Bull
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Our secularism is safe in our hands and if its endgangered we dont need the army to step out to protect it,
Acts of Terrorism in pakistan I
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Our secularism is safe in our hands and if its endgangered we dont need the army to step out to protect it,
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp?id=26501
Interesting.. I wonder if these people will actually be prosecuted now, or let off like the MMA thugs who attacked women and children at the mixed marathons. If the government is really serious about sending a message that violence, for whatever cause, will not be tolerated, then the actions they have to take are pretty obvious.
niaz
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I came across a very objective article in the Daily News, I am copying here for the benefit of the Hon Members.
Moment of truth for Musharraf
By Asma Pervaiz Khan
Apparently, the Lal Masjid issue has ended with the culmination of Operation Silence and the bizarre drama is over after almost a weeklong operation that ended in wanton bloodshed. But that doesn't mean the threat of Islamic militancy has subsided, for the Lal Masjid episode cannot be forgotten as merely a 'passing moment.' It signifies a mindset, symptomatic of a deep-rooted malaise, of extremism and obscurantism afflicting our society. The entire issue has raised a number of pressing questions as to the role of major actors involved and consequences for the society as a whole. The controversy surrounding the event continues unabated as its reverberations are felt across the length and breadth of the country. The militants seem to have laid siege to the land from Gawadar in the south to Swat in the north, killings hundreds of army men and civilians within a week of the operation. While Bajaur and Waziristan remain on high alert, suicide attacks in Hungu, Hub and Kohat are a premonition, that all is not well in the country.
The daily bomb blasts, sectarian clashes, intra-sect fighting, unchecked militarism, presence of aliens on our soil challenging the writ of the government; are all manifestations of growing religious extremism and a stark reminder of policies pursued in the not too distant past. The government's initial bid to appease the Red Mosque brigade is understandable if seen in the larger context and keeping in mind the history and our overall strategy of appeasement of the religious right; its reluctance in using brutal force against the latter's unrelenting high handedness, on account of the presence of young kids and women holed up inside the mosque was equally appreciable and reasonable. Despite all that there are a few issues such as, the timing of the operation, the number of people killed, the state asserting its writ at the behest of its foreign masters, and the perennial question of madressah reforms that have become the subject of heated debates and about which the state must come out clean and adopt an un-apologetic attitude. The delay under the present circumstances is only providing room to those who stand to draw political mileage out of it.
While earlier the government was castigated for not doing enough to stem the tide of baton yielding, weapons brandishing students of the Lal Masjid; post operation, the government is reviled for using brute force to end the Lal Masjid conundrum. There is gradually a storm of dissenting voices building up; the politicians, the religious scholars and ulema who had initially condemned the manner in which the mosque brigade took the law of the land in their hands, have taken an about turn and are accusing the government of showing recklessness. Most observers are of the view that the government should have taken a firmer stand when the children's library was seized; thereby making the naive assertion that at the initial stage, many precious lives could have been saved. Loss of life is most unfortunate in any event and though the delay in response may have emboldened the cleric duo at the Lal Masjid; it also helped the government to prepare a charge sheet of their unlawful acts, that eventually legitimised the latter's retaliation. There is clearly no need to feel apologetic about the operation but it would only serve to make things less complicated, if the government shows some transparency in issuing the details of those killed together with Abdul Rashid Ghazi.
The unfolding of the Lal Masjid saga in the capital of Pakistan has once again cast a negative light on the already beleaguered lot of madressahs around the country and reinforced the need for urgent madressah reforms. Although, given the nature of their demands, one can safely assert that there could have been multiple ways to impress upon people, the veracity of their message; for clearly, despite being in the news since 2005 on account of some surreptitious actions and some blatantly provocative activities; the Lal Masjid had not yet piqued the ire of the state authorities. But their preposterous antics, totally uncalled for in our religion laid bare the discrepancies between what the maulanas at the Red Mosque espoused to achieve in the name of Islam and what Islam is, in its true spirit. The clerics' ill-conceived, anti-vice campaign did not hold for long but they did jeopardise the lives of hundreds of naive young men, women and innocent children, who had been brainwashed to undertake actions that reflected their spiritual myopia. One wonders, how many more Lal Masjid's are brimming with such faithfuls that would do anything to justify their actions in the light of Quran and Sunnah. The banned TNSM is a case in point that has recuperated itself and is back in action in Malakand, advocating the same agenda of Islamisation as that of Lal Masjid. They are well armed, with finances and people to take any opposition they encounter head on.
