Acts of Terrorism in pakistan I

[niaz]

This a tangent but let me ask, how many members have visited Afghanistan before the Soviet invasion. In 60's there was no "Bara" outside every city and if one wanted to buy imported cloth or goods one had to go to Landi Kotal or Kabul. They used to deliver goods purchased in Kabul to your hotel in Peshawar. I had a class mate from Gujanwalla who loved Indian movies and used to take the Fokker flight to Kabul from Peshawer and spend a week end in Kabul each month without fail and watch all new the movies showing there. I admit accompanying him a couple of times.

Very few Afghan women could be seen. However, it was liberal in the sense that drinks were freely available and all decent hotels ( there only two in Kabul, one was called Spinzer) had a bar.

It is incorrect to paint Afghanistan as a liberal country. In 1933 Afghan King Amanullah Khan lost his throne because his wife was photgraphed without Burqa in Europe. Yes, there were women in skirts ( not mini skirts) working in various place and in posh shops, but the percentage was at a guess less than 10%.

Shuttlecock Burqa, is esentiallay tribal Pushtoon custom which was imposed by Talibans on all Afghans. Before that it was common but not essential. Afghanistan was never a liberal country. Metroppolitan Pakistan cities such as Lahore and Karachi were a lot more liberal; nor was it so strict as during the Taliban rule when women were beaten up with sticks if any part of their body such as hands or feet could be seen.

 

[Chrome9]

Dude, look around you. Pakistan isn't cozying up to the Americans anymore. China is the trusted ally, America is just a weak ally. It's better to have the US as an ally than as an enemy. Give the military a bit of credit for not being completely stupid

Really how much credibility can we give to the military now? If America is "weak ally" then it should never have the ability to tresspass and fire upon Pakistani citizens. They should not have the power to dictate terms to a leader of 160 million people. Compare that to the strong ally China which has only to this day asked the protection of it's citezens otherwise it has nevr interfered in internal situation of the country like the "weak ally". Even if Pakistan understands America is a weak ally they are not treating America as such.
Unfortunatly as days go by the militaries credibilty is being lost due to the biased media, Some bad decisions (CJ), strengthening of oppostion parties and most importantly the change of mindset of the comman man. It seems even if the military does something right, they will not be accepted which is a worrying state of affair meaning the leadership of the country is not appreciated.

 

[Always Neutral]

Brother without elections there can not be a sharia state, representative government is the most important thing.
To me sharia is a way for everybody to get a house,education,health and a job.
An example i gave before was that the state should make sure every place close's for prayer time but it is up to the people if they want to go and pray or not.
The people to draw the framework for sharia should be scholars,prof,politicians,scientist ect

Dear Dabong1,

Very nice. I would be happy to see the above as it would be a very balanced society. The rest was posted by AM so I was keen to see your explanation to his points of Talibans short commings. As always there are two sides to the coin.

Regards.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

First of all bro where did i say do not punish people that have broken the law...?
I am not saying "Musharraf should do absolutely nothing to combat crime and lawlessness, because he took power in a coup" the way in which he is doing things i do not agree with.

That is not what you have been saying all along. Following are the posts we exchanged:

Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM View Post
Why are you having trouble making the distinction? If they had at least limited their actions to attacking the "occupation" of Afghanistan by NATO, I could understand your argument and your sympathy for them, but these people are deliberately killing innocent people! Their actions will destabilize the state and, if allowed to continue for a prolonged period of time, completely evaporate any economic gains we have made.

Dabong
If the president was elected then i would totally agree with you,but it is not and coming from the lal masjid angle on things they where trying to overthrow a dictator....its easy making excuse's to fit your own agenda.

I was arguing in favor of action against the terrorists in Waziristan, and you seem to be saying that you would support action against the terrorists "If the president was elected". What does that mean then? That you do not support any action against the terrorists because, in your opinion, the President is not elected? So then how can you say that you did not argue in favor of inaction against criminal elements, when you clearly did just that in your post above.

And what about your post that "he has no authority to ask others to follow the law if he has not himself....". Are you not suggesting that because, in your opinion, Musharraf was not elected, that he should not "punish people who have broken the law"?

