Army to analyse Tribunal verdict on Kargil war officer

[WAQAS119]

You ask this question claiming to have done a PhD on the article. What does the name "Armed Forces Tribunal " suggest?? Does the term Armed Forces ring a bell?? Got you answer??

I wanted someone to come up with this!!!

So now what you think history gone straight or more distorted? Obviously Indian Army has changed it according to its own requirements!
Zero Credibility.

 

[WAQAS119]

I will keep this short as you fail to understand anything longer than 3 sentences.
1. Indian Armed Forces are a professional outfit with a system of checks and balances which actually works.
2. The dynamics of a power hungry armed forces do not apply here.
3. Thought of using it to make a wise-crack at you, and make others smile, but decided against it as things are already funny enough.

This post is showing your state of mind (embarrassed)
Come up with some arguments!!!

 

[harpoon]

Actually multiple Generals (along with various other high level officers) have been prosecuted by both civilian and military governments in Pakistan, so to argue that only India holds its generals to account is a foolish statement.

Forgive me for my ignorance. Did Pakistan prosecuted any serving general like what happened to Lt-Gen Avadhesh Prakash in India.

 

[WAQAS119]

Forgive me for my ignorance. Did Pakistan prosecuted any serving general like what happened to Lt-Gen Avadhesh Prakash in India.

Don't divert topic for now.. Open another thread and discuss it their.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Forgive me for my ignorance. Did Pakistan prosecuted any serving general like what happened to Lt-Gen Avadhesh Prakash in India.

Have to run, so I'll resort to wiki:

Major General Zahirul Islam Abbasi (Urdu: ﻇﻬﻴﺮ ﺍﻹﺳﻼﻡ ﻋﺑﺎﺳ&#65264( n 12 January 1943 - 30 July 2009) was a former commander and officer of the Pakistani Army and the Inter-Services Intelligence agency of the military of Pakistan. Serving in the Siachen region of the disputed territory of Kashmir, Abbasi planned and executed assaults on posts occupied by the Indian Army. Abbasi was accused and convicted for a period of 7 years for being party to a coup d'etat against the civilian government of Benazir Bhutto in 1995 while he was still a serving Major General in Pakistan Army. No political party was linked to this coup attempt as determined by the courts.

 

[Skeptic]

The people who seem to be overly concerned about Armed Force History tend to forget that the armed forces even altered the History text books leave alone Military History.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Some of you have been using the word 'terrorist' to describe the individuals the IA fought in Kargil. Please refrain from using that word from this point on, in the context of Kargil discussions, to describe the people fighting against the IA.

The individuals opposing the IA in Kargil, whether PA regulars or irregulars, were not fighting civilians or setting off bombs in cities and killing innocents - this was a conflict between combatants on both sides in extremely inhospitable and challenging terrain, and with no 'human shields or civilian population' to hide behind.

Both sides displayed exemplary acts of courage and conviction, and that should be respected.

 

[anathema]

How do we know the Brigadier's 'valor' isn't trumped up with the IA/GoI supporting it because it tremendously exaggerates the odds that were allegedly faced?

Given the previous incidents of falsification mentioned, falsification in this case cannot be ruled out.

How will we know that instead of 600 combatants (in your words) as proclaimed by IA, it was actually more than 1000 ? How will we know it was 500 ? How will we know if M Alam actually managed to down 5 aircrafts ( i believe) in a matter of minutes whereas Nosy 'Haider' it seems has debunked this in his book ? M Alam will always go down as a Ace in history books of pakistan till some tribunal does something about it or may be not - no disrespect.

Truth of the matter is we will never know. History has always been written by victor, we just have to take to the official account of IA. It is pointless to debate on this matter. The point over here is a IA Brigadier doing his duty has been given justice (better late). If you ask how can media or we judge brigadier's role, then well trust Army tribunal to do their Job. Army tribunal before sounding this verdict knew what they were getting into.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The point over here is a IA Brigadier doing his duty has been given justice (better late). If you ask how can media or we judge brigadier's role, then well trust Army tribunal to do their Job. Army tribunal before sounding this verdict knew what they were getting into.

I dunno if the Brigadier has been done justice, but from the sounds of it, and the fiasco over the Ghazi and Longewalla, there is reason to suspect this revision is motivated by a need to exaggerate.