Another point of concern is the public perception of actions taken by the government, which are always viewed with scepticism. While 9/11 gave Pakistan yet another chance after the Cold War to secure its footing in the world with new political realities and alignments; the sudden turnaround on our part also created a vacuum and a wedge between the militants and the government, who have for years enjoyed the perfect 'hand in gloves' relationship. Today, each one is trying to reclaim its lost territory and strike at the other. Despite Musharraf's claims that Pakistan is as much a victim of terrorism at the hands of jihadi outfits and his bid to rein in extremists at the expense of his life; there is a general consensus in the country that whatever our government does and whatever assault it plans, be it against Al Qaeda or any other home-grown militant outfit, it is invariably done at the command of its ally America.
This sentiment is particularly strong among the ranks and files of the religious right. Here the government finds it hard to absolve itself of this charge as our chequered past and wavering policies give legitimacy to this assertion. Likewise, on the other end of the spectrum are those who believe that the government's lukewarm manner all along in dealing with the extremists reflects its insincerity. The cache of arms and the weapons found from the Lal Masjid, the presence of militants in close proximity to the sensitive government buildings couldn't have been possible without the state's support. Times have changed and demand that we alter the course and bring transparency in the policies.
Hence, the government needs to set a direction for itself and shun political expediency for the larger good. If it is indeed about asserting the writ of the state, then its selective application will not serve the interest of the government that believes in 'enlightened moderation.' One may question, where the writ of the government was when hundreds of innocent people were being killed on May 12 in Karachi? Why wasn't the CJ stopped in his tracks if indeed he was allegedly asking for favours for his kin and amassing power? The government's inaction and delaying tactics have made matters worse, so much so that now when it tries to rectify issues that have been overlooked over the years; they either backfired or are perceived as politically motivated.
The moment of truth has arrived for Musharraf as once again he is on top. He must decide whether he wants to strengthen the extremists or lead Pakistan on the path to democracy. The political manoeuvrings reminiscent of the 2002 elections must be avoided, because by keeping the democratic and political forces at bay, he will only encourage the jihadi elements inside the country that have taken their positions to guard their interests and are already holding large sections of the population hostage to their whims.
The writer is a staff member. Email: asma_pervaiz ************
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=65637
Moment of truth for Musharraf
By Asma Pervaiz Khan
Apparently, the Lal Masjid issue has ended with the culmination of Operation Silence and the bizarre drama is over after almost a weeklong operation that ended in wanton bloodshed. But that doesn't mean the threat of Islamic militancy has subsided, for the Lal Masjid episode cannot be forgotten as merely a 'passing moment.' It signifies a mindset, symptomatic of a deep-rooted malaise, of extremism and obscurantism afflicting our society. The entire issue has raised a number of pressing questions as to the role of major actors involved and consequences for the society as a whole. The controversy surrounding the event continues unabated as its reverberations are felt across the length and breadth of the country. The militants seem to have laid siege to the land from Gawadar in the south to Swat in the north, killings hundreds of army men and civilians within a week of the operation. While Bajaur and Waziristan remain on high alert, suicide attacks in Hungu, Hub and Kohat are a premonition, that all is not well in the country.
The daily bomb blasts, sectarian clashes, intra-sect fighting, unchecked militarism, presence of aliens on our soil challenging the writ of the government; are all manifestations of growing religious extremism and a stark reminder of policies pursued in the not too distant past. The government's initial bid to appease the Red Mosque brigade is understandable if seen in the larger context and keeping in mind the history and our overall strategy of appeasement of the religious right; its reluctance in using brutal force against the latter's unrelenting high handedness, on account of the presence of young kids and women holed up inside the mosque was equally appreciable and reasonable. Despite all that there are a few issues such as, the timing of the operation, the number of people killed, the state asserting its writ at the behest of its foreign masters, and the perennial question of madressah reforms that have become the subject of heated debates and about which the state must come out clean and adopt an un-apologetic attitude. The delay under the present circumstances is only providing room to those who stand to draw political mileage out of it.
