ASEAN as Defence Bloc?

[KS]

Anti China means you become closer with the US and further away from SCO and Islamic world. There are no 'best of both worlds' scenarios and Indian leaders know it which is why they actively pursue an invitation to join SCO which is funnily enough led by China and Russia. I actually think India is strongly pursueing great ties with China because they know that they are neck deep in sh1t such as Islamic militancy, naxalites, North East Separatists, Pakistan, malnourishment etc so they don't want any more crap on their plate which is understandable.

Thats Bull ****. None of the Islamic world wants you supporting Assad the butcher too. And the flagbearers of the Islamic world, the Arabs are the biggest allies of US in the region. SO much for your theory that becoming pro-US would take India further from the Islamic countries.

*I could not give a damn if the Islamic world moves away from India. They are nobodys to me. But the point is, being anti-china means only being anti-china. There is no other dimension involved in it.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

How can a mess become a defence bloc???

 

[Viet]

Correct.

Singapore's relationship with China is deep than it meet the eyes and of course, which I forgot to mention before, Singapore has to act the part of Israel in order to main a strong alliance with China. Being a small player and an economic oriented nation I don't think China minds for Singapore to keep the existing good relationship with the US. But if the two big boys are at each others throats then Singapore must chooses China or act as middleman between them.

Not to disrespect Vietnam, I think your country still have a way to go before she can assume the leadership role among the ASEAN nation in terms of defense alliance and if such alliance is to be made today, Indonesia obviously will dominated. A strong army, in this sense, need a strong economy to back it up and Indonesia is clearly has the upper hand economically and politically.

As some posters mentioned before a military alliance without a common perceived enemy is hard to hold water. A region alliance between a few players within ASEAN would also viewed suspiciously.

You are right about the link between economy and military. If we could find supports for our army, we could put more money into the economy.
What do you think what is our intention why we agree with Singapore and Indonesia for establishing a strategic partnership?

I disagree to a leading role of Indonesia. Unrealistic.

perceived enemy?
The People Daily - the official newspaper of the Communist Party of China has named who is the enemy: Vietnam, the Philippines, and Malaysia!

China's strategy for development of resources in S. China Sea
September 19, 2012

The United States has taken firm steps to "return to Asia," making it unrealistic to expect the superpower to stay out of the South China Sea issue. However, China can still deal with or even counterbalance the United States through certain measures, including joining forces with Russia and enhancing cooperation with U.S. oil companies in developing oil resources in the South China Sea to increase common interests with the United States.

Striking down enemies one by one is China's core strategy for dealing with the other five countries that each claim parts of the South China Sea. As Indonesia and Brunei's sovereignty claims have little overlap with China's nine-dotted line, and the two countries have not issued any clear territorial claims, China can increase investment and support for the two countries.

As for Vietnam, the Philippines, and Malaysia, China can impose economic sanctions against them and restrict imports from the three countries through a variety of trade measures. If China can bring huge economic losses to these risk takers and weaken the leadership of their ruling parties, these countries will definitely return to the negotiating table. The real victory in safeguarding territorial waters and natural resources is not defeating enemies, but intimidating them into not initiating a vicious game with China over oil and gas resources in the South China Sea in the first place.

http://english.people.com.cn/102774/7953043.html

 

[kalu_miah]

China's strategy for development of resources in S. China Sea
September 19, 2012

The United States has taken firm steps to "return to Asia," making it unrealistic to expect the superpower to stay out of the South China Sea issue. However, China can still deal with or even counterbalance the United States through certain measures, including joining forces with Russia and enhancing cooperation with U.S. oil companies in developing oil resources in the South China Sea to increase common interests with the United States.

Striking down enemies one by one is China's core strategy for dealing with the other five countries that each claim parts of the South China Sea. As Indonesia and Brunei's sovereignty claims have little overlap with China's nine-dotted line, and the two countries have not issued any clear territorial claims, China can increase investment and support for the two countries.

As for Vietnam, the Philippines, and Malaysia, China can impose economic sanctions against them and restrict imports from the three countries through a variety of trade measures. If China can bring huge economic losses to these risk takers and weaken the leadership of their ruling parties, these countries will definitely return to the negotiating table. The real victory in safeguarding territorial waters and natural resources is not defeating enemies, but intimidating them into not initiating a vicious game with China over oil and gas resources in the South China Sea in the first place.

