America Is Winning The Arms Sales War With Russia And China For Indonesia

[striver44]

It's funny. Who point a gun on your head for the loan? It's so ridiculous you blame the bank when you can NOT pay back. The borrower is responsible for borrowing the money not the opposite.
With such ill mentality, no wonder it's a trap. Your own trap.

https://www.trtworld.com/africa/how-china-s-debt-trap-diplomacy-works-and-what-it-means-32133

https://issafrica.org/amp/iss-today/lessons-from-sri-lanka-on-chinas-debt-trap-diplomacy

I personally understand that there's no such thing as free meals, China must have something in its head when it decide to spent billions making construction projects in other countries

 

[Indos]

My bet, F-35 is just a bait. No way US can provide F-35 to none allied countries, not only Indonesia, but also many others.

F-35 is the US major fighter/attacker in next 20-30 years, how can US be comfortable to risk the leak of confidential technologies?

I don't want to offend anyone, especially I don't want to offend Indonesian friends here, I wish good relationship between both countries.

But I do see too many Indonesians have optimistic views on the relationship with the West, especially US. I understand that the political structure changes after Suharto, and many intellectuals are fed with US so called democracy doctrine.

I personally don't see a bright future of Indonesia, it's just a personal judgement only because I see Indonesia intellectual are too optimistic and fail to see what US so called democracy brought to Indonesia.

Please forgive me if anyone's feeling got hurt.

No one getting hurt seeing your post here bro. Every one can say their own opinion and I know you are a pessimistic about democracy future and a hard core believer of CCP system.

It is right that democracy is not perfect in term of its ability to produce efficient economy due to its populism tendency possibility and it is why Indonesian economy after democracy cannot grow more than 6.2 percentage. Policy under SBY administration that spend around 30 billion dollar every year for oil subsidy to get Indonesian votes is one of the example. But later Jokowi turn that policy and slashed oil subsidy and put it into massive infrastructure investment.

He still can win vote in the second term despite that non popular policy. It shows democracy can still produce efficient and effective economic policy in Indonesia and not fall on populism agenda. Our public do understand about long term and sustainable economic development if leader inform and educate them properly. Any way, Jokowi won his first and second term due to its economic strategy and campaign which is based on rational calculation rather then populism one just like during SBY administration.

Thats show our democracy is getting mature and this second term Jokowi administration also will try to change our labor law that have anti investment and entrepreneurship spirit like our severance pay that force businessmen to pay its worker with 32 months salary every time they want to fired they worker.

Trans Sumatra and trans Java toll road will also be completed before Jokowi ends its final term inshaAllah, with other infrastructure project and pro business labor law, I believe Indonesia economy can reach 7 percent or may even more after 2024 inshaAllah.

Indonesia start its fair and democratic election in 1955

And for your information, democracy is not something new for Indonesia either. Our founding fathers have believe with this system long before 1998 reformation period. Our first fair democratic election was conducted in 1955 but our system at that time was parliamentary that make government become weak. Soekarno and Soeharto bring Presidential system to the Republic but dont apply democracy.

Our current democratic system is also a mix between so many democracy system around the world. We dont copy US and Western democracy system bluntly but rather use any good content from them and mixed it. During 1999 until 2008 there are many transformation happening in our democracy system.

My bet, F-35 is just a bait. No way US can provide F-35 to none allied countries, not only Indonesia, but also many others.

F-35 is the US major fighter/attacker in next 20-30 years, how can US be comfortable to risk the leak of confidential technologies?

This opinion has already been debunked by me in my previous post that you replied now. I will repeat again for you. Indonesia is participated in KFX/IFX program that include Lockheed Martin as well. Many critical technologies of F 35/ F22 are used in KFX program. Any way USA has already offered Indonesia with F 16 Block 70 that uses many critical F 35 technologies including its AESA radars. So this reason is nonsense IMO.

