ABP India Summit 2023: Javed Akhtar Saw "No Visible Poverty" in Lahore, Pakistan

[Maula Jatt]

You cannot deny the fact that Punjab was conquered , humiliated and forced to accept islam

like I have said before cope with it- islam is part of a cultrual idnetity
They coudnt do that to Gagentics where they ruled for so long, with proper control down to ditrict, and village levels but did so in Punjab, Kashmmir sindh where they got thier soldiers, genrals, governors, ministers from, many "foreign" muslim kingdoms were punjabi clan leaders , a land where when they were out of line were harassed by local clan raids, where the fights lasted till all the clansmen died
doesnt make sense to me, doesnt sound like the kinda people you tuning em into - Mr. Bihari monkey

by Arabs , Turks , Afghans and Persians tell me one empire from Punjab who ruled over Afghanistan , Arab , Iran or Turkey there is none

Talking as if gagentics went into any of these areas
many time into afghan territoty, defeated the mongols multiple times, Jatt generals campaigned into Persia and took over their cities

Tughalaq and Sayyid Dynasties were Punjabis ???

yes- read up both were founded by Punjabi speaking clan leaders, so was another almost 200 year old dyansty in Gujrat india

The Biggest Empire in History of India was the Maurya Empire of Magadh region (Present day Bihar) with Pataliputra (Present day Patna) as their capital
The circle on Indian national flag (Dharmachakra) and the very National Emblem of India (The Ashoka’s Pillar) represents Maurya Empire of Patna , Bihar
View attachment 918740
View attachment 918741

Bihari junkie has to go all the way back to frickin Mauryans to find an empire while I am listing much more recent examples, not going back to BC's lmao - even here it woudnt be possible without the political mind of Chankaya- where is he from?...

In the mutiny of 1857 Punjab regiment chickened out and sided with Britain that was the reason why 65% of the cadets in British army were from Punjab after 1857

Biharis came with brits to take over the sikhs empire

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

What absolute rubbish! The retarded Pakistanis that do claim Turkic or Arab ancestry know f**k all about history. The only Turkic people in Pakistan are the Hazaras and as far as Arabs are concerned, there are very few actual Arabs in Pakistan. Tell me which European follows a European religion? Does following a non-European religion like Christianity make Europeans Arabs? These people accepted Islam because they liked it, simple as that. I can ask you the very same question. Why do the vast majority of Indians follow Hinduism, a religion that came from the Indus River Valley civilization, not modern-day India? Cultures evolve over time, there's no reason for a culture to remain the way it was once. The land that we now call Punjab gave birth to the Indus River Valley and Gandhara civilization. Way back in the day, Sindh used to be ruled by a Rajput dynasty called the Rai Dynasty and Punjab was ruled by the Sikh Empire not too long ago. I don't understand why you are even talking about empires. Why should each race have its own empire?

Sikh empire was limited to Punjab and some parts of Afghanistan and it didn’t last for a long time
Sikhs failed to protect 65% of the Punjab from Afghan invaders that’s the reason why 65% of Punjab was forced to accept islam.
There are no sikhs in nanakana sahib which happens to be the holiest place for sikhs

 

[Skimming]

like I have said before cope with it- islam is part of a cultrual idnetity
They coudnt do that to Gagentics where they ruled for so long, with proper control down to ditrict, and village levels but did so in Punjab, Kashmmir sindh where they got thier soldiers, genrals, governors, ministers, many "foreign" muslim kingdoms were punjabi clan leaders from, a land where they were harassed by local clan raids, where the fights lasted till all the clansmen died
doesnt make sense to me, doesnt sound like the kinda people you tuning em into - Mr. Bihari monkey

Talking as if gagentics went into any of these areas
Multiple time into afghan territoty, defeated the mongols multiple times, Jatt generals campaigned into Persia and took over their cities

Great Indus civilisation took over Persian cities but is unable to wrest a part of Indus valley from the uncivilized monkeys despite trying for 70 years. Don't give excuse of numbers because you are a great civilisation after all.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

like I have said before cope with it- islam is part of a cultrual idnetity
They coudnt do that to Gagentics where they ruled for so long, with proper control down to ditrict, and village levels but did so in Punjab, Kashmmir sindh where they got thier soldiers, genrals, governors, ministers from, many "foreign" muslim kingdoms were punjabi clan leaders , a land where they were out of line were harassed by local clan raids, where the fights lasted till all the clansmen died
doesnt make sense to me, doesnt sound like the kinda people you tuning em into - Mr. Bihari monkey

Talking as if gagentics went into any of these areas
Multiple time into afghan territoty, defeated the mongols multiple times, Jatt generals campaigned into Persia and took over their cities


Bihari junkie has to go all the way back to frickin Mauryans to find an empire while I am listing much more recent examples, not going back to BC's lmao - even here it woudnt be possible without the political mind of Chankaya- where is he from?...