China's strategy for development of resources in S. China Sea (2) - People's Daily Online

I like the Chinese plan of linking trade with strategic interest. If only we could convince all countries of the world, specially the West to do the same, then both China and India would be more careful and mature about things.

Milton Friedman's uregulated free market extremism has got to go and make way for "Strategic Trade".

 

[Viet]

I like the Chinese plan of linking trade with strategic interest. If only we could convince all countries of the world, specially the West to do the same, then both China and India would be more careful and mature about things.

Milton Friedman's uregulated free market extremism has got to go and make way for "Strategic Trade".

After Japan, Vietnam, the Phlippines and Malaysia are the next targets.
Who is next? India?

He's probably in command otherwise he wouldn't say something like that.

No, I´m just a computer engineer working for a German company.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

After Japan, Vietnam, the Phlippines and Malaysia are the next targets.
Who is next? India?

India is certainly amongst the list

No, I´m just a computer engineer working for a German company.

Programmer?

 

[djsjs]

After Japan, Vietnam, the Phlippines and Malaysia are the next targets.
Who is next? India?

Your logic is messy.

You should know that the US-led West hate the Communist Party.Let us recall what they did in socialist countries,They chopped the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia.They subvert Eastern Europe.They launched an attack on North Korea and Vietnam.They blocked Cuba.They obstruct the reunification of China.

Let's assume that you do not have a neighbor called China. what would happen?would vietcong survive in the US-Vietnam War？ if lucky enough to survive，what kind of disaster would occur?maybe the best expect is vietnam spring. how about the worst? endless war.......
go on to assume if our govt is pushed off one day. what is the next ?will vietnam still vietnam?

thank godness China bless you!

 

[Viet]

Your logic is messy.

You should know that the US-led West hate the Communist Party.Let us recall what they did in socialist countries,They chopped the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia.They subvert Eastern Europe.They launched an attack on North Korea and Vietnam.They blocked Cuba.They obstruct the reunification of China.

Let's assume that you do not have a neighbor called China. what would happen?would vietcong survive in the US-Vietnam War？ if lucky enough to survive，what kind of disaster would occur?maybe the best expect is vietnam spring. how about the worst? endless war.......
go on to assume if our govt is pushed off one day. what is the next ?will vietnam still vietnam?

thank godness China bless you!

Sorry to say you are an idiot. Your arguments are insane. Where do you learn history?

From our point of view, for those who commited war crimes and atrocities in Vietnam, all deserved a place in the hell!
That includes former leaders and soldiers from Imperial Japan, France, America, Pol Pot Cambodia and China, and all of their supporters. But we are ready to forget and forgive. If China continues bullying Vietnam, we have no choice but fight.

Or do you mean if China sees us as enemy as blessing for us?

India is certainly amongst the list

Programmer?

Network engineer

 

[Anonymous user]

Don't worry about us, just worry about what you're going to do when Daddy Bear comes to hug you for his payment, oil for arm, perhaps.

I wonder those obsoleted shaddocks still work.

(My last off topic post)

One lone Singaporean vs the Vietnamese posters haha, thought I'll join in the fun

 

[Anonymous user]

I am sure Vietnam is neither number #1 nor #2 of your fears.
That´s fine if Singapore gets protected by China, but I doubt China would do. Hard to imagine China would come to rescue if Singapore being attacked by (no offence) Malaysia or Indonesia.

Vietnam would do!

I agree with ahfatzia, Vietnam is in no shape to lead ASEAN, as an important member and collaborator yes. As the leader no.

The strongest ASEAN member would be Indonesia, their sheer population alone makes up for their strength not to mention their abundant natural resources. They are a true enemy to fear because they are in the best shape to actually project power plus they have the funds to match.

Ultimately the core of ASEAN will be mainly Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia mainly due to geography and various strengths between the countries that range from natural resources, financial ability, global connectivity etc.

Singapore being attacked by Malaysia or Indonesia is possible but its rather slim, Malaysia and Indonesia are always at loggerheads so chances of a joint attack is unlikely, Singapore playing the devils advocate on both side acts as an equalizer. Also given how corrupt these two countries are Singapore acts as a conduit to move funds for those in power.

