Buy F-16s to avoid sanctions post-Russia deal, US tells India

[Maarkhoor]

LOL fvcking awesome. The Americans still desperate to sell their outdated F-16s to India. These two deserve each other. A match made in heaven.

Block 60 is not outdated but one of the most advance jet in its category, it is win win situation for India.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

strangely what i noticed recently is Tata Advanced Systems is gearing up to do something big, will that be . . . . .

Both Boeing and LM have a business relationship with Tatas.

The F-22/F-35 hybrid is currently costing $177 million per unit for Japan. If India joins the program the price should come down to ~$140 million per unit.

Block 60 is not outdated but one of the most advance jet in its category, it is win win situation for India.

F-16 is not outdated but it does not bring anything new to the table as India is already procuring Rafales.

The only options that India is interested are:

• F-22/F-35 hybrid for Indian Airforce
• F-35C & F-35B for Indian Navy

@maximuswarrior

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

India should go for F35, Tejas can fill stop gap for 4th gen fighter as program is picking up right now, in 2025, I believe 70-80 tejas flying around . So it also makes sense to save money on Rafale, when Tejas will speedup production.
High ,medium , low mix such as Russian Stealth fighter SU57, then F35, SU30MKI, Rafale, And tejas. Also upgraded mig29, mig2000 and jaguars flying around.

 

[maximuswarrior]

Both Boeing and LM have a business relationship with Tatas.

The F-22/F-35 hybrid is currently costing $177 million per unit for Japan. If India joins the program the price should come down to ~$140 million per unit.




F-16 is not outdated but it does not bring anything new to the table as India is already procuring Rafales.

The only options that India is interested are:

• F-22/F-35 hybrid for Indian Airforce
• F-35C & F-35B for Indian Navy

@maximuswarrior

Agreed. India won't be going for anything less and that is common sense at this stage.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

India should go for F35, Tejas can fill stop gap for 4th gen fighter as program is picking up right now, in 2025, I believe 70-80 tejas flying around . So it also makes sense to save money on Rafale, when Tejas will speedup production.
High ,medium , low mix such as Russian Stealth fighter SU57, then F35, SU30MKI, Rafale, And tejas. Also upgraded mig29, mig2000 and jaguars flying around.

Modi has already pulled out of the Russian SU-57 program as that was the prerequisite from the US for India to get any 5th generation fighter from the US.

 

[randomradio]

Both Boeing and LM have a business relationship with Tatas.

The F-22/F-35 hybrid is currently costing $177 million per unit for Japan. If India joins the program the price should come down to ~$140 million per unit.

The Japanese do not want to take the F-22 route.

Modi has already pulled out of the Russian SU-57 program as that was the prerequisite from the US for India to get any 5th generation fighter from the US.

PAK FA/FGFA is still active. The decision on it has been postponed to after elections, that's all.

 

[kmc_chacko]

Both Boeing and LM have a business relationship with Tatas.

The F-22/F-35 hybrid is currently costing $177 million per unit for Japan. If India joins the program the price should come down to ~$140 million per unit.

@maximuswarrior

If we look at current Su-30MKI production cost i don't think cost will be issue in case if, fighter is locally built.

We have to see how Indian diplomats act to take US into confidence and we might see, just like Nuclear Deal they might break some ice with regards to 5th Gen fighters.

Japan & India are coordinating in many areas and US is assisting them to use as counter weight to China, lets wait and see who will blink first as India is also ready to spend $ to get economic mileage.

 

[HariPrasad]

Just a few days after India-Russia inked $5 billion S-400 air defence missile system deal, there were speculations suggesting the US might impose sanctions on India for signing a deal with Russia. Recently, the US has reportedly told India to but F-16s from them in order to get a waiver on sanctions post the Moscow deal.

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• NewsX Bureau
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• Updated
• :
• 20 October 2018,
• 12:50 PM

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File image of F-16


While there were speculations claiming that India might face the US sanctions after they had purchased the S-400 air defence system from Russia, reports suggest that Washington has informally conveyed the New Delhi that they will be able to avoid the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) sanctions if they agree to purchase F-16 aircrafts from the United States. The following development surfaced after India-Russia inked the $5 billion defence deal while the Russian President Vladimir Putin was on his India visit. India’s neighbour Pakistan currently uses the same F-16 fighter jets which have been proposed to India by the US.