Mauryans and guptas did rule till Iran and Afghanistan
The very fact that 65% of The Punjab was forced to accept islam proves that your ancestors were conquered and humiliated by Afghans , Turks and Persians

 

[Maula Jatt]

Mauryans and guptas did rule till Iran and Afghanistan

ofcourse all of asia and europe and beyond

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

ofcourse all of asia and europe and beyond

This is the map from wikimedia showing territory controlled by Mauryans

The wife of Chandragupt Maurya (Helena) was Greek she was daughter of Selucus.

 

[Maula Jatt]

This is the map from wikimedia showing territory controlled by Mauryans
View attachment 918744
The wife of Chandragupt Maurya (Helena) was Greek she was daughter of Selucus

ok, whatever dude, its off-topic anyways

 

[Edevelop]

It looks pretty aesthetically pleasing

Within few years this old part of Lahore will dramatically change. The more they restore old homes, the more there will be tourism and economic prosperity.

 

[TheSolution]

Within few years this old part of Lahore will dramatically change. The more they restore old homes, the more there will be tourism and economic prosperity.

I really wish they could open up a national organisation that preserves our historical architecture and monuments, I've heard people damage and ruin them, these things should be kept in perfect condition and preserved as history is like the soul of a nation.

Lahore has a lot to offer in this regard.

 

[KedarT]

Founder of this empire Ghazi Malik was a clan leader of South Punjab according to his own biography tughlaqnama

The origin of Ghazi Malik is contested and although he was born in Punjab, calling him of local origin would be a big stretch. Most sources state that he was a Turkish slave who rose up the ranks.

Sindh was almost always ruled by Sindhi clans or Sindhi speaking people for most of it's history- unlike Gagentics

The first indigenous dynasty of Sindh would be the Rai dynasty followed by the Chach dynasty. The Chach dynasty was overthrown by the invading Arabs. Later, we see the Soomras and Sammas ruling Sindh who although indigenous, were still vassals to the powers in Delhi. They are no different than several independent Hindu kingdoms in Rajputana who at a later point, although ruled themselves but were still vassals to the powers in Delhi. The later dynasties such as the Arghun, Kalhora and Talpur weren't indigenous Sindhis and they too continued remaining vassals.
So your statement is off the mark.

And was last to fall under the British control in 1843 and in 1870s started it's guerilla war, freedom struggle which continued until Sindh joined Pakistan- again unlike Gagentics

It hardly matters when it fell under British control, being on the Western side of the subcontinent it's hardly surprising that it fell under British control very late. Anyway, it was hardly as much an important province for the British as compared to rest of India.
So there's nothing 'unlike Gangetics' about it. Gangetics did the 1857 Uprising as well if you haven't forgotten. Much of the roots of the Indian independence movement were in present day India.

 

[KedarT]

doesnt make sense to me, doesnt sound like the kinda people you tuning em into - Mr. Bihari monkey

Come on @Maula Jatt you are better than this

 

[Maula Jatt]

The origin of Ghazi Malik is contested and although he was born in Punjab, calling him of local origin would be a big stretch. Most sources state that he was a Turkish slave who rose up the ranks.

Dude, I researched it that's why I am saying it, I wouldn't say it just because I felt like it

tughlaqnama his biography written by ameer khusro (he himself a very famous personality of his Time) called him a clan leader who rose up through the ranks and in the beginning of his adult life was a local nobody more than anything - this biography was written when Ghazi Malik was alive btw afaik

So if Ameer khusro is making a claim on Ghazi Malik than it was probably approved by his son (tughlaqnama was written when Ghazi Malik was alive- amir khusro died in 1325)

This is based on tughlaqnama written during Ghazi Maliks reign

- ameer khusro even wrote a famous Punjabi Vaad ballod for him and presented it to him
If he was not a clan leader - why would someone write a poem for him in a folk language like Punjabi - not Persian or Hindi or Urdu - you know what I mean?- this war poem is part of punjabi literary history

A- tughlaq was not his ancestoral name
If he was genuine a turk - he'd use his name not adopt one
"Literary, numismatic and epigraphic evidence makes it clear that Tughluq was the Sultan's personal name, and not an ancestral designation"

B- he was not part of old balban rulling class court- so the turk slave, Jutt lady's child claim also goes out of the window, he hated the mongols so was not a Mongol origin, he was not a turk cause if he was he wouldn't need to adopt a turk name- he'd use his own turk name , he was born in dipalpur or didn't come from foreign lands this is not contested for the most part

Why he adopted a court name probably to appease the establishment of Delhi made up of turks, Persians etc this I don't know but what we know is that tughlaq was not his ancestoral name

C- biggest reason he was supported by khokhars in his rise to power - his coronation ceremony was done by khokhar clan chief, he placed the dastaar or crown on Ghazi Maliks head when they conquered Delhi, his millitary support at the beginning was almost exclusively from clans of Punjab