Bro it is you that is trying to get mushy's off the hook.

I have only defended the actions he has taken against the extremists in LM, and argued in favor of stronger military action in the tribal areas, if the terrorists do not back down. I would have argued in favor of such actions regardless of which government was in charge. I will argue in favor of privatization, even the PSM. I would argue in favor of complete regulation and auditing of the madrassahs; I would argue in favor of repealing the "blasphemy laws", "hudood laws" etc. Currently Musharraf has at least advocated taking action on those issues which is why I support him. If another party comes into power and does the same, I'll support that party. I am supporting the actions he is taking, and arguing in favor of those actions, NOT in favor of Musharraf.

What is absurd bro is your total conviction in a dictator to sort things out in pakistan,it has never worked in the past and will not work in the future.
What about karachi,who has got arrested there?The MQM killed more people then the Lal masjid mob how come it is no big deal.
No sorry when a mullah kills he is against the state but when a secular facist kills someone its ok.
There is a simple saying in life that mushy should use...practice what you preach.

As I explained above, I am not arguing in favor of Musharraf, but the actions the Govt. is taking. I was criticizing Musharraf the entire six months he let the LM bradran get away with committing crimes and terrorizing people. As far as the MQM is concerned, if there was concrete proof that they killed those people, then by all means go after them. So far I have not heard MQM leaders bragging about the crimes they committed, like the LM bradran did for six months (captured in various interviews), and like the Tribal Taliban have done by issuing statements claiming responsibility for the suicide bombings. The Karachi incident was never an open and shut case, as far as identifying the guilty party was concerned, like these cases are.

Regardless, it is a flawed argument to suggest that just because the government did not "solve" one crime, that they should not do so in a another case. One out of two crimes solved, criminals punished, is better than none out of two.

Yeah of course there is no connection between lal masjid and the recent bombings,like theres no connection betwee the iraq war and the london bombings
Go find out the conditions the tribals set to the pak govt before joining pakistan.

Well at least you are admitting that the LM bradran were similar to Saddam in that they were criminals, murderers and terrorists. As far as the conditions are concerned, did the "conditions" allow them to become a haven for drugs, illegal arms, terrorists and criminals?

Only after the UN was willing to give millions to restore the statues but nothing towards the taliban run orphanges.
I did not agree with the destruction but the taliban where "played" by the american and fell into the trap.
Yvonne Ridley the Sunday Express reporter was captured during the afghan war,she herself says that she was set up by british/US intelligence services to look like a spy.Once she had been killed this would have been another reason to attack these "barbarian" "savages that live in caves"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4929046509315492036
Please do watch it,the reporter converted to islam after meeting the taliban.

Yeah, what "mature", "intelligent" leadership the Taliban had. They were not getting the money they were begging for, so they decided to blow up the statues of some other faith. Yeah thats very "Islamic" and "tolerant". As far as being "played" by the Americans and "falling into a trap", how did the Americans "trick" them into blowing up the statues? Did they "trick" them into thinking that the Northern Alliance leadership was hiding inside the statues?

Wrong bro,he said there would be no mixed education he never said woman can not get educated.

I clarified my statement in my response to Roadrunner.

https://defence.pk/forums/showpost.php?p=87435&postcount=131

So nobody has beard's now in afghanistan or wears the burqa?
How many people where forced..the whole population or a small minority.
Mullah omar said when it comes to the burqa and beard they where enforcing there culture and not for religious reasons.

I believe RR has responded to your "culture" comment better than I could. However my concern was not so much about what "justification" he was using, but the act itself. The act was to force people to adopt something that they did not want, and whose voluntary adoption (or lack of) would bring about no material, or physical, advantages or disadvantages for the Afghanis. Culture is not a valid excuse for actions that are repressive or inhumane. The "culture" amongst the Arabs was also to engage in female infanticide. Culture is not a good enough argument to support someones actions. All it means is that because some people have been doing something for so long, that "something" is correct. Completely flawed logic.

