''Blinders'' Played Crucial Role in PAF Assault

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The chances of the J10C being purchased have increased by the 27/2/19 Air war, the lobbying by PAF and China predates this incident and has only increased.

Numbers am hearing is 36 to 72 depending on finances and financial package.

The PAF would want them to replace the mirages and would have had them carry the SOW on the 27th with also EW and A to A role.

But wider enabling would still be a good idea. Maybe explore configuring some fighters into swing-role dedicated jamming assets (ala Growler). I'd also think about smaller in-flight refueling tankers (e.g. An-178 or KC-390) to allow for more JF-17s to stay in the air longer.

 

[Path-Finder]

The chances of the J10C being purchased have increased by the 27/2/19 Air war, the lobbying by PAF and China predates this incident and has only increased.

Numbers am hearing is 36 to 72 depending on finances and financial package.

The PAF would want them to replace the mirages and would have had them carry the SOW on the 27th with also EW and A to A role.

I pray that is the case!

 

[Skyliner]

Their fare share for sure. I don't exactly know when they first entered into service, I want to say early 2000s, but they do fly a lot. In 2017 they flew twenty intelligence gather sorties against Russia and last year that number increased to around 25-30. They get used for their intended purpose often. They also play enemy during NATO drills and NEMO trials (That's NATO Electro-Magnetic Operations testings) and these are routine.

But they are well maintained and heavily modernized since their role in the RNoAF is vital and unique.

Just two for electronic warfare and one for VIP transit.

We're replacing both our two DA-20 electronic support aircraft and six P-3C/Ns with a Norwegianized variant of the P-8, so both types will be put up for transfer/sale in the next few years.

Any chance of getting Globaleye aewc!

 

[denel]

My quick analysis of the 27th and I could be very wrong since I have pieced this via multiple sources and other ideas here:

JF-17s are not capable of deploying the raptors as it is a datalinked system needing course correction via a dedicated WSO @denel

15sq carried out the strikes with JF-17 escorting them and striking(presumed) across the border. F-16s provided both High and low altitude BARCAP(Barrier Combat Air Patrol) on our side with DA-20 support embedded. The idea being that once the guidance ships for the Raptor crossed in along with their escorts- the F-16s would act “defensively” to prevent Indian interceptors from engaging this flight and from breaching the LoC.

Indian AEW was completing the patrol( for some reason the Phalcons are either having servicibility issues or their local DRDO AEW is performing their primary duties) but their AEW asset was exiting its patrol racetrack circuit.

The Indians detected the strike only after it crossed the LoC and vectored their CAPs of SU-30s at us while scrambling the Migs at Srinagar since they were on Alert status- Su-30s do not have infrastructure to be forward deployed yet and unsuitable for interceptions at this point. Mig-29s are based towards central Punjab .
Indian coverage still showed them the strike package and higher BARCAP so they positioned their Su-30s accordingly and tried to focus on launching volleys of BVRs to put the higher BARCAP F-16s defensive while others would hunt the strike force.
As they approached the DA-20 and the ALQ-211 went alive and prevented them from getting a lock. Low level F-16s zoom climbed as well and soon the Flankers are facing BVR volleys instead of delivering them. One radar signature is reported to have disappeared from both the Erieye and F-16 sensors and hence presumed to have be shot down. Whether it was a kill or not and type depends upon wreckage or otherwise.

Concurrently, The Migs too were in the air, but as they were being vectored towards a target under jamming they encountered both F-16s rushing towards them from our side sending an AMRAAM while a JF-17 embedeed escort also engaged.

WC Abhinandan is chasing the target given to him by GCI before his comms are compromised but his wingman bugs out? (Did the wingman abandon his leader or was unaware that the flight lead has not heard the warnings)

By the time the Su-30s regroup(probably in stress and out of fuel- they do not fly with full fuel since full jets are actually terrible at maneuvering that well) and return.
No further interceptors are scrambled until PAF assets return which points to IAF GCI wanted to preserve assets from facing outnumbered odds or not having suitable replacements available.

@Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @araz @Tps43
@Windjammer

Ocscar.. not correct on the Raptor. There are two modes. One is course correction via a frequency hopping secure link but the other is self guided fire and forget. Both can be done - the later is no brainer with JF-17; first will need inclusion of secure datalink/freq hoppers on jf-17.

 

[sneakerspark]

@Oscar The only thing i can confirm is 15th Sqn mirages were used to engage ground targets using SOWs. Rest of the account is based on what we have learned so far from different sources. It could be entirely true, partially true or completely false. But that seems to be must accurate account so far.

 

[Falcon26]

@araz from all the info I can gather from Indian media I speculate this was the first target of PAF in Naushera sector. Narian Ammo and Supply center of IAF. You want longitude and latitude I have them as well.

View attachment 549984

@araz this is the second bomb drop site by PAF in Rajouri sector this was confirmed by India.

View attachment 549986

@araz I dont have any confirmation on this target Just going through media reports this is the third Target at bhimber Gali.

View attachment 549987

To me it looks like PAF did a bombing run from south to north and then existed over Kotli Pakistan.

@araz if I consider Indian media reports of initial hours This is the whole picture I can come up with. On top right where it is reported that Mi-17 and first report Mig-21 bison crashed in Budgam looks like a BVR kill. Abhinandan made the intercept over North east of kotli while PAF strike package was existing over bhimber gali and he was dropped there. In my opinion the wing man of Abhinandan was the first casulity of war as soon as he was wheels up with a BVR kill by Noman Ali and Hassan Saddiqui took out Abhinandan over Kotli with WVR. MI-17 got hit by a Pakistani BVR as well. Budgam had 2 crashes.

This speculation with info available.

View attachment 549988

Excellent post. Can moderators please pin this post?

What does that prove?
Show me a link to official PAF statement stating Wg Cdr. Nauman ALi was involved in the air battles or he shot down any plane? Air chief could be congratulating him for a 1000 different reasons.
Indians are just clutching at straws

Your FM mentioned him in the floors of parliament

 

[ARMalik]

Although this talk of J-10C procurement is justified, the question we need answering is that what value can J-10C add to PAF which the Mirages are not adding? A few things to consider:

-There are over 100 Mirages ROSE upgraded aircrafts in the PAF.

-There is no aircraft in existing IAF inventory or PAF that can match the acceleration and speed of these Mirages at Mach 2.2. In the recent conflict, the Mirages went in and after dropping their bombs, made an exit from 30,000 feet. With their speed, and dropping down from altitude of 30,000 feet - it was virtually impossible for IAF to catch these things.

-The Mirages are used for Naval strikes.

What difference can 36 J-10C make? And how can these few machines replace over more than 100 mirages? And if J-10C are only going to partially replace Mirages, then why introduce another Aircraft and increases logistical and training challenges?

 

[Slides]

What does that prove?
Show me a link to official PAF statement stating Wg Cdr. Nauman ALi was involved in the air battles or he shot down any plane? Air chief could be congratulating him for a 1000 different reasons.
Indians are just clutching at straws

He was mentioned by FM Quershi

 

[BHarwana]

Is Bhimbargali the brigade HQ where Bipin was during the PAF strike?

Bipin would be at rajouri I think.

 

[Shane]

New American weapons are compatible with American systems only. Their source code is not shared except with Israel.

The 60s or even up to 80s was a different story. That is why PAF F-16 cant carry any non-American weapon.

Hi there, I totally get what you are saying but Raptors on JF17s are not completely out of the question.

You do get that @Windjammer has an angle to his post. I am merely harping at the possibility that a FOX3 Maddog is doable viz a viz JF17...a self guided fire and forget Raptor as explained in the next post:

Apart from a learned discussion about source code/ radar integration hassles, isn't a Fox Three Maddog seeking a bvr target using it's own radar, also a fire and forget missile much like a sidewinder with a longer range and obvious enhancements.

In theory, the missile uses radar information to fly on an interception course to the target using its built-in INS. This information is generally obtained using the launching aircraft's radar, but it could come from an IRST system, from a Data link from another fighter aircraft, or from an AWACS.

