Acts of Terrorism in pakistan I

[Bull]

Regarding Turkey we shall have to cautious as the Islamist have returned again in yesterdays election, which is a kind of slap in the face of secular military generals who think themselves as the protector of secularism and Kemalist ideas. If the Islamist get 2/3 majority some time in future then there will be the real test of its stability as Islamist will try to ammend many clauses of the constitution going totally against the Islamic principles.

Military is the protector of secularism in that country. Military has sucessfully intervened previously and managed to put country back in the right track, sucessfully. Unlike the south asian counterparts.

 

[roadrunner]

Yes ,they could have avoided the bloodshed.
What is the point of having talks or where they no talks taking place?

Talks can fail, which is what happened.

Yes is that when a democratic govt is overthrown and then the dictator attacks two provinces in the country that could lead to civil....yes i think i understand what you mean

So you would call a country that was on the verge of defaulting, one that was heading for an invasion of radicals from Afghanistan sooner or later, a stable one? If anything Pakistan has achieved economic stability now, more than at any time previously which is why investment, FDI has increased hundredfold. Pakistan is more stable now than at anytime in its previous history, IF the radicals do not attack Pakistan and hamper its progress.

Expect more bombing then.

This is the attitude of most of the extremists in that region. Which is why Pakistan needs to eliminate them in order to survive as a country. I don't think there's enough space for radicals of this particular strain to co-exist with other Pakistanis in Pakistan (or anywhere else in the world minus perhaps Saudi Arabia).

Every country has rules and laws. Extremists must learn to obey them, not retaliate.

So you have no problem with a mullah coming into power the same way mushy did?

I have no problem with anyone coming to power using whatever method, so long as the economy improves and progress is of paramount importance. If a Mullah comes to power, and focuses Pakistan on the way to science, education and prosperity like Musharaf has done, I would support him. But you will not find one, instead you will find them all wanting to make compulsory religious education, growing beards etc etc, making it impossible for Pakistan to progress. Look at what the MMA have done in NWFP, in one term they have managed to turn the people against them so that it looks like they'll be voting secular next time. Extremism does not allow progression and personal freedoms. Two very important things most people in Pakistan want.

 

[roadrunner]

Military is the protector of secularism in that country. Military has sucessfully intervened previously and managed to put country back in the right track, sucessfully. Unlike the south asian counterparts.

The military in Pakistan (minus Zia's rule) have always been the periods of best growth and development for Pakistan.

 

[dabong1]

We have to be a bit more pragmatic about the realities on the ground dabong sahab. Regardless of what systems and institutions we would like, we have what we have. To argue that Musharraf should do absolutely nothing to combat crime and lawlessness, because he took power in a coup, is ludicrous. You are once again, performing logical contortions, and twisting and turning different issues into one another to somehow get the Mullahs off the hook. ".

First of all bro where did i say do not punish people that have broken the law...?
I am not saying "Musharraf should do absolutely nothing to combat crime and lawlessness, because he took power in a coup" the way in which he is doing things i do not agree with.
Bro it is you that is trying to get mushy's off the hook.

The issue is simple; Are the militants committing crimes? Yes they are; suicide bombings, ambushes on government troops, unlawful restrictions on the residents in their areas etc. Whats the solution? The government, regardless of whether its elected or not, has to try and control this. If you do not like Musharrafs government, try and convince the masses to go to the streets, try and get a peaceful revolution to overthrow him; do what the lawyers movement did to reinstate the Chief justice. But you have no right to say that the Government should do absolutely nothing to reign in lawless elements. Will you tell the widows, orphans and mothers, who lost their husbands, parents and sons in suicide bombings, that Musharraf should do nothing to reign in criminals and terrorists? Will you tell the people of Pakistan that Musharraf should disband the police and let robbers, rapists, dacoits and murderers have their day because, "he has no authority to ask others to follow the law if he has not himself
Your argument is intellectually bankrupt. You know very well that the actions of the militants are criminal, but in order to hide from having to condemn them and discuss how to solve the problem, you keep spinning into other issues. No human can claim to be perfect, and to argue that a government official should only be able to uphold the law if they themselves have never violated any, or are morally and ethically unstained...well you might as well disband every government in the world, including the first four caliphates, because they too were not led by perfect individuals. The idea is absurd.