While earlier the government was castigated for not doing enough to stem the tide of baton yielding, weapons brandishing students of the Lal Masjid; post operation, the government is reviled for using brute force to end the Lal Masjid conundrum. There is gradually a storm of dissenting voices building up; the politicians, the religious scholars and ulema who had initially condemned the manner in which the mosque brigade took the law of the land in their hands, have taken an about turn and are accusing the government of showing recklessness. Most observers are of the view that the government should have taken a firmer stand when the children's library was seized; thereby making the naive assertion that at the initial stage, many precious lives could have been saved. Loss of life is most unfortunate in any event and though the delay in response may have emboldened the cleric duo at the Lal Masjid; it also helped the government to prepare a charge sheet of their unlawful acts, that eventually legitimised the latter's retaliation. There is clearly no need to feel apologetic about the operation but it would only serve to make things less complicated, if the government shows some transparency in issuing the details of those killed together with Abdul Rashid Ghazi.
The unfolding of the Lal Masjid saga in the capital of Pakistan has once again cast a negative light on the already beleaguered lot of madressahs around the country and reinforced the need for urgent madressah reforms. Although, given the nature of their demands, one can safely assert that there could have been multiple ways to impress upon people, the veracity of their message; for clearly, despite being in the news since 2005 on account of some surreptitious actions and some blatantly provocative activities; the Lal Masjid had not yet piqued the ire of the state authorities. But their preposterous antics, totally uncalled for in our religion laid bare the discrepancies between what the maulanas at the Red Mosque espoused to achieve in the name of Islam and what Islam is, in its true spirit. The clerics' ill-conceived, anti-vice campaign did not hold for long but they did jeopardise the lives of hundreds of naive young men, women and innocent children, who had been brainwashed to undertake actions that reflected their spiritual myopia. One wonders, how many more Lal Masjid's are brimming with such faithfuls that would do anything to justify their actions in the light of Quran and Sunnah. The banned TNSM is a case in point that has recuperated itself and is back in action in Malakand, advocating the same agenda of Islamisation as that of Lal Masjid. They are well armed, with finances and people to take any opposition they encounter head on.
Another point of concern is the public perception of actions taken by the government, which are always viewed with scepticism. While 9/11 gave Pakistan yet another chance after the Cold War to secure its footing in the world with new political realities and alignments; the sudden turnaround on our part also created a vacuum and a wedge between the militants and the government, who have for years enjoyed the perfect 'hand in gloves' relationship. Today, each one is trying to reclaim its lost territory and strike at the other. Despite Musharraf's claims that Pakistan is as much a victim of terrorism at the hands of jihadi outfits and his bid to rein in extremists at the expense of his life; there is a general consensus in the country that whatever our government does and whatever assault it plans, be it against Al Qaeda or any other home-grown militant outfit, it is invariably done at the command of its ally America.
This sentiment is particularly strong among the ranks and files of the religious right. Here the government finds it hard to absolve itself of this charge as our chequered past and wavering policies give legitimacy to this assertion. Likewise, on the other end of the spectrum are those who believe that the government's lukewarm manner all along in dealing with the extremists reflects its insincerity. The cache of arms and the weapons found from the Lal Masjid, the presence of militants in close proximity to the sensitive government buildings couldn't have been possible without the state's support. Times have changed and demand that we alter the course and bring transparency in the policies.
Hence, the government needs to set a direction for itself and shun political expediency for the larger good. If it is indeed about asserting the writ of the state, then its selective application will not serve the interest of the government that believes in 'enlightened moderation.' One may question, where the writ of the government was when hundreds of innocent people were being killed on May 12 in Karachi? Why wasn't the CJ stopped in his tracks if indeed he was allegedly asking for favours for his kin and amassing power? The government's inaction and delaying tactics have made matters worse, so much so that now when it tries to rectify issues that have been overlooked over the years; they either backfired or are perceived as politically motivated.
The moment of truth has arrived for Musharraf as once again he is on top. He must decide whether he wants to strengthen the extremists or lead Pakistan on the path to democracy. The political manoeuvrings reminiscent of the 2002 elections must be avoided, because by keeping the democratic and political forces at bay, he will only encourage the jihadi elements inside the country that have taken their positions to guard their interests and are already holding large sections of the population hostage to their whims.