As per reports, India has not yet given any assurance on the proposal. Several defence experts suggest that Indis will not be keen in inducting then F-16 fighter jets as they are already being used by the Pakistan Air Force. Soon after India-Russia inked the billion dollar deal, there were reports that the US might impose sanctions on India from inking a deal with Russia. As per a report by Indian Express, the following S-400 deal between Moscow and Delhi led to a long discussion between Nirmala Sitharaman and James Mattis.

The reports further added that an offer to waive CAASTA was made earlier this month. The defence head of India and US had met on the sidelines of Association of Southeast Asian Nations Defence Ministers’ Meeting Plus (ADMM Plus) on Friday. Reports add that even though the deal had been finalised, the US sanctions might get triggered after India makes the payments for the S-400 missile system.

The following development surfaces after the US President Donal Trump, last week, said that India will soon find out the US’ stand on their S-400 deal with Russia.

Pagal ho Gaye hai kya ch***ye? Impose santion if you have power in your back.

 

[Avicenna]

Agreed. I don't think it's lost on India that USA has a history of using its defence equipment as leverage. I think this is the primary reason bcuz India usually acquires in huge numbers. Having American equipment in huge numbers would translate to that much more US influence.

As for F35. Yes India could get it and US would sell it. India can afford the high price tag too. The reason why India wouldn't go for that is bcuz India has already purchased Rafale...and now it wouldn't make much sense(from a logistical point of view) to operate a few squadrons of Rafales and a few squadrons of F35.

Additionally bcuz F35 is the latest cash cow...US wouldn't transfer its production line or anything of that sort to India like its offering for F16. If it happens, it would be an off the shelf purchase with US trying to guard its latest and greatest tech as much as possible and therefore almost zero possibility of any ToT. This would also be an unfavorable outcome since India has been trying to get help from other countries to further its own domestic capability.

IMO these are the reasons India isn't going for F35 for now. This leaves the perfect opportunity for US to try and force F16 for India's new MMRCA.

Uncle Sam is a greedy SOB.

F-16’s now and F-35’s later for the win.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

F16 vs f16 is not going to happen unless you fanticise it. It would rather be f16 block 50/52 vs rafale


They could not stop us buying iranian oil and lately buying s400.moreover we will soon buy four frigates from russia and uncle sam can do nothing abt it except pulling his hair... Yeah and for all those who are dreaming of vintage f16 in india...happy dreamingg


May be you are not so clear about what backstabbing and disloyality means. We never promised them of not buying russian equipments. For the day one we made it clear that we are going for s400 and usa can never ever dictate us like it did to pakistan.As far as paying back is concerned we have surprise coming for americans and uncle sam.. wait and watch

I doubt india has back bone to say otherwise on american dictation. I'll take ur advice and wait to watch. Im doubt india can surprise USA. Usa already thinks they own india as a client state against china.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

The Japanese do not want to take the F-22 route.



PAK FA/FGFA is still active. The decision on it has been postponed to after elections, that's all.

Japan has not yet taken any decision on the F-22/F-35 hybrid offer yet as the price of $177 million/unit was higher than their expectations.

India has pulled out of the SU-57 program. It is just that Russia is hoping that India would rejoin the program.

It all depends on what US would offer vs what Russia would re-offer

i.e US F-22/F-35 Hybrid vs Revised SU-57

Both US Airforce and Japanese Airforce are evaluating F-22/F-35 offers. Let's see if the F-22/F-35 offer will be made to India as India has already rejected the F-35 offer.

India joining this program would help both US & Japan by bringing down the cost significantly as India plans to procure at least 100 of these.


Lockheed Pitching F-22/F-35 Hybrid to US Air Force

• 
  BY MARCUS WEISGERBERGLOBAL BUSINESS EDITORREAD BIO

AUGUST 30, 2018

With a Raptor’s body and the JSF’s brain, the new jet would aim to answer the next decade’s Russian and Chinese threats.