What is absurd bro is your total conviction in a dictator to sort things out in pakistan,it has never worked in the past and will not work in the future.
What about karachi,who has got arrested there?The MQM killed more people then the Lal masjid mob how come it is no big deal.
No sorry when a mullah kills he is against the state but when a secular facist kills someone its ok.
There is a simple saying in life that mushy should use...practice what you preach.

I am not talking about the LM issue here (The Lal Masjid Issue is already being discussed in its own thread so I wont comment here), but the suicide bombings and attacks occurring in the Tribal areas, that the Tribal Taliban have taken responsibility for. The Tribals don't accept the Pakistani court system, and the Taliban have pretty much rendered the Jirga system of Justice inconsequential, because of their own "shariat courts" and the "trials and punishments" they have been handing out. So at this point there is no option for the State, but to try and "patch" things up through what little of the Jirga system remains, and back up those negotiations with a show of force, and finally utilize force to neutralize the criminals if the talks fail. What options do you have?".

Yeah of course there is no connection between lal masjid and the recent bombings,like theres no connection betwee the iraq war and the london bombings
Go find out the conditions the tribals set to the pak govt before joining pakistan.

They very well may have, though I believe that keeping in mind the conservative mindset of the people in the NWFP, the election of the MMA was very likely "free and fair". I am also not calling the MMA "unelcted Mullah thugs"; they were "elected", in some fashion. The "Mullah thugs" are the LM bradran, the Mullahs who go on violent "morality and vice" campaigns without being a part of any state institution, and ofcourse our "Tribal Taliban". ".

Was it not the same MMA that abstained in the vote that allowed mushy to come in power with a guise of being democratic elected?
The mullah's and the army are one thing...

The demolition of "Buddhist Statues",".

Only after the UN was willing to give millions to restore the statues but nothing towards the taliban run orphanges.
I did not agree with the destruction but the taliban where "played" by the american and fell into the trap.
Yvonne Ridley the Sunday Express reporter was captured during the afghan war,she herself says that she was set up by british/US intelligence services to look like a spy.Once she had been killed this would have been another reason to attack these "barbarian" "savages that live in caves"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4929046509315492036
Please do watch it,the reporter converted to islam after meeting the taliban.

allowing Al Qaeda "safe haven", despite being presented evidence, that convinced almost every other country that saw it, that Osama was responsible.".

The reason for helping osama.....Honour and Loyalty,the guy was a millionaire but went to fight in afghanistan.
I would any day of the week take mullah omar as my freind over mushy.
Please do tell us what the evidence was "that convinced almost every other country".
Just a few questions about 9/11
1 Where are the flight recorders/Black Boxes
2Which hijacker's passport was found in the WTC rubble? Who found it and what time?
3Anthrax...what happened

Not allowing women to get an education..

Wrong bro,he said there would be no mixed education he never said woman can not get educated.

Punishing men for shaving beards and women for not wearing burqas. Wow. What a hero. ".

So nobody has beard's now in afghanistan or wears the burqa?
How many people where forced..the whole population or a small minority.
Mullah omar said when it comes to the burqa and beard they where enforcing there culture and not for religious reasons.

But please feel free to start a thread to enlighten us on why "Mullah Omar" was so "great".

