''Blinders'' Played Crucial Role in PAF Assault

[TOPGUN]

is that enough to cover the needs for EW requirements?

A few more cant hurt, but this what we have at the current moment. I would love to see at-least 3 more total 6 would be good enough.

 

[GumNaam]

Bollocks.

The C5 went up a Su's arse.

ok.

 

[Ali_Baba]

It is an OLD platform both by age and capability. PAF needs to replace this as it wont have many useful years left.

 

[aziqbal]

No doubt Pakistan used full spectrum of assets

 

[BHarwana]

@araz from all the info I can gather from Indian media I speculate this was the first target of PAF in Naushera sector. Narian Ammo and Supply center of IAF. You want longitude and latitude I have them as well.

@araz this is the second bomb drop site by PAF in Rajouri sector this was confirmed by India.

@araz I dont have any confirmation on this target Just going through media reports this is the third Target at bhimber Gali.

To me it looks like PAF did a bombing run from south to north and then existed over Kotli Pakistan.

@araz if I consider Indian media reports of initial hours This is the whole picture I can come up with. On top right where it is reported that Mi-17 and first report Mig-21 bison crashed in Budgam looks like a BVR kill. Abhinandan made the intercept over North east of kotli while PAF strike package was existing over bhimber gali and he was dropped there. In my opinion the wing man of Abhinandan was the first casulity of war as soon as he was wheels up with a BVR kill by Noman Ali and Hassan Saddiqui took out Abhinandan over Kotli with WVR. MI-17 got hit by a Pakistani BVR as well. Budgam had 2 crashes.

This speculation with info available.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Someone outta start a poll on PDF just to get everyones opinion once & for all if the F-16's were used... Let the results (among us) speak for itself.

Officially, we didn't use them - however, the PAF Officer (Retd.) who appeared on last nites India Today said something interesting which kind of surprised me (as well).

I think the reason why ISPR said that no F16s were used was bcuz only JF17s were used to carry out strikes with H2/H4. F16s and other assets must've been on high alert and patrolling in case if IAF jets respond to Pak's strikes, which they did and then were shot down.

So in short F16s werent used in the strike mission but when IAF gave chase, F16s were used to shoot them down. That's just my opinion based on all the news that has come out so far.

 

[Trailer23]

I think the reason why ISPR said that no F16s were used was bcuz only JF17s were used to carry out strikes with H2/H4. F16s and other assets must've been on high alert and patrolling in case if IAF jets respond to Pak's strikes, which they did and then were shot down.

So in short F16s werent used in the strike mission but when IAF gave chase, F16s were used to shoot them down. That's just my opinion based on all the news that has come out so far.

I second your thought..., entirely.

Although most of the guys feel otherwise.

 

[Slides]

Everyone needs to stop obsessing about which asset was used. Indians will cry no matter what. Right now they are complaining to the Swedes, French and South Africans. It is in their nature to always consider others as inferior.

 

[Jinn Baba]

@araz from all the info I can gather from Indian media I speculate this was the first target of PAF in Naushera sector. Narian Ammo and Supply center of IAF. You want longitude and latitude I have them as well.

View attachment 549984

@araz this is the second bomb drop site by PAF in Rajouri sector this was confirmed by India.

View attachment 549986

@araz I dont have any confirmation on this target Just going through media reports this is the third Target at bhimber Gali.

View attachment 549987

To me it looks like PAF did a bombing run from south to north and then existed over Kotli Pakistan.

@araz if I consider Indian media reports of initial hours This is the whole picture I can come up with. On top right where it is reported that Mi-17 and first report Mig-21 bison crashed in Budgam looks like a BVR kill. Abhinandan made the intercept over North east of kotli while PAF strike package was existing over bhimber gali and he was dropped there. In my opinion the wing man of Abhinandan was the first casulity of war as soon as he was wheels up with a BVR kill by Noman Ali and Hassan Saddiqui took out Abhinandan over Kotli with WVR. MI-17 got hit by a Pakistani BVR as well. Budgam had 2 crashes.

This speculation with info available.

View attachment 549988

Is Bhimbargali the brigade HQ where Bipin was during the PAF strike?

 

[Fenrir]

How much nautical mileage do they have?