Who would hand you over to the americans if you where wanted,mushy or mullah omar

Since I wont be committing terrorist or criminal acts, the "Americans" wont want me. But I would prefer to live in Musharraf's Pakistan any day, over Mullah Omars Afghanistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Abdullah Mehsud killed in Zhob security forces operation
Updated at 1115 PST
ISLAMABAD: Wanted militant leader Abdullah Mehsud was killed in an operation in Balochistan and three others including his two brothers have been arrested, Federal Minister of Interior Aftab Ahmed Sherpao here said.

Talking to Geo News in Islamabad Sherpao confirmed Mehsud's death in an operation of security forces in Zhob.

Federal Interior Ministry officials have said that Abdullah Mehsud, blew himself up to avoid arrest and some other militants were also killed in the operation.

Two brothers of Mehsud Abdul Rahman and Muhammad Azam and a relative and local Taliban leader were arrested in the raid, officials said.

The arrested men have been shifted to an unknown place for investigations, interior ministry officials added.

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp?id=26427

About time the rabid dogs start getting put down.

 

[Adux]

I saw a picture of him with his body gaurds, he was wearing a pants which doesnt reach his ankles, and was wearing a black sports shoe one leg and a yellow sandal on the other, holding a AK-47..lol, Guess what he was released from Gitmo in 2005, and he straight started got into his ways.

 

[Ababeel]

Military is the protector of secularism in that country. Military has sucessfully intervened previously and managed to put country back in the right track, sucessfully. Unlike the south asian counterparts.

This is a fast changing world. Nothing is going to remain same. First try to protect your on Secularism from the onslaught of the Fascist forces then try to think about the "South Asian Counterparts".

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I saw a picture of him with his body gaurds, he was wearing a pants which doesnt reach his ankles, and was wearing a black sports shoe one leg and a yellow sandal on the other, holding a AK-47..lol, Guess what he was released from Gitmo in 2005, and he straight started got into his ways.

He was released from Gitmo in 2005? Are you sure? If so, I am beginning to understand Bush's position a little bit more. If I remember correctly, the guy who tried to assassinate Musharaf was also released from Gitmo.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

On a side note, I am getting really disgusted with people on the Pakistani media wailing about the tragedy of "Muslims killing Muslims". So does that mean that it is alright to kill non Muslims? How is that "Islamic". If you want to cry out against violence, then condemn ALL violence. Don't create exceptions and corollaries for your Tribe, biradri, religion or whatnot. We are all humans who have to live on this Planet together, and who will NEVER share the same faith, despite the rapturous statements of some of the representatives of some belief systems.

 

[Adux]

** FILE** Abdullah Mehsud, a former Guantanamo Bay prisoner, talks to the media as his bodyguard stand guard near Chagmalai in South Waziristan along the Afghan border in this Oct 14, 2004 file photo. Mehsud, who led pro-Taliban militants in Pakistan after his release, died on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 when he blew himself up with a grenade to avoid arrest. Armed intelligence agents cornered Mehsud and three other men at the house of a leader of an Islamist political party in the southwestern town of Zhob, police officials said


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2653353&postcount=23


Check out his picture... he looks so effin gay.....

 

[Adux]

On a side note, I am getting really disgusted with people on the Pakistani media wailing about the tragedy of "Muslims killing Muslims". So does that mean that it is alright to kill non Muslims? How is that "Islamic". If you want to cry out against violence, then condemn ALL violence. Don't create exceptions and corollaries for your Tribe, biradri, religion or whatnot. We are all humans who have to live on this Planet together, and who will NEVER share the same faith, despite the rapturous statements of some of the representatives of some belief systems.

Extremely good post

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ahh... decided I didnt want to poke fun at someones weight....

 

[roadrunner]

This a tangent but let me ask, how many members have visited Afghanistan before the Soviet invasion. In 60's there was no "Bara" outside every city and if one wanted to buy imported cloth or goods one had to go to Landi Kotal or Kabul. They used to deliver goods purchased in Kabul to your hotel in Peshawar. I had a class mate from Gujanwalla who loved Indian movies and used to take the Fokker flight to Kabul from Peshawer and spend a week end in Kabul each month without fail and watch all new the movies showing there. I admit accompanying him a couple of times.