Who would hand you over to the americans if you where wanted,mushy or mullah omar

 

[IceCold]

I wouldnt use the term best growth but our economy has boomed in Musharaf regime but then again coz we sold our soles to usa. Our problems doesnt lie with india but uncle sam whom we consider our ally. This country wherever it went destroyed it completely just to gain its own interests see the e.g of iraq. What mass destructive weapons have they found there? And this tailban **** and mullah omer and this usmah dude who are they creation of bloody americans. We have been used many times and left then to suffer still i dont understand why havent we learned our lessisons? As far as pakistanies are concerned aisi ***** koom main na zindagi main nahi dekhi. Behnchod one 1 side military has his hands full of the ******* militants on the other america is on the verge of attacking us, yet we have no unity, unity ithaad were the two words whom Quaid-e-Azam put the basies of pakistan. Qazi sab except to blame the government this moron knows nothing. Lawyers, we will keep on demonstrating until this government is removed, wht the **** is wrong with all the pakistani koom. dont they see whts coming to them. We can only pray. Allah he hami-o-nasar raha is mulaq ka! Ameen

 

[roadrunner]

I wouldnt use the term best growth but our economy has boomed in Musharaf regime but then again coz we sold our soles to usa. Our problems doesnt lie with india but uncle sam whom we consider our ally. This country wherever it went destroyed it completely just to gain its own interests see the e.g of iraq. What mass destructive weapons have they found there? And this tailban **** and mullah omer and this usmah dude who are they creation of bloody americans. We have been used many times and left then to suffer still i dont understand why havent we learned our lessisons? As far as pakistanies are concerned aisi ***** koom main na zindagi main nahi dekhi. Behnchod one 1 side military has his hands full of the ******* militants on the other america is on the verge of attacking us, yet we have no unity, unity ithaad were the two words whom Quaid-e-Azam put the basies of pakistan. Qazi sab except to blame the government this moron knows nothing. Lawyers, we will keep on demonstrating until this government is removed, wht the **** is wrong with all the pakistani koom. dont they see whts coming to them. We can only pray. Allah he hami-o-nasar raha is mulaq ka! Ameen

Dude, look around you. Pakistan isn't cozying up to the Americans anymore. China is the trusted ally, America is just a weak ally. It's better to have the US as an ally than as an enemy. Give the military a bit of credit for not being completely stupid.

 

[IceCold]

Dude, look around you. Pakistan isn't cozying up to the Americans anymore. China is the trusted ally, America is just a weak ally. It's better to have the US as an ally than as an enemy. Give the military a bit of credit for not being completely stupid.

well i agree for the 1st line and then see americans are ready to intervene. This you call an ally who is willing to put aside the soverignity of a state. I would say its better to have us as an enemy then an ally coz atleast then we really know who the true enemies really are and not live in fools paradise of us as an ally.

 

[dabong1]

Dear Dabong1,

Would like your views on the below posted by AM. Also once Pakistan (if it ever) becomes a sharia state would you allow elections and who would have the final authority to determine the type of Sharia to implemented.

Brother without elections there can not be a sharia state, representative government is the most important thing.
To me sharia is a way for everybody to get a house,education,health and a job.
An example i gave before was that the state should make sure every place close's for prayer time but it is up to the people if they want to go and pray or not.
The people to draw the framework for sharia should be scholars,prof,politicians,scientist ect.

The demolition of "Buddhist Statues",.

Only after the UN was willing to give millions to restore the statues but nothing towards the taliban run orphanges.
I did not agree with the destruction but the taliban where "played" by the american and fell into the trap.
Yvonne Ridley the Sunday Express reporter was captured during the afghan war,she herself says that she was set up by british/US intelligence services to look like a spy.Once she had been killed this would have been another reason to attack these "barbarian" "savages that live in caves"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...46509315492036
Please do watch it,the reporter converted to islam after meeting the taliban.

allowing Al Qaeda "safe haven", despite being presented evidence, that convinced almost every other country that saw it, that Osama was responsible. .