The writer is a staff member. Email: asma_pervaiz ************
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=65637
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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Alright, I'll accept that you do want these militants, who are resorting to violence, punished. Am I to assume then that since Musharraf is in charge of Pakistan, you support the "actions" he is taking in order to bring about stability (other than the LM issue over which we disagree), even though you do not support the man himself because you do not believe he is in power legally?
Just like one democratic government could support policies of slavery and segregation and another could finish them. If laws or policies are repressive or unjust, I do not really care who "finishes them off"; as long as they are "finished". Like I said, we have to be pragmatic. Like it or not, Musharraf is in charge, and if he promulgates some good policies, I'm all for it.
You could be right about this. I have not seen the pictures, so if you can provide links to support your claim that they are a damning indictment of the MQM, I'd appreciate it.
However, your comparison of the MQM and LM/Tribal taliban is flawed. In the latter two cases, the parties involved never disavowed violence, or the criminal activity they were conducting, until they were neutralized. Musharraf gave the LM bradran six months to stop doing what they were doing with repeated pleas from all sections of the religious spectrum. They did not listen. In the case of the Tribal Taliban, this is the SECOND time that they have initiated a guerrilla war against the PA, without any major provocation from the Pakistani side this time. The MQM never bragged about the killings, they never started issuing statements claiming "thousands of suicide bombers would attack Pakistan", or that they were going to start a war against the Pakistani army or anything. So not a valid comparison at all.
But once again, it is indeed horrible that, if the MQM was guilty, the government let them get away. Just like I believe it was wrong of them to give the LM bradran six months to commit crimes, and sign peace deals with terrorists in Waziristan. The government should be criticized for that, but it is still flawed to argue that now they should let every other group start killing and terrorizing people. Like I said, one crime solved out of two is better than none out of two.
Yes right infront of the military/ISI buildings..and they knew nothing
We supported these traitors all through the Afghan war and after. Now that they are turning against us and we withdraw our support, of course there is going to be a stage when our connections to them and our tolerance for their activities is exposed, as we change course. I am not sure why you are making this an issue. No one is denying that the ISI had links with these people, and some elements within it may still have links with them, but thats what happens when you have a policy change. Takes some time before all the connections are broken and sympathizers are weeded out.
I'm not sure what you're rambling about here. I was talking about the "justification" you gave for the Taliban blowing up the Bamiyan Buddha's.
Why does it not sound Muslim or Christian or Hindi or Buddhist? Thats a bit racist isn't it, to imply that Jews don't give "straight answers". Plenty of lawyers who belong to the other faiths I am sure. Perhaps you should not ask leading questions that can only have one "rational" answer.
IF I was WANTED (Implying that I have committed a crime), WHO would hand me over to the Americans? Well if I was a CRIMINAL, then ofcourse I would want to go be Mullah Omars best friend. After all, the Taliban are becoming well known for their hospitality towards drug lords and other criminals. So IF I was WANTED (I was a criminal or terrorist) I would prefer Mullah Omar. But providing safe haven to criminals and terrorists is nothing to brag about. Or is it?
dabong1
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All i want is a democratic govt hunting these guys down becauce i think it will succeed,Mushy's actions are motivated by his desire to hold power ,he changes his mind under american pressure that will end up having a negative effect in the long term consequences when dealing with the militants/terrorist.
Under nawaz a team of pak SGS where trained for a mission to nab bin laden but after the coup the plan was scrapped.
I see your logic, but in a democratic/representative govt set up ,the people have a choice to vote for the policies and bear the consequence of its fruits or failure.
In the military set up there is no choice,during the 80's the pakistani people did not make a choice through the ballot box to help the afghanis but where told by zia that this was the best thing for pakistan.
Now its mushy's turn and the war on terror that has become war in tribal areas and probably soon war in NWFP.
Bro no justification was given , just the reason.
Not being racist but the best lawyers are jewish are the not?
My point is that mullah omar asked for proof before he would hand over bin ladin,mushy would not ask for any proof in my opinion,he would just hand you over.
Do not forget the US and the taliban where close friends before the unicol oil deal turned sour.
Keysersoze
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If I had a penny for every "we could have stopped 9/11" claim from a political opponent of Musharraff, Id be a millionaire...
Simple facts are this.....No matter what political persuasion you are if you don't realise that it is a balancing act to prevent the U.S. juggernaut severely damaging Pak then you have no idea about REALPOLITIK.