Very few Afghan women could be seen. However, it was liberal in the sense that drinks were freely available and all decent hotels ( there only two in Kabul, one was called Spinzer) had a bar.

It is incorrect to paint Afghanistan as a liberal country. In 1933 Afghan King Amanullah Khan lost his throne because his wife was photgraphed without Burqa in Europe. Yes, there were women in skirts ( not mini skirts) working in various place and in posh shops, but the percentage was at a guess less than 10%.

Shuttlecock Burqa, is esentiallay tribal Pushtoon custom which was imposed by Talibans on all Afghans. Before that it was common but not essential. Afghanistan was never a liberal country. Metroppolitan Pakistan cities such as Lahore and Karachi were a lot more liberal; nor was it so strict as during the Taliban rule when women were beaten up with sticks if any part of their body such as hands or feet could be seen.

Yes, this sounds about right. Afghanistan was never liberal by most people's definition, but it was much more liberal than during Taliban/Mujahideen/Northern Alliance (1989-1996) times. There was one Queen (Homaira?) who was photographed in all sorts of dress quite a bit. I'd disagree with the bit about Amanullah's wife as being his downfall also for not being veiled. The problem was the British flaunted pictures of Tarzi having her hand kissed etc around, which for that time anywhere was probably outrageous. It wasn't so much that she wasn't veiled that outraged some people. I don't think she used to wear a Burkha in Afghanistan either.

 

[dabong1]

Well, in fact what I asked you was kind of a trick..But any Pashtun (read here Pakistani Pashtun or Afghan Pashtun) would have known what I said. It's cultural Pashto, you have to go there, use it to know what it means. You clearly haven't been there or spent any considerable time there, probably the first, since I havent been there too much either, yet, these are key phrases which you cannot do without..

If an afgahni can not understand your phrase what chance have i got?
I never said i lived in afghanistan but that i have a lot of afghani friends.

Ahhhh, when you were a kid, I guess that's how you come to be such a genius about Pashtun affairs now..you went there when you were a kid. I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that things could change since when you were a kid, that you have your own secluded family house that you're not allowed out of when you're a kid and so on? I guess you were taking notes and surveying the area when you were 7 in order to ascertain the dress code of the average Pashtun woman on the streets all around Jalalabad ..

Actually to tell you the truth the only thing i recall is a camel carrying blocks of salt.
I think i was 5 not 7.
I never said i was an expert on afghasnistan.

I've met many people on the internet that have claimed to work and live with Afghans, Tajiks and so on. Even they've claimed to school them, find them homes, nurture them and finally even breast feed them. Just because you claim this and that you have been to place x or wherever still makes what you say to be weaker than the thousands of articles that were written about life in 50s Afghanistan. ..

To you it may be a big deal knowing afghans but to me its just normal, i have chinese,african friends and i mean real friends not the ones you chat to on the net but ones you work and eat with.
If you want me to prove it send me your phone number via mail and i will get them to have a chat with you or any of your afghan mates.

the typical extremist response is to go from one extreme to the other. Saying would you mind your sister in miniskirts is one extreme, just as me saying would you mind your sister forced into a bag over her head as another extreme. You simply have gone on a wild tangent from me saying that Afghan women USED to wear skirts and miniskirt, pants and wild hairstyles in the 50s to me now saying that I want all women in miniskirts. A big big difference and it's a clear twisting of the truth of what I said, but it's been answered anyway, I can only assume you had nothing else to say so blurted out something you've been told to parrot out when you don't know what to say. ..

Simple question would you want you wife,mother or sister in a mini skirt or burqa,if that was the only choice?
You pick out a tiny segment of afgan woman and are trying to make it out if they are all the same.
Your the one holding up wearing skirts as some sort of symbol of freedom.

:The women in miniskirts were not restricted to Kabul. They were from most of the major cities in Afghanistan. You don't seem to get what I've repeated to you often now. It was a class thing, not a locale one. Dress codes tended to be more conservative amongst the rural poorer classes, the richer tended to not wear chadors etc. Burkhas in the strict sense of the name in fact were hardly ever used before the Taliban. Women in Afghanistan were already voting before the Swiss, yet you claim it was an ultra orthodox society. Even the hippies would laugh at most of your insinuations that Taliban Afghanistan dress codes were the norms before the Soviet invasion - rural women might have worn chadors and the like, but in no way was this country-wide, and for sure Burkhas never were - neither were beards either.