The reason for helping osama.....Honour and Loyalty,the guy was a millionaire but went to fight in afghanistan.
I would any day of the week take mullah omar as my freind over mushy.
Please do tell us what the evidence was "that convinced almost every other country".
Just a few questions about 9/11
1 Where are the flight recorders/Black Boxes
2Which hijacker's passport was found in the WTC rubble? Who found it and what time?
3Anthrax...what happened

Not allowing women to get an education. Punishing men for shaving beards and women for not wearing burqas.

Wrong bro,he said there would be no mixed education he never said woman can not get educated.
So nobody has beard's now in afghanistan or wears the burqa?
How many people where forced..the whole population or a small minority.
Mullah omar said when it comes to the burqa and beard they where enforcing there culture and not for religious reasons.

 

[roadrunner]

well i agree for the 1st line and then see americans are ready to intervene. This you call an ally who is willing to put aside the soverignity of a state. I would say its better to have us as an enemy then an ally coz atleast then we really know who the true enemies really are and not live in fools paradise of us as an ally.

Everyone knows. It's an ally of interests. When the interests finshes, the ally status does too. After the Soviet invasion no interests, no ally. Now, I'm not so sure about the common interest but the fundamentalists are a threat to Pakistan so in a way it's a loose ally of interest now.

 

[roadrunner]

So nobody has beard's now in afghanistan or wears the burqa?
How many people where forced..the whole population or a small minority.
Mullah omar said when it comes to the burqa and beard they where enforcing there culture and not for religious reasons.

This shows your ignorance of Afghanistan. Burkha and beard were never part of Afghan culture pre-70s (see below) (its origins have always been Middle Eastern/Persian). They only came about during the Soviet invasion. And you're missing the point, people now have a choice whether to shave or not.

DF: What about the symbols? This burkha? The women that you met in the camp, what was their view of that?
DE: The burkha has some traditions in Afghanistan but for a long time the women have been working towards having it as a choice. The women in the cities did wear it as a choice or often they did not wear it, again as a choice and it had been something that they had been struggling with pretty much since the turn of the century, the old century. The women in the cities were in modern dress. By and large they were wearing mini skirts, pants and had the same kind of weird hairdos that we had in the 1960's and all that stuff.

The burkha is foreign to most of the women from the cities. Their mothers didn't wear it, they didn't wear it, but then now all of a sudden they have to wear it.

http://www.oup.co.uk/oxed/children/thebreadwinner/author/interview/

 

[dabong1]

Talks can fail, which is what happened. .

Answer me a simple question,the Military/ISI buildings are infront of lal masjid and you'r telling me for the last 6 months they failed to notice anything strange going on?
The way the military "failed" in knowing what is going it's doorstep is the same way the talks failed.

So you would call a country that was on the verge of defaulting, one that was heading for an invasion of radicals from Afghanistan sooner or later, a stable one? If anything Pakistan has achieved economic stability now, more than at any time previously which is why investment, FDI has increased hundredfold. Pakistan is more stable now than at anytime in its previous history, IF the radicals do not attack Pakistan and hamper its progress. .

Keep kissing american A$$ and pakistan will remain "stable" just like when the afghan war finished and they slapped us the pressler sanction on us or came during the wars with india.

I have no problem with anyone coming to power using whatever method, so long as the economy improves and progress is of paramount importance. If a Mullah comes to power, and focuses Pakistan on the way to science, education and prosperity like Musharaf has done, I would support him. But you will not find one,.

http://www.minhaj.org/org/index.php?lang=en

instead you will find them all wanting to make compulsory religious education, growing beards etc etc, making it impossible for Pakistan to progress.,.

Yawnnnnn........propaganda .....and the secularist will turn pakistan into athiest

Look at what the MMA have done in NWFP, in one term they have managed to turn the people against them so that it looks like they'll be voting secular next time. .

So the army puts the MMA into power ,who then abstain from voting that allows mushy to become president and you think the NWFP voting these clowns into power.

