test flights in France) ex-French Mirage V EF.
A third ROSE III upgrade was done to the remaining 14 Mirage V EF with improved night attack capabilities. (6 of the 40 were dual-seat Mirage DFs and were not part of the ROSE upgrades).
I am not sure if any of the Libyan Mirage III ELs were upgraded or not.
For your second question, I don't think PAF operates any Mirages with BVR missiles, even though the Grifo M would have allowed for BVR engagements given its range/power etc. However, there is no evidence of them having the capability in actual service. Much like PAF F-16A/Bs were BVR capable back in the day, but had no missiles to use for such engagements.