ASEAN as Defence Bloc?

[NiceGuy]

F
If Vietnam wants to lead something like that? Two words answer: NO WAY!

We only need Thailand-Singapore to join with VN-Laos-Camb's defense bloc now, that's enough to control Malacca strait. It's perfect to have VN's second sub-marine base in Singapore

If Chinese-Thail King refuse to join, then Cambodia artillery will burn to ash and the next is Singapore .

Vietnam doesn't have unique ideology to provide: it copies politics from Soviet, economy from China, culturally non-distinct.

That's always good to learn from other nations

Vietnam doesn't have monetary means to support: it's poor like a church mouse, reflecting a total failure of its system.

We got Russia-Japan support, that's why we can even build our own sub-marine base with 6 Kilos

Vietnam doesn't have the military power to backup the organization: just look at its sh!ty navy and uneducated soldiers with rotten arms.

Do you feel shamed when saying like that ?? Do you know we're sucking oil insde disputed zone with China ?? even Japan also dare not do like this . If we have sh!ty navy then, coward PLAN is even worse than dog sh*t bcz PLAN dare not fight with us insde disputed zone now .

Wanna test our Yakhont-Shaddock ?? well come to the hell

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Correct.

Singapore's relationship with China is deep than it meet the eyes and of course, which I forgot to mention before, Singapore has to act the part of Israel in order to main a strong alliance with China. Being a small player and an economic oriented nation I don't think China minds for Singapore to keep the existing good relationship with the US. But if the two big boys are at each others throats then Singapore must chooses China or act as middleman between them.

Not to disrespect Vietnam, I think your country still have a way to go before she can assume the leadership role among the ASEAN nation in terms of defense alliance and if such alliance is to be made today, Indonesia obviously will dominated. A strong army, in this sense, need a strong economy to back it up and Indonesia is clearly has the upper hand economically and politically.

As some posters mentioned before a military alliance without a common perceived enemy is hard to hold water. A region alliance between a few players within ASEAN would also viewed suspiciously.

It's hard enough imagining the likes of Greece, Portugal or Spain taking a leading role in protecting members of NATO let alone Vietnam for ASEAN.

I agree with our dear SG members, Vietnam is in no shape to do so. It's lacking not only economics wise, but military and politics wise. Moreover, they are a communists regime and shares similar Sino-Viet disputes with its ASEAN neighbours. No sane minds would allow a country like that to lead ASEAN.

It is nice to have ideas, but end of the day practicality speaks loudest, especially to those with good foresight, judgments and business sense. ASEAN is merely an economical grouping far from what some members here make it out to be.

Why do you guys let waste time to argue about "Who is the leader of ASEAN", while ASEAN is active based on consensus and a rotating chair?
Remember that this year, Cambodia is holding the rotating chair of ASEAN.

 

[Icecreamcart]

Why do you guys let waste time to argue about "Who is the leader of ASEAN", while ASEAN is active based on consensus and a rotating chair?
Remember that this year, Cambodia is holding the rotating chair of ASEAN.

Isn't that the problem? An organization, especially one which evolves into a regional defense pact, based on consensus does not work if the members do not share the same interests in the most important areas regarding foreign policy.

At least in the EU or NATO, European foreign policy towards the rest of the world is generally similar. The most powerful countries in Europe share similar positions that can be achieved through compromise (excepting the Euro-skeptic U.K of course). The more powerful members of the ASEAN bloc do not share the same foreign policy position as the ones on China's periphery.

In the end, the idea of an ASEAN defense bloc as of the current geopolitical situation is only beneficial for the Philippines and Vietnam, who wish to present a stronger front against China to the detriment of diplomatic relations.

Maybe in a decade or two perceptions of China will change. This is questionable as China is still a status-quo power.

But until such a shift is in effect, there'll be no progress towards any ASEAN defense bloc.

 

[Filipino]

Didn't we already try with SEATO? And didn't it fail miserably?

 

[ahfatzia]

The only way a military alliance of ASEAN is possible today, by no mean I wish such scenario would happen, is the revival of a imperialistic Japan and/or US/West and it'll lead by China as the pivot. Countries like Korea and Taiwan also join the alliance but whether the name ASEAN is to be used or not is hard to say. If China is the aggressor, which I think is unlikely because of historical record and Chinese mentalities, such alliance is also possible but with much fewer members and has to lead by a powerful country like the US or India. The reason you need such a country to lead because the ASEAN nations don't have enough resources and cohesiveness.