Since when have any of the elected governments been able to solve anything other than the amount of bribes they could take or opportunities exploit?
Nope sounded like justification to me......did you support the football field executions too? Or the prevention of women learning? Oh btw the Taliban are deep in the poppy trade now.......
I think you will find that that is the text book definition of a racist comment.
Yes I am sure the taliban are arbiters of what is fair and good.....
dabong1
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So you are sayng that nawaaz govt was not training a commando group to nab bin ladin?
Here's your penny worth that has been turned into a pound
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A61219-2001Oct2
I understand the concept of realpolitik,do you understand the concept of bending over and getting fu*ked,thats whats happining.
Paint it in all the fancy words you want but mushy is doing anything to hold onto power.
So the crore commanders are not corrupt in anyway are they?
When was the last time we had the NAB looking into the lifestyles and bank accounts of the military.
At least we can get rid of a corrupt govt unlike a military dictatorship.
Do you know what the reason was for that woman getting executed?...thought not
If she has commited a crime and then has got the death sentance...whats the problem?
But let me guess you think its humane to fry on the electric chair or get injected by a poision that the american govt will not put a dog down with,but its okay to kill a human being with it.
If she had been executed in the prison that probably would have been okay by you,just as long all the gory details are not shown in public incase it stops others from doing the same crime.
Prevention of woman from learning...you really have been brainwashed by the media.If you read the taliban statements they where against mixed education not womans education.
Dead right the taliban are in the poppy trade,why should they not be..its called REALPOLITIK.
.
Bull
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Golden line.
Are you a real taleban supporter or is it your hatred towards mushraff thats pushing you closer to Taliban as they too are anti-mushraff?
Adux
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He is by no means one, and the reason is Musharaf, a sad sight indeed.
dabong what kind of government would you like to see in Pakistan, would you prefer a taliban like regime or one led by corrupt politicians?
There are problems with mushys government, but to be fair thats the same in every nation. In a country like Pakistan you cant get rid of corruption overnight. Well unless you was a real dictator and locked them up in jail or murdered them.
I dont think theres a viable alternative government for Pakistan that would succeed.
There are problems with mushys government, but to be fair thats the same in every nation. In a country like Pakistan you cant get rid of corruption overnight. Well unless you was a real dictator and locked them up in jail or murdered them.
I dont think theres a viable alternative government for Pakistan that would succeed.
Bull
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dabong what kind of government would you like to see in Pakistan, would you prefer a taliban like regime or one led by corrupt politicians?
There are problems with mushys government, but to be fair thats the same in every nation. In a country like Pakistan you cant get rid of corruption overnight. Well unless you was a real dictator and locked them up in jail or murdered them.
I dont think theres a viable alternative government for Pakistan that would succeed.
This is a statement made by lot of Pakistanis. Why has Pakistanis become so pessimistic about their politicians? They have done exactly what other politicians do in other countries. Why so impatient? Military rulers were tried before did it succeed, no? So why shud it succeed now?
dabong1
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If pakistanis want to critisize the taliban then do it from the point that they would not hand over wanted terrorist involved in shia/sunni attacks,or the guy that tried to kill nawaaz and then ran off the afghanistan.
I do not think the taliban are some sort of standard to reach or that they all are the true form of an islamic govt.
The point that gets me is when people keep repeating western media catchphrases,the oppressed woman,they kill civilians ect.
Do i think afganistan was a safer place under the taliban...yes
I do not have a problem with mushy if he stands in proper election and gets voted in then great...he is doing the will of the pakistani people and i have no problem.
But at the moment he is doing what "he" thinks is best and not what "we" think is best.
I do belive that if the taliban had carried on in govt for a period of 10/15 years they would have matured.
I am pro representative govt....if only ahmed shah masood and mullah omar could have reached a peace agreement.
The institutions of democracy need to be established across Pakistan, free education primary and secondary schools. Education should be compulsory for all citizens. Once the masses are educated then full control should be handed over to the Politicians. In the mean time a elected leader would be ok, as long as the Military has the power in the background, like Turkey.
dabong1
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1 military dictatorship
2 taliban like regime
3 corrupt politicians
I will take the corrupt politicians,at least i can vote them out if i do not like them
What like mushy dropped all corruption cases against those who supported his govt and locked up the ones that where against him.
Eeerrrr yes there is ,an islamic welfare state
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