So in theory, it isn't such a far fetched possibility after all Or am I way off the target and completely wrong?

I think Indian Media should look into this menacing and devious act of PAF, it sure must be a violation of how PAF can use AMRAAMs...imagine hundreds of JF17s capable of flying with not just SD10s and PL15s but also AIM-120s.

Kindly ponder the following opinion besides my guess:

Ocscar.. not correct on the Raptor. There are two modes. One is course correction via a frequency hopping secure link but the other is self guided fire and forget. Both can be done - the later is no brainer with JF-17; first will need inclusion of secure datalink/freq hoppers on jf-17.

XxxxxxxxxxxxxxX

@araz from all the info I can gather from Indian media I speculate this was the first target of PAF in Naushera sector. Narian Ammo and Supply center of IAF. You want longitude and latitude I have them as well.

View attachment 549984

@araz this is the second bomb drop site by PAF in Rajouri sector this was confirmed by India.

View attachment 549986

@araz I dont have any confirmation on this target Just going through media reports this is the third Target at bhimber Gali.

View attachment 549987

To me it looks like PAF did a bombing run from south to north and then existed over Kotli Pakistan.

@araz if I consider Indian media reports of initial hours This is the whole picture I can come up with. On top right where it is reported that Mi-17 and first report Mig-21 bison crashed in Budgam looks like a BVR kill. Abhinandan made the intercept over North east of kotli while PAF strike package was existing over bhimber gali and he was dropped there. In my opinion the wing man of Abhinandan was the first casulity of war as soon as he was wheels up with a BVR kill by Noman Ali and Hassan Saddiqui took out Abhinandan over Kotli with WVR. MI-17 got hit by a Pakistani BVR as well. Budgam had 2 crashes.

This speculation with info available.

View attachment 549988

Great work and an excellent post brother.

 

[crankthatskunk]

PAF No 24 Squadron equipped with Dassault Falcon DA 20 EWF aircraft , reportedly played a crucial role in PAF's strikes on Indian targets last month.
The citation reads.

On Feb 27th 2019, PAF struck Indian targets in IoK in response to their aggression across Pakistan's AJK. PAF strike package included Mirage Vs, F-16s, JF-17s, AWACS and Falcon ELINT aircrafts. It is widely believed that Falcon ECM played a pivotal role in denying missile locks from SU-30MKI and MiG-21 Bisons on PAF air assets and gave PAF striking capability on them. It rendered superior SU-30MKI and MiG-21 Bars and Elta radars respectively, useless, and hence their wreckage was found lying from West towards East having been shot down by SD-10S and AIM-120C5 from PAF aircrafts.

The way PAF had full air superiority in Indian theater was indicative of the role of ECM capabilities of PAF.
That fact gives me firm belief that the Second Bison and Mi17 were PAF's kills too. They had to be to deny space and opportunities to the Indians. Otherwise, it would defeat the purpose of ECM and denying missile locks from the Indian assets.

 

[Adam_Khan]

Finally someone is telling the truth.

Guys, for the last time F16s downed the Indian jets and the heli. Jf17 only protected the Mirage strike package, once Indians scrambled and violated our airspace, F16s on CAP mission engaged and downed them.

 

[Dazzler]

My quick analysis of the 27th and I could be very wrong since I have pieced this via multiple sources and other ideas here:

JF-17s are not capable of deploying the raptors as it is a datalinked system needing course correction via a dedicated WSO @denel

15sq carried out the strikes with JF-17 escorting them and striking(presumed) across the border. F-16s provided both High and low altitude BARCAP(Barrier Combat Air Patrol) on our side with DA-20 support embedded. The idea being that once the guidance ships for the Raptor crossed in along with their escorts- the F-16s would act “defensively” to prevent Indian interceptors from engaging this flight and from breaching the LoC.

Indian AEW was completing the patrol( for some reason the Phalcons are either having servicibility issues or their local DRDO AEW is performing their primary duties) but their AEW asset was exiting its patrol racetrack circuit.