Their fare share for sure. I don't exactly know when they first entered into service, I want to say early 2000s, but they do fly a lot. In 2017 they flew twenty intelligence gather sorties against Russia and last year that number increased to around 25-30. They get used for their intended purpose often. They also play enemy during NATO drills and NEMO trials (That's NATO Electro-Magnetic Operations testings) and these are routine.

But they are well maintained and heavily modernized since their role in the RNoAF is vital and unique.

Thanks so much for sharing, how many do you guys have?

Just two for electronic warfare and one for VIP transit.

We're replacing both our two DA-20 electronic support aircraft and six P-3C/Ns with a Norwegianized variant of the P-8, so both types will be put up for transfer/sale in the next few years.

 

[airmarshal]

Maybe we have mated it with JF-17.

May be not.

Pakistan did not buy F-16s for air shows or joint exercises. They are are to used in combat. Let rona dhona not influence your opinion.

Finally someone throws the much needed googlee since it all panned out ... Just imagine the pangs of Indian media when they get the whiff of it

AMRAAMs, After all, if we can mate the sidewinder to the Chinese F6 in the 60s then what is stopping us in this day and age.

Real good one windy merits a separate thread...

New American weapons are compatible with American systems only. Their source code is not shared except with Israel.

The 60s or even up to 80s was a different story. That is why PAF F-16 cant carry any non-American weapon.

 

[SQ8]

I think the reason why ISPR said that no F16s were used was bcuz only JF17s were used to carry out strikes with H2/H4. F16s and other assets must've been on high alert and patrolling in case if IAF jets respond to Pak's strikes, which they did and then were shot down.

So in short F16s werent used in the strike mission but when IAF gave chase, F16s were used to shoot them down. That's just my opinion based on all the news that has come out so far.

My quick analysis of the 27th and I could be very wrong since I have pieced this via multiple sources and other ideas here:

JF-17s are not capable of deploying the raptors as it is a datalinked system needing course correction via a dedicated WSO @denel

15sq carried out the strikes with JF-17 escorting them and striking(presumed) across the border. F-16s provided both High and low altitude BARCAP(Barrier Combat Air Patrol) on our side with DA-20 support embedded. The idea being that once the guidance ships for the Raptor crossed in along with their escorts- the F-16s would act “defensively” to prevent Indian interceptors from engaging this flight and from breaching the LoC.

Indian AEW was completing the patrol( for some reason the Phalcons are either having servicibility issues or their local DRDO AEW is performing their primary duties) but their AEW asset was exiting its patrol racetrack circuit.

The Indians detected the strike only after it crossed the LoC and vectored their CAPs of SU-30s at us while scrambling the Migs at Srinagar since they were on Alert status- Su-30s do not have infrastructure to be forward deployed yet and unsuitable for interceptions at this point. Mig-29s are based towards central Punjab .
Indian coverage still showed them the strike package and higher BARCAP so they positioned their Su-30s accordingly and tried to focus on launching volleys of BVRs to put the higher BARCAP F-16s defensive while others would hunt the strike force.
As they approached the DA-20 and the ALQ-211 went alive and prevented them from getting a lock. Low level F-16s zoom climbed as well and soon the Flankers are facing BVR volleys instead of delivering them. One radar signature is reported to have disappeared from both the Erieye and F-16 sensors and hence presumed to have be shot down. Whether it was a kill or not and type depends upon wreckage or otherwise.

Concurrently, The Migs too were in the air, but as they were being vectored towards a target under jamming they encountered both F-16s rushing towards them from our side sending an AMRAAM while a JF-17 embedeed escort also engaged.

WC Abhinandan is chasing the target given to him by GCI before his comms are compromised but his wingman bugs out? (Did the wingman abandon his leader or was unaware that the flight lead has not heard the warnings)

By the time the Su-30s regroup(probably in stress and out of fuel- they do not fly with full fuel since full jets are actually terrible at maneuvering that well) and return.
No further interceptors are scrambled until PAF assets return which points to IAF GCI wanted to preserve assets from facing outnumbered odds or not having suitable replacements available.

@Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @araz @Tps43
@Windjammer

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

My quick analysis of the 27th and I could be very wrong since I have pieced this via multiple sources and other ideas here:

JF-17s are not capable of deploying the raptors as it is a datalinked system needing course correction via a dedicated WSO @denel

15sq carried out the strikes with JF-17 escorting them and striking(presumed) across the border. F-16s provided both High and low altitude BARCAP(Barrier Combat Air Patrol) on our side with DA-20 support embedded. The idea being that once the guidance ships for the Raptor crossed in along with their escorts- the F-16s would act “defensively” to prevent Indian interceptors from engaging this flight and from breaching the LoC.