 

[dabong1]

This shows your ignorance of Afghanistan. Burkha and beard were never part of Afghan culture pre-70s (see below) (its origins have always been Middle Eastern/Persian). They only came about during the Soviet invasion. And you're missing the point, people now have a choice whether to shave or not.

DF: What about the symbols? This burkha? The women that you met in the camp, what was their view of that?
DE: The burkha has some traditions in Afghanistan but for a long time the women have been working towards having it as a choice. The women in the cities did wear it as a choice or often they did not wear it, again as a choice and it had been something that they had been struggling with pretty much since the turn of the century, the old century. The women in the cities were in modern dress. By and large they were wearing mini skirts, pants and had the same kind of weird hairdos that we had in the 1960's and all that stuff.

The burkha is foreign to most of the women from the cities. Their mothers didn't wear it, they didn't wear it, but then now all of a sudden they have to wear it.

http://www.oup.co.uk/oxed/children/thebreadwinner/author/interview/

My god you amaze me with your pathetic attempts to paint the afghans as some sort of liberal minded people,they have always been orthodox.
You give me stupid example of afghan woman during the 60/70s in kabul wearing mini skirts and try to make it out as if it was a norm.
They tried the same thing in iran look what happened.
For the reason you gave above about the mini skirt was one of the many reason that the afghan fought an alien culture and ideal's that where totally against there's.
Bro unless your an afghan or your married to one i am sure i know a lot more afgans then yourself....Have you ever been to afghanistan?

 

[roadrunner]

My god you amaze me with your pathetic attempts to paint the afghans as some sort of liberal minded people,they have always been orthodox.
You give me stupid example of afghan woman during the 60/70s in kabul wearing mini skirts and try to make it out as if it was a norm.
They tried the same thing in iran look what happened.
For the reason you gave above about the mini skirt was one of the many reason that the afghan fought an alien culture and ideal's that where totally against there's.
Bro unless your an afghan or your married to one i am sure i know a lot more afgans then yourself....Have you ever been to afghanistan?

First off, don't claim things you can't prove on the internet. Koorahay sha kuthoosara - you know what this means? It's very basic Pashto. I could claim to be living in Afghanistan, I am 99% sure you have never been to Afghanistan, and do not know the slightest things about Afghan history. I would guess you're one of these slightly radical people who believe they're Pashtun because you believe them to be like you! (I've met many on the internet). If you would like to debate Pashtoon history with me, be my guest, we will open up a new thread and see who knows more.

As for the rest, you are WRONG, and I have proved that you are wrong with a link. Everybody who knows anything about Afghanistan knows that the upper and middle classes of Afghanistan in the 19th century did not wear Burkhas or anything, the Burkhas were restricted to the rural country areas where most of the poverty lay. Most of the women that worked in Afghanistan (and there was a significant percentage of the labour force including university students), did not go to work covered head to toe and speaking behind a veil, they wore no head dress as you might expect, and in fact some wore skirts. This is proveable even with a bit of searching. The burkha is not part of Afghan culture, just something imported from outside. It probably entered from the Persian connections into Afghanistan.

 

[dabong1]

First off, don't claim things you can't prove on the internet. Koorahay sha kuthoosara - you know what this means? It's very basic Pashto..

The only bit my mate from afghanistan understand is koor which is house.
ta pa pushto puagay?

I could claim to be living in Afghanistan, I am 99% sure you have never been to Afghanistan, and do not know the slightest things about Afghan history. I would guess you're one of these slightly radical people who believe they're Pashtun because you believe them to be like you!:..

Your 99% sure i have not been to afghanistan..well unfortunately for you i have..jalalabad when i was a kid.

(I've met many on the internet). If you would like to debate Pashtoon history with me, be my guest, we will open up a new thread and see who knows more. .

