Army to analyse Tribunal verdict on Kargil war officer

[Skeptic]

@Skeptic: Again you came up with some of the sh1ttest evidence!
Bharat Rakshak Forum
and some screen shots of home made documents..

I mean why you acting in this way? Like seriously! come up with some solid arguments and not with home made stuff..

BTW we are not discussing who won Loungewala Battle but discussing credibility of Indian Military records... in Loungewala indian air strikes caused our land forces to move back but your own Army record is very different.


According to Indian Army Folklore 100 odd soldiers and their steely resolve, which forced an entire Pakistani brigade, backed by an armoured regiment of 45 tanks, to retreat in the 1971 war.

some of your own war veterans have challenged this story after 37 years [proves credibility of IA]

Air marshal, MS Bawa, who was directly involved in the war, also agrees with Hansara. He says, “This is a challenge. There was no contact between the enemy and the army.”

Now yet another fabrication (Kargil) got busted>>> I mean your Military Record is full of fabrication and self made stories... Again I will say that you Indian Military Record has zero credibility....

Strawman all over.

Perfect way to identify a troll.

What is being discussed?? Official Indian History (as posted inpdf format - considered to be home made) or posts of some members and folktales??.

Official documents show that battle was won by IAF, to which Pakistan agrees. Where is the dispute?? Are you pissed off at movies like "border" and consider then to be official version?? If that is the case - no further discussions are possible.

Sort out your thoughts and the post. The count is not the most important factor.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agnostic:- Abbasi was not prosecuted for the Kargil affair, I guess you were referring to any instance of high ranking military officer being prosecuted. But Abbasi was set free days after Oct. 12, 1999 and today roams free on Tableeghi trips with Javed Nasir. Have you read about his earlier crime?

I was not referring to the Kargil affair, but his trial and conviction over the coup plot he was allegedly involved in. He was given a seven year sentence, he filed a motion in a civilian court against his sentence which was dismissed, and he was released after serving four years of the seven year sentence by Musharraf for 'good behavior'. Nothing out of the ordinary about that early release on those grounds, happens with all sorts of convicted criminals.

So I fail to see how this negates my point that very high ranking serving officers in the PA have been tried and convicted.

But back to topic, as I pointed out in my earlier post, there are at least three high profile instances of the IA/GoI including trumped up events as part of its history:

1. Kargil torture http://www.defence.pk/forums/280745-post199.html

2. Longewalla http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/10162-indian-army-faked-battle-laungewalla.html

3. Ghazi sinking http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/11962-fate-pns-ghazi.html

So on what basis can IA/GoI claims on war history have credibility? Perhaps both the individuals concerned are lying, perhaps one is, and the guy with the more 'heroic/inflated' claims is being accepted since it boosts/glamorizes Indian war stories.

 

[Skeptic]

I was not referring to the Kargil affair, but his trial and conviction over the coup plot he was allegedly involved in. He was given a seven year sentence, he filed a motion in a civilian court against his sentence which was dismissed, and he was released after serving four years of the seven year sentence by Musharraf for 'good behavior'. Nothing out of the ordinary about that early release on those grounds, happens with all sorts of convicted criminals.

So I fail to see how this negates my point that very high ranking serving officers in the PA have been tried and convicted.

But back to topic, as I pointed out in my earlier post, there are at least three high profile instances of the IA/GoI including trumped up events as part of its history:

1. Kargil torture http://www.defence.pk/forums/280745-post199.html

2. Longewalla http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/10162-indian-army-faked-battle-laungewalla.html

3. Ghazi sinking http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/11962-fate-pns-ghazi.html

So on what basis can IA/GoI claims on war history have credibility? Perhaps both the individuals concerned are lying, perhaps one is, and the guy with the more 'heroic/inflated' claims is being accepted since it boosts/glamorizes Indian war stories.

Before I continue, I would request a clarification:

Are we discussing perceptions, something similar to what you tried in "Common Indian Myths" thread or Are we discussing official Indian war history and Official statements from the government.

If it is the perception, then it is a loaded gun, you will always post as you see, and it can not be refuted (Coz its your perception of Indian Myths). But if is based on Facts: only conflict that stands would be on PNS Ghazi.

 

[Codename_IAFIAIN]

Guys! Many TV Channel (including GEO TV) were reporting this News thus I googled it out to share this news with you..
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Posted on May 27, 2010 by The Editors

Major embarrassment for the Indian Army:
In an unprecedented order that is likely to fuel demands for a full investigation into the actions of the military leadership in the 1999 Kargil war, the Armed Forces Tribunal has upheld claims that top commanders falsified accounts of battles in the Batalik sector. The Hindu

Exactly 11 years after the Kargil limited war and controversies in its wake took the nation by storm, the Armed Forces Tribunal has held that a key Lieutenant General overseeing operations in that sector fudged reports of the conflict and showed bias towards a senior field commander. Tribune India

The history of the Kargil war should be rewritten because some generals distorted the records, the Armed Forces Tribunal has ordered in an unparalleled judgment. Telegraph India
Judges say 15 Corps Commander falsified accounts of battles in the Batalik sector
Brigadier Devinder Singh, who led the Batalik-based 70 Infantry Brigade during the war, petitioned the Delhi High Court in 2006, complaining of misrepresentation of his battle performance
The Tribunal also directed the Directorate of Military Operations to rewrite portions of an official history, Op. Vijay: Account of the War in Kargil.
Brigadier Singh was hailed as a hero in the weeks after the war. But he soon fell from grace, in large part because of a battle performance review prepared by Lieutenant-General Pal
Later that year, Lieutenant-General Pal — who infamously promised to end the war in 48 hours — told the Chief of the Army Staff that just 45 Pakistani irregulars were positioned in Batalik
Brigadier Singh’s case is the first of a string of Kargil war-related complaints pending before the Armed Forces Tribunal. Notable among them are those of 121 Brigade Commander Surinder Singh, and Major Manish Bhatnagar, who say they were made scapegoats for the failures of top Generals.