Indian AEW was completing the patrol( for some reason the Phalcons are either having servicibility issues or their local DRDO AEW is performing their primary duties) but their AEW asset was exiting its patrol racetrack circuit.

The Indians detected the strike only after it crossed the LoC and vectored their CAPs of SU-30s at us while scrambling the Migs at Srinagar since they were on Alert status- Su-30s do not have infrastructure to be forward deployed yet and unsuitable for interceptions at this point. Mig-29s are based towards central Punjab .
Indian coverage still showed them the strike package and higher BARCAP so they positioned their Su-30s accordingly and tried to focus on launching volleys of BVRs to put the higher BARCAP F-16s defensive while others would hunt the strike force.
As they approached the DA-20 and the ALQ-211 went alive and prevented them from getting a lock. Low level F-16s zoom climbed as well and soon the Flankers are facing BVR volleys instead of delivering them. One radar signature is reported to have disappeared from both the Erieye and F-16 sensors and hence presumed to have be shot down. Whether it was a kill or not and type depends upon wreckage or otherwise.

Concurrently, The Migs too were in the air, but as they were being vectored towards a target under jamming they encountered both F-16s rushing towards them from our side sending an AMRAAM while a JF-17 embedeed escort also engaged.

WC Abhinandan is chasing the target given to him by GCI before his comms are compromised but his wingman bugs out? (Did the wingman abandon his leader or was unaware that the flight lead has not heard the warnings)

By the time the Su-30s regroup(probably in stress and out of fuel- they do not fly with full fuel since full jets are actually terrible at maneuvering that well) and return.
No further interceptors are scrambled until PAF assets return which points to IAF GCI wanted to preserve assets from facing outnumbered odds or not having suitable replacements available.

@Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @araz @Tps43
@Windjammer

If your budget is too tight for another off-the-shelf fighter, then your next step moving forward is to further enable the JF-17s via more dedicated stand-off EW/ECM and AEW&C. The concept worked, so the next step should be to ensure redundancies in case of attrition, maintenance, etc.

That said, the JF-17 Block-III with its integrated EW/ECM, AESA radar (speculated to be 170-180 km in range) and, I presume, a longer range AAM could add another dimension to this situation. If anything, it takes what the IAF had hoped re: the MiG-21bis vis-a-vis F-16, but flips it to the Rafale vis-a-vis the Block-III.

 

[Thorough Pro]

What does that prove?
Show me a link to official PAF statement stating Wg Cdr. Nauman ALi was involved in the air battles or he shot down any plane? Air chief could be congratulating him for a 1000 different reasons.
Indians are just clutching at straws

The PAF Gentleman's name is Sultan Ali & he kind of backtracks on his words after DG ISPR's footage is shown. So one can leave the possibility of reasonable doubt (at that point).

The language, the host himself (Rahul) used & that of one of his guest is quite appalling so I urge everyone avoid that b.s.

The only thing that raised an eyebrow for me, well before this debate took place yesterday was the image & footage of ACM congratulating Wg Cdr. Nauman Ali Khan. In it he's wearing the 2000 hrs patch of the F-16. That was something that I picked up 3 weeks ago.

Anyways, Timecode - 30:30

 

[Rafi]

If your budget is too tight for another off-the-shelf fighter, then your next step moving forward is to further enable the JF-17s via more dedicated stand-off EW/ECM and AEW&C. The concept worked, so the next step should be to ensure redundancies in case of attrition, maintenance, etc.

That said, the JF-17 Block-III with its integrated EW/ECM, AESA radar (speculated to be 170-180 km in range) and, I presume, a longer range AAM could add another dimension to this situation. If anything, it takes what the IAF had hoped re: the MiG-21bis vis-a-vis F-16, but flips it to the Rafale vis-a-vis the Block-III.

The chances of the J10C being purchased have increased by the 27/2/19 Air war, the lobbying by PAF and China predates this incident and has only increased.

Numbers am hearing is 36 to 72 depending on finances and financial package.

The PAF would want them to replace the mirages and would have had them carry the SOW on the 27th with also EW and A to A role.