"In addition, the United States has granted approvals to support Lockheed Martin's transfer to South Korea of 21 technology suites to support the KFX. These suites include flight control technologies, avionics, system integration, materials, and unspecified weaponry."

https://www.janes.com/article/92019...rogresses-f-35-offset-projects-in-south-korea

 

[striver44]

For me personally this is the time that Washington and it's allies in Canberra capture the trust of the Indonesian Government and pull it out of China's orbit. by giving us the access to one of their high end weapon systems.

 

[KAL-EL]

For me personally this is the time that Washington and it's allies in Canberra capture the trust of the Indonesian Government and pull it out of China's orbit. by giving us the access to one of their high end weapon systems.

For whatever it’s worth, I have no power in American political circles, But if it was up to me, you would get access to those high-end weapon systems.

 

[antonius123]

the Americans will always be preferable than China. Im not saying what US did is right, but I think Jakarta must get closer with Washington, especially after Beijing and Jakarta now happens to have some sort of territorial dispute.

There should be no preference. Indonesia should take advantage of relationship with both superpower cleverly. By doing that Indonesia will win. This is in line with Indonesian principle of free and active in international relationship.

 

[striver44]

There should be no preference. Indonesia should take advantage of relationship with both superpower cleverly. By doing that Indonesia will win. This is in line with Indonesian principle of free and active in international relationship.

i understand that, but we are now in dispute with China over the North Natuna Sea, it would be extremely naive to be neutral especially when China is clearly getting more assertive.

for me the priority is containing china, China has enough headache in facing the US Pacific fleet alone, not to mention other US treaty Allies such as Japan,Australia,Taiwan which is no walkover in military capability. not only that,Vietnam already joined the fray

Adding Indonesia to equation will add to the headache.

 

[vi-va]

No one getting hurt seeing your post here bro. Every one can say their own opinion and I know you are a pessimistic about democracy future and a hard core believer of CCP system.

It is right that democracy is not perfect in term of its ability to produce efficient economy due to its populism tendency possibility and it is why Indonesian economy after democracy cannot grow more than 6.2 percentage. Policy under SBY administration that spend around 30 billion dollar every year for oil subsidy to get Indonesian votes is one of the example. But later Jokowi turn that policy and slashed oil subsidy and put it into massive infrastructure investment.

He still can win vote in the second term despite that non popular policy. It shows democracy can still produce efficient and effective economic policy in Indonesia and not fall on populism agenda. Our public do understand about long term and sustainable economic development if leader inform and educate them properly. Any way, Jokowi won his first and second term due to its economic strategy and campaign which is based on rational calculation rather then populism one just like during SBY administration.

Thats show our democracy is getting mature and this second term Jokowi administration also will try to change our labor law that have anti investment and entrepreneurship spirit like our severance pay that force businessmen to pay its worker with 32 months salary every time they want to fired they worker.

Trans Sumatra and trans Java toll road will also be completed before Jokowi ends its final term inshaAllah, with other infrastructure project and pro business labor law, I believe Indonesia economy can reach 7 percent or may even more after 2024 inshaAllah.

Indonesia start its fair and democratic election in 1955

And for your information, democracy is not something new for Indonesia either. Our founding fathers have believe with this system long before 1998 reformation period. Our first fair democratic election was conducted in 1955 but our system at that time was parliamentary that make government become weak. Soekarno and Soeharto bring Presidential system to the Republic but dont apply democracy.

Our current democratic system is also a mix between so many democracy system around the world. We dont copy US and Western democracy system bluntly but rather use any good content from them and mixed it. During 1999 until 2008 there are many transformation happening in our democracy system.



This opinion has already been debunked by me in my previous post that you replied now. I will repeat again for you. Indonesia is participated in KFX/IFX program that include Lockheed Martin as well. Many critical technologies of F 35/ F22 are used in KFX program. Any way USA has already offered Indonesia with F 16 Block 70 that uses many critical F 35 technologies including its AESA radars. So this reason is nonsense IMO.