Lockheed Martin is quietly pitching the U.S. Air Force a new variant of the F-22 Raptor, equipped with the F-35’s more modern mission avionics and some structural changes, Defense Onehas learned.

It is one of several options being shopped to the U.S. military and allies as Lockheed explores how it might upgrade its combat jets to counter Russian and Chinese threats anticipated by military officials in the coming decade, according to people with direct knowledge of the plan.

“You’re building a hybrid aircraft,” David Deptula, a retired Air Force lieutenant general who is now dean of the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies. “It’s not an F-22. It’s not an F-35. It’s a combination thereof. That can be done much, much more rapidly than introducing a new design.”

The new variant — similar to one Lockheed is pitching to Japan— would incorporate the F-35’s more modern mission system and “other advancements in the stealth coatings and things of that nature,” according to a person familiar with the proposal.

“There’s a lot of potential in this idea,” Deptula said. “I’m not sugesting that we jump right into it and embrace it, but from the Japanese perspective when they are looking at and willing to invest in this kind of an alternative as opposed to trying to build an indigenous aircraft that’s not going to get close to what an F-22 can already deliver. It’s a smart move on their behalf.”

A Lockheed spokeswoman declined to comment about the project.

The proposal has echoes of the late-1990s evolution of the F/A-18 Hornet into the Super Hornet. Pitched as a low-risk project, the F/A-18E/F turned out to require a redesign of almost every exterior part. The new wing proved initially troublesome, but the design eventually proved successful.

Lockheed’s proposal comes as the Air Force is evaluating its force structure to meet the objectives, missions, and threats laid out in the National Defense Strategy.

The pitch is certain to reignite a longstanding debate: is it better to buy upgraded versions of fourth-generation aircraft such as the F-15 and F-16, or their newer brethren equipped with pricey, hard-to-maintain but effective designs, coatings and electronics?

In July, Defense One reported that Boeing has been quietly shopping a new version of the F-15 Eagle, dubbed the F-15X, designed to carry more bombs and missiles and new electronics. Unlike the F-22 and F-35, it does not have a stealthy design, although advocates for the plane say electronic warfare and other equipment can reduce the risk of being shot down.

People who argue against buying non-stealth aircraft point to this line in NDS: “The Joint Force must be able to strike diverse targets inside adversary air and missile defense networks to destroy mobile power-projection platforms.”

Said the person familiar with Lockheed’s new plane: “You cannot operate a fourth-generation airplane inside those threat scenarios. The move clearly needs to be to fifth-generation airplanes to have any operational capability that’s needed to execute those scenarios.”

Deptula argues that buying upgraded F-22s allows the U.S.military to take an incremental step before buying a radically redesigned sixth-generation fighter jet with technologies that have not yet been proven.

“If you take a look just the general areas of aerodynamics, propulsion, low observability, we have not gotten to the point where we can achieve any order of magnitude increases in any one of those areas beyond where we are [with the] F-22 outer moldline,” Deptula said.

The Air Force has budgeted hundreds of millions of dollars to look at the technologies for its future combat aircraft. Service officials have referred to these efforts as Next Generation Air Dominance or Penetrating Counter Air.

Other Options
Lockheed is also exploring other offering for the U.S. military and its allies, including putting new technology — such as directed energy and electronic attack — on the F-16, F-22 and F-35. Structural changes to F-35 are also being explored.

The offerings are being compiled as part of an internal Lockheed review that looks at ways to better equip its existing warplane and the technologies that will be part of the future combat planes.

The project is being led by Rob Weiss — leader of Lockheed’s storied Skunk Works Advanced Development Programs for the past five years — who is retiring in the coming months.

“If the U.S.[military] wants to move to a next-generation, air dominance airplane there are lots of options,” the person familiar with the company’s plans said.

Lockheed has been looking at ways to modify the F-35. The source said a plan was recently pitched to senior U.S. Navy officials at the company’s Skunk Work headquarters in Palmdale, California. Options include upgrading the engine for power and fuel-efficiency, and other changes that can be made without altering the exterior design.