You may have met many on the internet but i have worked and lived with afghans/pathaans/tajik and been to there country.
My family home is only a couple of hours drive to peshawar/kyhber pass,so it is really no big deal going to afghanistan/NWFP

(As for the rest, you are WRONG, and I have proved that you are wrong with a link. Everybody who knows anything about Afghanistan knows that the upper and middle classes of Afghanistan in the 19th century did not wear Burkhas or anything, the Burkhas were restricted to the rural country areas where most of the poverty lay.

Most of the women that worked in Afghanistan (and there was a significant percentage of the labour force including university students), did not go to work covered head to toe and speaking behind a veil, they wore no head dress as you might expect, and in fact some wore skirts. This is proveable even with a bit of searching. The burkha is not part of Afghan culture, just something imported from outside. It probably entered from the Persian connections into Afghanistan.

Talk about the majority of the woman not a few hand picked ones from kabul.
Such a liberal guy as yourself would not mind your sister or mother wearing a mini skirt or is that different?
If the woman in a muslim country start to wear mini skirts as some sort of standard of freedom to live to ,then the muslims are doomed..

 

[roadrunner]

The only bit my mate from afghanistan understand is koor which is house.
ta pa pushto puagay?

Well, in fact what I asked you was kind of a trick..But any Pashtun (read here Pakistani Pashtun or Afghan Pashtun) would have known what I said. It's cultural Pashto, you have to go there, use it to know what it means. You clearly haven't been there or spent any considerable time there, probably the first, since I havent been there too much either, yet, these are key phrases which you cannot do without.

Your 99% sure i have not been to afghanistan..well unfortunately for you i have..jalalabad when i was a kid.

Ahhhh, when you were a kid, I guess that's how you come to be such a genius about Pashtun affairs now..you went there when you were a kid. I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that things could change since when you were a kid, that you have your own secluded family house that you're not allowed out of when you're a kid and so on? I guess you were taking notes and surveying the area when you were 7 in order to ascertain the dress code of the average Pashtun woman on the streets all around Jalalabad

You may have met many on the internet but i have worked and lived with afghans/pathaans/tajik and been to there country.
My family home is only a couple of hours drive to peshawar/kyhber pass,so it is really no big deal going to afghanistan/NWFP

I've met many people on the internet that have claimed to work and live with Afghans, Tajiks and so on. Even they've claimed to school them, find them homes, nurture them and finally even breast feed them. Just because you claim this and that you have been to place x or wherever still makes what you say to be weaker than the thousands of articles that were written about life in 50s Afghanistan.

Talk about the majority of the woman not a few hand picked ones from kabul.
Such a liberal guy as yourself would not mind your sister or mother wearing a mini skirt or is that different?
If the woman in a muslim country start to wear mini skirts as some sort of standard of freedom to live to ,then the muslims are doomed..

the typical extremist response is to go from one extreme to the other. Saying would you mind your sister in miniskirts is one extreme, just as me saying would you mind your sister forced into a bag over her head as another extreme. You simply have gone on a wild tangent from me saying that Afghan women USED to wear skirts and miniskirt, pants and wild hairstyles in the 50s to me now saying that I want all women in miniskirts. A big big difference and it's a clear twisting of the truth of what I said, but it's been answered anyway, I can only assume you had nothing else to say so blurted out something you've been told to parrot out when you don't know what to say.

The women in miniskirts were not restricted to Kabul. They were from most of the major cities in Afghanistan. You don't seem to get what I've repeated to you often now. It was a class thing, not a locale one. Dress codes tended to be more conservative amongst the rural poorer classes, the richer tended to not wear chadors etc. Burkhas in the strict sense of the name in fact were hardly ever used before the Taliban. Women in Afghanistan were already voting before the Swiss, yet you claim it was an ultra orthodox society. Even the hippies would laugh at most of your insinuations that Taliban Afghanistan dress codes were the norms before the Soviet invasion - rural women might have worn chadors and the like, but in no way was this country-wide, and for sure Burkhas never were - neither were beards either.