"In addition, the United States has granted approvals to support Lockheed Martin's transfer to South Korea of 21 technology suites to support the KFX. These suites include flight control technologies, avionics, system integration, materials, and unspecified weaponry."

https://www.janes.com/article/92019...rogresses-f-35-offset-projects-in-south-korea

No free meal. Japan is much more advanced on manufacture, still can NOT make their own jet after decades of so called cooperation. There is no such so called cooperation in reality regarding high tech. It's a bait, and bait only.

South Korea has little experience on high tech weaponry. Their tank, 155 howitzer are assembled with west components and some domestic chassis. Engine from Germany, gun barrel from Germany as well.

I don't want to slander South Korea, but I have to be objective. South Korea electronic industry is very advanced, such as LCD panel, semiconductor manufacturing, shipbuilding industry.

Advanced weaponry especially 5th generation jet required decades of R&D and tens of billions of investment. What's the last jet South Korea made? a training jet T-50. It far from J-10 or Su-35, I am talking about experience and technology accumulation.

There are 4 countries can made their jet alone, which are China, US, Russia, and France. The big 4 has their own aviation industry, including Radar, metallurgy, electronics, engine. South Korea far from that, at least in next 10 years or 20 years.

Your cooperation with South Korea won't blossom and yield fruit, that's my personal judgement.

High tech cooperation seldom has good result, check India out. Never see good progress. Just waste time and billions.

 

[Viet]

it is true about the possibility of Indonesia to acquire F 35, price wise they are in the range table of F15 and Su 35. So why not to move up the ladder by acquire them, and there is plan to acquire AEW planes and other ground support system for F35 ecosystem.

The US seeks buyer for 100 F35 that were allocated for Turkey.
I suggest Vietnam buys 50, Indonesia 50.
Now the price per jet is low. Thanks to recession the price will sink lower.
Win win.

 

[KAL-EL]

The US seeks buyer for 100 F35 that were allocated for Turkey.
I suggest Vietnam buys 50, Indonesia 50.
Now the price per jet is low. Thanks to recession the price will sink lower.
Win win.

You have a deal!!

 

[Viet]

You have a deal!!

Not a big deal in my opinion to jump from Su30 to F35.
Vietnam military knows very well about US weapon systems. Still operating lots of tanks from the former Republican army.

 

[vi-va]

The US seeks buyer for 100 F35 that were allocated for Turkey.
I suggest Vietnam buys 50, Indonesia 50.
Now the price per jet is low. Thanks to recession the price will sink lower.
Win win.

Such delusional thinking make me laugh hard. F-35 for Vietnam? Good joke.

 

[Viet]

Such delusional thinking make me laugh hard. F-35 for Vietnam? Good joke.

Why not?
Vietnam airforce needs modern fighter jets.
US wants to increase exports.
You sell ballistic missiles to Myanmar.
I don’t see where your problem is.

 

[IblinI]

Why not?
Vietnam airforce needs modern fighter jets.
US wants to increase exports.
You sell ballistic missiles to Myanmar.
I don’t see where your problem is.

We don't have to do it, your army would have killed you for switching side and signed the deal out of your pure goodwill.

 

[vi-va]

Why not?
Vietnam airforce needs modern fighter jets.
US wants to increase exports.
You sell ballistic missiles to Myanmar.
I don’t see where your problem is.

You are not baby, don't act and think like those has no clue how geopolitics works. You are once USA enemy, it won't suddenly be ally.

Please forgive me, because in their eyes, all those countries can be used like condom. Amerians want to encourage Vietnam as cannon fodder, use and dump.

 

[IblinI]

You are not baby, don't act and think like those has no clue how geopolitics works. You are once USA enemy, it won't suddenly be ally.

Please forgive me, because in their eyes, all those countries can be used like condom. Amerians want to encourage Vietnam as cannon fodder, use and dump.

politics aside, the new platform will drive their airforce nuts.