Lockheed is also pushing the military to buy more F-35s as a way to make sure it has more stealth aircraft in the next decade. Under current plans, the Air Force in 2030 would have about 1,000 fifth-generation F-22s and F-35s and 1,000 F-15s and F-16s.

“If you have to fight one of these scenarios [described in the National Defense Strategy], it’s a high-risk situation that would result in a lot of attrition of those fourth-generation airplanes,” the source said. “It’s questionable whether the U.S. could carry out its objectives in those scenarios. I think the U.S. would prevail, but not without risk.”

If the F-35 production rate was increased to 80 or 100 jets per year, about 80 percent of those 2,000 fighter jets would be fifth-generation planes, the source said.

“That scenario is substantially different,” the person said. “Now you’ve got very high probability of executing your objectives and a much lower attrition scenario where you can basically keep the fourth-generation airplanes out of harm’s way.”

Then there’s the cost argument. Each of the Air Force’s F-35As in the Pentagon’s latest order is expected to cost about $90 million. The Pentagon has said it wants that cost to drop another $10 million per plane by 2020.

Deptula said the falling price of the F-35 eliminates one argument for buying new versions of the F-15 or F-16.

“As Air Force planner, you’re interested in being able to meet not just the existing, but potential anticipated threats of the future,” Deptula said. “While some might postulate that there may fiscal or monetary advantages, frankly I don’t even see that argument holding much water.

“The kind of individual unit costs that we’re talking about for rebuilding and producing new, old airplanes virtually match the price curve of new F-35s,” he said. “I’m having a hard time understanding what the value proposition is if I’m an Air Force planner trying to recapitalize a geriatric Air Force.”

Marcus Weisgerber is the global business editor for Defense One, where he writes about the intersection of business and national security. He has been covering defense and national security issues for more than a decade, previously as Pentagon correspondent for Defense News and chief editor of ... FULL BIO

https://www.defenseone.com/business/2018/08/lockheed-pitching-f-22f-35-hybrid-us-air-force/150943/

 

[thesolar65]

I can see three Fs(F-16, 18 and 35) in the discussion so far......but why not F-15?

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

I can see three Fs(F-16, 18 and 35) in the discussion so far......but why not F-15?

India does not need another 4+ gen Air Superiority heavy weight fighter. This was reason why India was never interested in the Russian SU-35s. Super Sukhois upgrade would make SU-35 and F-15 fighters redundant.

India is looking for a 5th generation Air Superiority Stealth fighter.

It would either be US' F-22/F-35 hybrid or Russian SU-57 (enhanced)

Rafale already satisfies the 4++ gen MMRCA requirement.

 

[randomradio]

Japan has not yet taken any decision on the F-22/F-35 hybrid offer yet as the price of $177 million/unit was higher than their expectations.

The Japanese do not want the F-22 with F-35 avionics since it's outdated and poses procurement problems.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/japan-wont-build-super-f-22-or-new-f-15-after-all-33781

India has pulled out of the SU-57 program. It is just that Russia is hoping that India would rejoin the program.

No, it's still active. We never left, but we haven't made a decision either, so work on FGFA has stopped since mid 2013.

We are waiting for PAK FA to mature and the definitive engine to start flying before we make a decision on FGFA. We basically want the Russians to commit to their own program first, before we pony up the monies. It obviously doesn't make sense for us to buy FGFA in triple digits when the Russians themselves are yet to order any.

Let's see if the F-22/F-35 offer will be made to India as India has already rejected the F-35 offer.

The IAF is not interested in any American jet, neither the F-22/F-35 hybrid, nor the F-35. Both jets do not suite our environment since they do not have enough range. And of course, by the time we get these jets, they will be outdated, so our only way forward is a development program.

Only the PCA could interest us. But the Americans won't be offering that.

 

[Basel]

That problem will remain with any fighter the Indians buy from the Yanks. The Yanks have no way out of this other than bullying India out of the S-400 deal.

LOL the Indians would be crazy to buy any F-16 configuration. What an incredible dillema for the USA. This is fascinating.

The better way to stop India from buying S-400 is to threat them sale of THAAD & PAC-3MSE to Pakistan along with release of funds and equipment on hold with possible sale of 18 F-16-B70 and used F-16s to Pakistan. It will work.