 

[Viet]

Didn't we already try with SEATO? And didn't it fail miserably?

This time is different: the proposed defence bloc would include Vietnam, and only ASEAN states could join! Other non-members could be granted observer status.

 

[Viet]

The only way a military alliance of ASEAN is possible today, by no mean I wish such scenario would happen, is the revival of a imperialistic Japan and/or US/West and it'll lead by China as the pivot. Countries like Korea and Taiwan also join the alliance but whether the name ASEAN is to be used or not is hard to say. If China is the aggressor, which I think is unlikely because of historical record and Chinese mentalities, such alliance is also possible but with much fewer members and has to lead by a powerful country like the US or India. The reason you need such a country to lead because the ASEAN nations don't have enough resources and cohesiveness.

I hope you are right, and so a such alliance is not necessary.

 

[Obambam]

Why do you guys let waste time to argue about "Who is the leader of ASEAN", while ASEAN is active based on consensus and a rotating chair?
Remember that this year, Cambodia is holding the rotating chair of ASEAN.

Precisely the problem. ASEAN, being an economical centric grouping, would not unite and side with Vietnam against the world's number one and two economies. Instead they would want to balance relationship with the two for stability and the prosperity of the region. Turning ASEAN into a defence blog is as good as nil. Moreover neither America or China are considered a large threat by majority of ASEAN. Only Vietnam and the Philippines see it that way, the others probably see Vietnam being the larger threat. I hope you read up on how and why ASEAN was formed. If Vietnam becomes too eager, it will only arouse its neighbour's suspicion.

 

[Viet]

Precisely the problem. ASEAN, being an economical centric grouping, would not unite and side with Vietnam against the world's number one and two economies. Instead they would want to balance relationship with the two for stability and the prosperity of the region. Turning ASEAN into a defence blog is as good as nil. Moreover neither America or China are considered a large threat by majority of ASEAN. Only Vietnam and the Philippines see it that way, the others probably see Vietnam being the larger threat. I hope you read up on how and why ASEAN was formed. If Vietnam becomes too eager, it will only arose its neighbour's suspicion.

The US itself has an interest in bringing the ASEAN states forming a front when dealing with China.

Asean to unite vs China – urges Clinton | The Kuala Lumpur Post | Independent Online News

Asean to unite vs China – urges Clinton
JAKARTA—US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton arrived in Indonesia on Monday hoping to encourage Southeast Asian nations to present a united front to the Chinese in dealing with territorial disputes in the West Philippine Sea (South China Sea).

 

[ahfatzia]

The problem with some ASEAN nations, emboldened and encouraged by the US, refuse to see China as a powerful country of yore and as proxies, keep challenging China every move with actions rather than use diplomatic means. As a small nation, situates right next to a much bigger and a stronger neighbor, the last thing she should do is to antagonize her big neighbor with the help of a more powerful distanced country, because at the end she is the one who'll get hurt. Diplomacy is a better means for such a country.

 

[Obambam]

The US itself has an interest in bringing the ASEAN states forming a front when dealing with China.

What you and Hillary are seeking means nothing to the rest of the ASEAN community. Both China and America already have their hands deep inside their pockets. With the group, consisting mostly of business minded countries, they will be sensible enough not to throw potential ASEAN profits into the 'OCEAN'.

China are the biggest if not one of the largest business partners of the ASEAN community and that speaks volumes. Hilary and a few Vietnamese forumers wishes will only fall on deaf ears.

 

[Viet]

The problem with some ASEAN nations, emboldened and encouraged by the US, refuse to see China as a powerful country of yore and as proxies, keep challenging China every move with actions rather than use diplomatic means. As a small nation, situates right next to a much bigger and a stronger neighbor, the last thing she should do is to antagonize her big neighbor with the help of a more powerful distanced country, because at the end she is the one who'll get hurt. Diplomacy is a better means for such a country.

Do you mean as a small nation we should accept China´s supremacy and give up our national interests? Never!