Judges say 15 Corps Commander falsified accounts of battles in the Batalik sector

In an unprecedented order that is likely to fuel demands for a full investigation into the actions of the military leadership in the 1999 Kargil war, the Armed Forces Tribunal has upheld claims that top commanders falsified accounts of battles in the Batalik sector.

Brigadier Devinder Singh, who led the Batalik-based 70 Infantry Brigade during the war, petitioned the Delhi High Court in 2006, complaining of misrepresentation of his battle performance — misrepresentation which cost him a war medal and led to his being passed over for promotion as Major-General.

In a judgment made public on Wednesday, Justice A.K. Mathur and Lieutenant-General Naidu — who heard the case after it was transferred from the Delhi High Court to the newly-formed Tribunal — have called on the Army to expunge Lieutenant-General Kishan Pal’s assessment of Brigadier Singh. They also directed the Army to delete sections of an after-action report prepared by 15 Corps, which claimed that Brigadier Singh only had partial command of the 70 Brigade.

The Tribunal also directed the Directorate of Military Operations to rewrite portions of an official history, Op. Vijay: Account of the War in Kargil. Volume III of the history asserts that while “Commander 70 Infantry Brigade controlled operations on the Western Flank (Jubbar Complex), Deputy GOC 3 Infantry Division controlled the Stangba-Khalubar Ridge operations.”

Justice Mathur and Lieutenant-General Naidu said they “cannot trust the report prepared by Lieutenant-General Pal.”

Brigadier Singh was hailed as a hero in the weeks after the war. In an official citation issued after the war, he was lauded for having “meticulously planned the application of all the resources at his disposal.” Despite sustaining battle injuries, the citation recorded, he continued to fight “unmindful of and with total disregard for personal safety.”

But he soon fell from grace, in large part because of a battle performance review prepared by Lieutenant-General Pal. In an assessment of the 70 Brigade’s conduct during the war, Lieutenant-General Pal asserted that Brigadier Singh had little to do with the success in Batalik. “Success in operations,” he instead claimed, “particularly in the last 10-12 days, came about by superimposing Brigadier Ashok Duggal, Deputy-General Officer Commanding 3 Infantry Division.”

Later, an after-action report prepared by Lieutenant-General Pal’s headquarters claimed that Brigadier Duggal had control of four battalions that led the assault along the eastern flank of the Batalik sector — the Ladakh Scouts, the 1st Battalion of the 11 Gurkha Rifles, the 12 Jammu Kashmir Light Infantry and the 22 Grenadiers Regiment.

The Tribunal order suggests that personal malice underpinned this rewriting of events. In April 1999, Lieutenant-General Pal dismissed warnings emerging from a war game, which suggested that a Kargil-like intrusion could take place. Brigadier Singh played a key role in the war game; his appraisal was proved correct.

Later that year, Lieutenant-General Pal — who infamously promised to end the war in 48 hours — told the Chief of the Army Staff that just 45 Pakistani irregulars were positioned in Batalik, instead of the 600-odd regular soldiers Brigadier Singh said he was confronting. The Brigadier’s assessment was again proved correct by the questioning of captured prisoners of war.

In order to protect himself and some superiors from the consequences of these gross errors of judgment, Lieutenant-General Pal evidently fabricated records underplaying the role of his most successful subordinate.

Brigadier Singh filed a complaint with the Army in 2000, charging Lieutenant-General Pal with bias. Two years later, the Army rejected his complaint. In 2004, the Ministry of Defence struck down Lieutenant-General Pal’s assessment of Brigadier Singh’s battle performance. However, the Ministry refused to strike down key sections of Brigadier Singh’s annual confidential report, a document Lieutenant-General Pal was responsible for reviewing.

Full justice may, however, still lie years down the road. Brigadier Singh — who has retired from service — will now have to petition the Ministry of Defence to reappraise his case after the Tribunal’s orders are effected. The Ministry will then decide whether to grant him a promotion.

Brigadier Singh’s case is the first of a string of Kargil war-related complaints pending before the Armed Forces Tribunal. Notable among them are those of 121 Brigade Commander Surinder Singh, and Major Manish Bhatnagar, who say they were made scapegoats for the failures of top Generals. The Hindu

My dear, what ever has been under tribunal judgement is rectifiable in India, but what about the disgrace facing by your government, who denied to take back the bodies of there soldiers who died or sacrificed their life during kargil war for your pakistan. the only reason seems behind is not to make it public, the actual death ratio of Pakistan soldiers in kargil war, and not to compensate their family livings as a major counter strategy of relief.

So think curiously and sensibly....

 

[honour]

@All indians....no need to discuss all this kargil stuff with my worthy pakistani friends .Let us say our generals failed and some junior officers were made scapegoat...but even in Pakistan General <Mush.> failed and what a great victory....PRIME MINISTER was made scapegoat.....really good and awesome......
Not to mention a real loser is who even refuses to take its soilders body even when UN requests it and sends it proof....
also what an irony...A failed General rules pakistan for next years....great fantasy