Also if Indonesia attacked Singapore, Malaysia will not stand idly by as its too near their shoreline for their liking. If Malaysia attacked us it will be worse but unlikely since we have good bilateral relations (not to mention economic ties, US base etc etc)

Of course if someone mentioned Vietnam attacking us I would laugh my head off if they didn't think Malaysia or Indonesia would just accept that and do nothing and let s hostile force so far away control something near their shoreline. I trust you are not so foolish as to think that as compared to some other people on this forum.

Ultimately our threats are also our protectors, Indonesia provides us gas for power while Malaysia supplies food and water, if someone did take control and both countries cut off the supply it would be meaningless glory

 

[Obambam]

It's hard enough imagining the likes of Greece, Portugal or Spain taking a leading role in protecting members of NATO let alone Vietnam for ASEAN.

I agree with our dear SG members, Vietnam is in no shape to do so. It's lacking not only economics wise, but military and politics wise. Moreover, they are a communists regime and shares similar Sino-Viet disputes with its ASEAN neighbours. No sane minds would allow a country like that to lead ASEAN.

It is nice to have ideas, but end of the day practicality speaks loudest, especially to those with good foresight, judgments and business sense. ASEAN is merely an economical grouping far from what some members here make it out to be.

 

[djsjs]

Or do you mean if China sees us as enemy as blessing for us?

see you as enemy???
I regret to tell you that you are not qualified!
We are not American soldiers mired in Vietnam for 10 years.If we want to perish you，1 month is enough.
So please do not portray yourself as our enemy,nothing good for both of us!

 

[Viet]

see you as enemy???
I regret to tell you that you are not qualified!
We are not American soldiers mired in Vietnam for 10 years.If we want to perish you，1 month is enough.
So please do not portray yourself as our enemy,nothing good for both of us!

Check my post #93!
The People Daily says that.

 

[gpit]

Count me in as one of delusional ones:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/180755-geopolitics-asean-region-10.html

Bangladesh and Sri Lanka both might join ASEAN defense bloc, if it can protect us from big bad India.

ASEAN or ASEAN+ defense bloc does not have to be anti-India or anti-China, but pro ASEAN or ASEAN+. A bloc like this will be good for China and India in the long term as it will reduce the need for an offshore balancer like the US in the region.

ASEAN+ includes Japan and Korea, more details in the link above.

From this, ASEAN as military block is more delusive than ever: you want it to go against India, Viet wants it to go against China. Perhaps Singapore wants it to go against Malaysia... So be it settled among yourselves first.

Back to the topic.

From OP, we can see how much the poster lacks not only history root of ASEAN, but also detaches himself completely from ground reality now. Rather he only bases his judgment/rationalization on his person prejudice.

ASEAN was built for against perceived Vietnamese communist expansion under Soviet intention. Thus Vietnam, China, and Soviet were the enemies.

Though now time is different now, the historical meaning still exist: Vietnam is still a communist country, so in some sense China as perceived by West.

Myopically believe that Vietnam has sea rock dispute with China, to lesser extent the Philippines have as well, meaning that Vietnam can hijack the organization to its own tool is a DELUSION: Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, Singapore, Burma, Malaysia and Indonesia are definitely not on Vietnam's anti-China side.

In fact, if you read the knowledge, any meaningful organization has to be backed up by a power: Warsaw Pack by Soviet, NATO by USA, UN by 5 powers, and earlier or later organizations such as League of Nations, or SCO, none has an exception.

If Vietnam wants to lead something like that? Two words answer: NO WAY!

Vietnam doesn't have unique ideology to provide: it copies politics from Soviet, economy from China, culturally non-distinct.

Vietnam doesn't have monetary means to support: it's poor like a church mouse, reflecting a total failure of its system.

Vietnam doesn't have the military power to backup the organization: just look at its sh!ty navy and uneducated soldiers with rotten arms.
...


Politics, money, military, Vietnam has nothing, zero!

Dude, if you want the people of other more successful AEAN nations to follow your Vietnam into such an abyss, it's a sheer delusion.

Vietnam might go well with the Philippines, .. but can you settle the rock dispute in SCS among yourselves first?

 

[gpit]

...

Milton Friedman's uregulated free market extremism has got to go and make way for "Strategic Trade".

LOL!

Do you have economics 101 done yet?


Profit, profit, and more profit!

Profit is the only strategy, and the strategy in trade is for profit!

The Chinese strategy in trading is nothing but for profit.

Get it real, buddy.