I fully agree to diplomacy, but I doubt China ever would treat us nicely and equally, considerning how many times they betrayed us and how many times they launched invasions into country. You can see here the many posts and reactions from Chinese members in the forum:

They seldom miss a chance to scold on us how poor and backback we are. They laugh and are happy to see us in the dirt, and in the poverty but all of them seem to forget that they were one of the reasons for.

 

[ahfatzia]

Do you mean as a small nation we should accept China´s supremacy and give up our national interests? Never!

I fully agree to diplomacy, but I doubt China ever would treat us nicely and equally, considerning how many times they betrayed us and how many times they launched invasions into country. You can see here the many posts and reactions from Chinese members in the forum:

They seldom miss a chance to scold on us how poor and backback we are. They laugh and are happy to see us in the dirt, and in the poverty but all of them seem to forget that they were one of the reasons for.

A small nation should be humble to a bigger nation and work with her diplomatically and seek gains from the relationship. That's the fact of geopolitics and no one knows better than my country in this neighborhood.

Albeit a few wars and one should so quick to judge who was right and who was wrong on each of its own perspective, China treated Vietnam relative fair as any big nation treat their smaller neighbor.

The antagonistic bantering in this forum is from both sides, disregarding who started first and it'll get worst before it gets better. This is the culture of internet forums where people can come out from their closets of hates without the fears of retaliations. But then it's not an indicative of what the real world, just like the world of geopolitics where restrains are more important than anything else, is.

LOL didn't you admonish Wiseguy, the incredible hawk, once or twice for taunting me? If I use oversea Chinese as a guide, I have to say we get along with Vietnamese better than any other group around because our cultures and sentiments are quite similar. but then brothers or even mothers and daughters fight frequently too.

 

[anon45]

A small nation should be humble to a bigger nation and work with her diplomatically and seek gains from the relationship. That's the fact of geopolitics and no one knows better than my country in this neighborhood.

Albeit a few wars and one should so quick to judge who was right and who was wrong on each of its own perspective, China treated Vietnam relative fair as any big nation treat their smaller neighbor.

The antagonistic bantering in this forum is from both sides, disregarding who started first and it'll get worst before it gets better. This is the culture of internet forums where people can come out from their closets of hates without the fears of retaliations. But then it's not an indicative of what the real world, just like the world of geopolitics where restrains are more important than anything else, is.

LOL didn't you admonish Wiseguy, the incredible hawk, once or twice for taunting me?

So you admit that China won't treat its neighbors fairly, but they should deal with it.

They are dealing with it, just not really in the way you wan't, including Singapore.




Now for this ASEAN NATO idea, even if everyone agreed it was a necessity (and that is far from the case unfortunately), the requisite power projection capability and power itself to make it an effective military bloc does not exist. You need one of the big 3 in there to truly deter. (of course this would actually mean either Russia or the US, as China is the one this bloc is formed to defend against.

 

[djsjs]

Do you mean as a small nation we should accept China´s supremacy and give up our national interests? Never!

I fully agree to diplomacy, but I doubt China ever would treat us nicely and equally, considerning how many times they betrayed us and how many times they launched invasions into country. You can see here the many posts and reactions from Chinese members in the forum:

They seldom miss a chance to scold on us how poor and backback we are. They laugh and are happy to see us in the dirt, and in the poverty but all of them seem to forget that they were one of the reasons for.

China has made a lot of efforts to promote the Chinese and Southeast Asian trade.We hope that our southern provinces have more economic cooperation with Southeast Asian countries,to achieve a healthy and rapid economic growth for both of us.Our companies make a lot of investments all over the world.If our neighbors have good policies to attract investment, we will not be far away.We even planned road and railway for Southeast Asia ,of which no other country would do.

About Sino-Vietnamese island dispute，we think that many of your actions are provocative.We propose putting aside disputes and jointly develop policies.But you often follow, or in conjunction with other countries to challenge China.This is very dangerous.We pursue a policy of keeping a low profile, so most of the time we just keep quiet.But you know, anyone's patience is limited，so is a country.If you repeatedly anger us，some bad thing we both do not want to see may happen one day.

I have likened Vietnam to a chess.I don't want to say more about this ,but hope you think carefully about it. A motto for you:飞鸟尽，良弓藏，狡兔死，走狗烹。The flyer comes to an end to the utmost , the good bow hides; After the cunning hare is killed , the hound is boiled

I personally, do not look down on Vietnamese，and I love Vietnam rice ,too.