And there are enough independent accounts of Alam's feat (disregarding the time it took) to look at it as factual - there are no third party accounts to support anything the IA puts in its 'official history' on the Kargil conflict.

Next thing you know some Indian General will be demanding 'justice' for having to fight off a horde of Yetis before being able to single handedly kill off thousands of PA soldiers with his trusty toothpick.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

One thing is surely proved that your Army Men are good story writers....

Not really. The only thing that is surely proved is that the Indian state does have some capacity for introspection, open debate and trying to absorb the lessons of the past.

Not to get into a d*ck measuring contest, but nations, armies and institutions that fail to do that will always blunder from error to catastrophe.

There are many internal critiques of the US Army performance in World War II. Does that negatively reflect on the US Army in any way?

 

[humblehobbes]

But one thing which worries is that the Indian instituitions, keep introspecting on the samething over and over again! which is not a good sign.

 

[Jazzbot]

W T F is this babbling about from indians, its your army men who made false stories about kargil war for promotions and fame and its your ppl who caught these rubbish acts, and finally its your Judges who said 15 Corps Commander falsified accounts of battles in the Batalik sector..

Go get some life folks, being big mouth won't hide your dirty faces..

 

[Bang Galore]

How do we know the Brigadier's 'valor' isn't trumped up with the IA/GoI supporting it because it tremendously exaggerates the odds that were allegedly faced?

Given the previous incidents of falsification mentioned, falsification in this case cannot be ruled out.

It was 11 years ago and there is nothing to be gained by falsification today. It actually shows up the army in somewhat of a poor light in terms of its internal controls. The army would not want to disgrace a Lt.General who was a Corps commander to "trump up" the valour of a retired brigadier. Some of the language used against the Lt.General by the Armed Forces Tribunal has been extremely harsh. It also shows the Army HQ in poor light for not being able to sort this out without the gentleman having to approach the tribunal for redressal.

Your second point on hyping up the odds seems to be a misunderstanding of the events involved. The army's initial assessment of a smaller number of Pakistani regulars/irregulars being involved was later changed as the army actually dealt with the opposition. This meant that the Brigadier was right the first time around and should have been credited for that, something that was not done. He also took his time initially in launching the counter attack because of his own assessment about the numbers his troops faced which received adverse mention in the report by the Lt.General whose own assessment put the figure at a lower number. Events went on to vindicate the Brigadier. The main point however was that the Brigadier was not being given credit for operations carried out under his command which were shown as being carried out under the deputy Corps commander at the Corps HQ. This was what was set right by the tribunal.

 

[Bang Galore]

W T F is this babbling about from indians, its your army men who made false stories about kargil war for promotions and fame and its your ppl who caught these rubbish acts, and finally its your Judges who said 15 Corps Commander falsified accounts of battles in the Batalik sector..

Go get some life folks, being big mouth won't hide your dirty faces..

Falsification only in as much as to who was commanding the units involved. It unfortunately is a case of someone trying to take credit when it was actually due to this Brigadier.

 

[moha199]

What we have in our SMALL military circle is that, India was acting way too much of her hight! after 1998 nuclear test and Pakistan had to send a strong signal to Indian army that you can't attack us nor even think of coming to our land after Pakistan going nuclear. Pakistani army designed a plan which would take some Pakistani lives but military to military it will send a very clear message that either full or limited war for india is off the table now. What i also believe is that IA has recived this message loud and clear. Following by reason, Indian drama of parlimant attack and ISI's involvement in it and putting 500k soilders on Pakistani border for a year, back in 2000 but still not dare to attack a single land of Pakistan! after that following of 26/11 after all the tough talk still nothing. ( Which i give credit to kargil plan) So my point is that Pakistani army wanted to send to signal to IA which was heard loud and clear. Any Indian who believe that PA didn't will happen after this adventure quest has really need to wake up. Pakistani army knew exactly how this kargil episode will unfold but still went for it so that IA get this straight. No more harassing Pakistan on serious note. So if you think you won this battle then check how in kargil war PAF was not involved and many other points are hidden but lol what Pakistani army wanted to score is been achived by Pakistan. Which is to IA... CHILL lol no offense to anyone. rest talk about thread! I don't believe a single word what your army say's coz recently your own COAS said that Pakistani army is cowerd which doesnt even dare to attack indian army unless its attacked first but then we always hear your COAS complaining that how Pakistani broke the cease fire so put yourself in our shoes. What to beieve or not.