The Indians detected the strike only after it crossed the LoC and vectored their CAPs of SU-30s at us while scrambling the Migs at Srinagar since they were on Alert status- Su-30s do not have infrastructure to be forward deployed yet and unsuitable for interceptions at this point. Mig-29s are based towards central Punjab .
Indian coverage still showed them the strike package and higher BARCAP so they positioned their Su-30s accordingly and tried to focus on launching volleys of BVRs to put the higher BARCAP F-16s defensive while others would hunt the strike force.
As they approached the DA-20 and the ALQ-211 went alive and prevented them from getting a lock. Low level F-16s zoom climbed as well and soon the Flankers are facing BVR volleys instead of delivering them. One radar signature is reported to have disappeared from both the Erieye and F-16 sensors and hence presumed to have be shot down. Whether it was a kill or not and type depends upon wreckage or otherwise.

Concurrently, The Migs too were in the air, but as they were being vectored towards a target under jamming they encountered both F-16s rushing towards them from our side sending an AMRAAM while a JF-17 embedeed escort also engaged.

WC Abhinandan is chasing the target given to him by GCI before his comms are compromised but his wingman bugs out? (Did the wingman abandon his leader or was unaware that the flight lead has not heard the warnings)

By the time the Su-30s regroup(probably in stress and out of fuel- they do not fly with full fuel since full jets are actually terrible at maneuvering that well) and return.
No further interceptors are scrambled until PAF assets return which points to IAF GCI wanted to preserve assets from facing outnumbered odds or not having suitable replacements available.

@Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @araz @Tps43
@Windjammer

Nicely put up, i was about to have a write up on that too, but stopped.

Two cent worth:

- Blinders, 211, 500P and Erieye are really as powerful at ECM/ ESM. Jamming, or even spoofing a PESA was achieved without much effort.

- I assume the PAF employed spoofing at best and not barrage jamming just to get the enemy confused with RWRs and radar going mad from time to time.

- I seriously dont buy the radio jamming theory. Think about it, a simple FH radio would have done better. Dont tell me they dont have those in mkis and Bisons, or do they? I think they were outsmarted and outgunned by PAF. The drama of Abhi none not being able to listen to radio calls is another face saving excuse as mentioned by @Bilal Khan 777

The whole episode was very well planned and coordinated by PAF, and things were bungled up by the IAF. They were complacent, caught napping, didnt have enough assets available, and had no answer to the complete strike package in for that moment.
Their AWACS coverage was inadequate, as Phalcons spend most of their time at the maintenance depot.

They did the wise thing by retreating! The whole episode should serve as an eye opener for the IAF. Too many gaps in their capabilities, shortcomings resulted in embarrassment, and a sacked Air marshal.

 

[Tps43]

The Indians detected the strike only after it crossed the LoC and vectored their CAPs of SU-30s at us while scrambling the Migs at Srinagar since they were on Alert status- Su-30s do not have infrastructure to be forward deployed yet and unsuitable for interceptions at this point. Mig-29s are based towards central Punjab .

Indians gave reaction from every possible base , remember once during ops in a very small pocket there were 25 AC’s .

WC Abhinandan is chasing the target given to him by GCI before his comms are compromised but his wingman bugs out? (Did the wingman abandon his leader or was unaware that the flight lead has not heard the warnings)

Abhinandhan’s wingman is not anymore
The biggest mistake of abhinandhan was not to follow Controller’s direction who asked him to turn left but abhinandhan listened to su30 who said to him turn right it was a perfect text book kill for paf

And the Su30 kill was last in encounter during op

I seriously dont buy the radio jamming theory. Think about it, a simple FH radio would have done better. Dont tell me they dont have those in mkis and Bisons, or do they? I think they were outsmarted and outgunned by PAF. The drama of Abhi none not being able to listen to radio calls is another face saving excuse as mentioned by @Bilal Khan 777

It was done by almighty that abhinandhan’s RT was not working properly and there was too much noise even tho there was no jamming of any kind being done in the area

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I would prefer that we do not discuss anything about the EW of this event. This is to protect vital information.