The majority of woman in afghanistan are poor meaning the majority do purdha,if that is covering there face or wearing a burkha.
Your point about the full body covering burkha is correct , my mates grandma who is her 80's said that the majority of woman in afghanistan wore chadors country-wide and observed purdha but she did say burkhas where about when she was young but not a lot of woman wore them only the mullahs wifes.

 

[dabong1]

That is not what you have been saying all along. Following are the posts we exchanged:



I was arguing in favor of action against the terrorists in Waziristan, and you seem to be saying that you would support action against the terrorists "If the president was elected". What does that mean then? That you do not support any action against the terrorists because, in your opinion, the President is not elected? So then how can you say that you did not argue in favor of inaction against criminal elements, when you clearly did just that in your post above.

And what about your post that "he has no authority to ask others to follow the law if he has not himself....". Are you not suggesting that because, in your opinion, Musharraf was not elected, that he should not "punish people who have broken the law"? .

And what?.......Wher do i say do not punish these people or let them go free?
If you read carefully i said mushy has no authority to take action against these people.

I have only defended the actions he has taken against the extremists in LM, and argued in favor of stronger military action in the tribal areas, if the terrorists do not back down. I would have argued in favor of such actions regardless of which government was in charge
I will argue in favor of privatization, even the PSM. I would argue in favor of complete regulation and auditing of the madrassahs; I would argue in favor of repealing the "blasphemy laws", "hudood laws" etc. Currently Musharraf has at least advocated taking action on those issues which is why I support him. If another party comes into power and does the same, I'll support that party. I am supporting the actions he is taking, and arguing in favor of those actions, NOT in favor of Musharraf. .

One dictator brings the rules in and another finishes them.

As I explained above, I am not arguing in favor of Musharraf, but the actions the Govt. is taking. I was criticizing Musharraf the entire six months he let the LM bradran get away with committing crimes and terrorizing people. As far as the MQM is concerned, if there was concrete proof that they killed those people, then by all means go after them. So far I have not heard MQM leaders bragging about the crimes they committed, like the LM bradran did for six months (captured in various interviews), and like the Tribal Taliban have done by issuing statements claiming responsibility for the suicide bombings. The Karachi incident was never an open and shut case, as far as identifying the guilty party was concerned, like these cases are. .

Plenty of pics of the karachi killings but no arrests.

Regardless, it is a flawed argument to suggest that just because the government did not "solve" one crime, that they should not do so in a another case. One out of two crimes solved, criminals punished, is better than none out of two..

No mate your arguments flawed the govt let one party get away with with it becauce it supports them.

Well at least you are admitting that the LM bradran were similar to Saddam in that they were criminals, murderers and terrorists. As far as the conditions are concerned, did the "conditions" allow them to become a haven for drugs, illegal arms, terrorists and criminals? ..

Yes right infront of the military/ISI buildings..and they knew nothing

Yeah, what "mature", "intelligent" leadership the Taliban had. They were not getting the money they were begging for, so they decided to blow up the statues of some other faith. Yeah thats very "Islamic" and "tolerant". As far as being "played" by the Americans and "falling into a trap", how did the Americans "trick" them into blowing up the statues? Did they "trick" them into thinking that the Northern Alliance leadership was hiding inside the statues? ..

Just goes to show how much the media has infected your mind,i bet you think jihad is a dirty word now,or that a ghazi is a terrorist.
Does a quran hafiz hold any value in your eyes.
What was afghanistan like before the taliban came in?one example they wiped out poppy production and got recognition from the UN
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2814861.stm

Since I wont be committing terrorist or criminal acts, the "Americans" wont want me. But I would prefer to live in Musharraf's Pakistan any day, over Mullah Omars Afghanistan.

Dont change the question to suit your own anwer,you sound a bit jewish.