Tughlaq dynasties coronations ceremonies always took place in Baba farids shrine- he is kinda like a parton saint of Punjab respected by all Punjabis from all faiths, a good chunk of his poetry is in Sikh holy book for example, Hindus had respect for baba Farid

They used "dastaar bandi" as their crown- succession ceremony and it always took place in Baba farids shrine

Why would a turk do that? What is he gaining from this? Nothing, it has to be genuine love for the saint which I highly doubt a non Punjabi, that too a turk or Persian would have for baba Fareed

Come on @Maula Jatt you are better than this

He disrespected me first - deserves it

 

[Maula Jatt]

The origin of Ghazi Malik is contested and although he was born in Punjab, calling him of local origin would be a big stretch. Most sources state that he was a Turkish slave who rose up the ranks.

The first indigenous dynasty of Sindh would be the Rai dynasty followed by the Chach dynasty. The Chach dynasty was overthrown by the invading Arabs. Later, we see the Soomras and Sammas ruling Sindh who although indigenous, were still vassals to the powers in Delhi. They are no different than several independent Hindu kingdoms in Rajputana who at a later point, although ruled themselves but were still vassals to the powers in Delhi. The later dynasties such as the Arghun, Kalhora and Talpur weren't indigenous Sindhis and they too continued remaining vassals.
So your statement is off the mark.

@DESERT FIGHTER would know more about it but more than half of Sindhis have Baloch origins - zardari is literally a Baloch for example no one can dare call him a non Sindhi or foreign

So Baloch origin clans kingdoms would most definitely be considered "Sindhi" they promoted Sindhi language, identity

How the hell can you call talpur dynasty non Sindhi lol?
Hosh Muhammad sheedi famous Sindhi war heroes last words when fighting Brits

Marsun, marsun Sindh na desun - we will rather die than give Sindh to other's

He was fighting for talpurs - according to you they were not Sindhis yet thier battle cry was literally them saying I'd rather die than give up my motherland of Sindh - your definition makes no sense

I don't think you quite understand our region or how interconnected, interlinked we are and were historically

It hardly matters when it fell under British control, being on the Western side of the subcontinent it's hardly surprising that it fell under British control very late. Anyway, it was hardly as much an important province for the British as compared to rest of India.
So there's nothing 'unlike Gangetics' about it. Gangetics did the 1857 Uprising as well if you haven't forgotten. Much of the roots of the Indian independence movement were in present day India.

It fell in 1843 and just couple decades later started it's guerilla war freedom struggle - that's what matters rest if irrelevant

"Indian" independence doesn't matter as Sindhis are Pakistanis and have nothing to do with Indian struggles, Indian struggles are Indian affairs not Sindhi affair- Sindhis were fighting for their independence and later played a pivotal role in Pakistans independence - that's the only thing that's important to me

 

[KedarT]

tughlaqnama his biography written by ameer khusro (he himself a very famous personality of his Time) called him a clan leader who rose up through the ranks and in the beginning of his adult life was a local nobody more than anything - this biography was written when Ghazi Malik was alive btw afaik

So if Ameer khusro is making a claim on Ghazi Malik than it was probably approved by his son (tughlaqnama was written when Ghazi Malik was alive- amir khusro died in 1325)

There are contrasting sources as to the origin of Ghazi Malik. However, majority of the sources states that he was of non-local origin. Tughluq's court poet Badr-i Chach attempted to find a Sassanid genealogy which was also the official position of the Delhi Sultanate. The contemporary Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta states that Tughluq belonged to the Qarauna tribe of Turks. There is another theory that he was the son of a Turkish slave and Jat mother. So it's very difficult to truly understand his origin but it's still very unlikely for him to be a local because the political climate at that time tended to favor the Turks/Persians/Mongols, basically all non-Indians.

This is based on tughlaqnama written during Ghazi Maliks reign

This doesn't say much, any non-Indian too can be the chieftain of a tribe. There's also no clear mention of the tribe's name.

- ameer khusro even wrote a famous Punjabi Vaad ballod for him and presented it to him
If he was not a clan leader - why would someone write a poem for him in a folk language like Punjabi - not Persian or Hindi or Urdu - you know what I mean?- this war poem is part of punjabi literary history

There have been multiple instances ballads for rulers have been written in a language which unintelligible for the ruler. The language of administration under the Tughlaqs was Persian, not Punjabi. Did he promote Punjabi? Nope.

B- he was not part of old balban rulling class court- so the turk slave, Jutt lady's child claim also goes out of the window, he hated the mongols so was not a Mongol origin, he was not a turk cause if he was he wouldn't need to adopt a turk name- he'd use his own turk name , he was born in dipalpur or didn't come from foreign lands this is not contested for the most part

Why he adopted a court name probably to appease the establishment of Delhi made up of turks, Persians etc this I don't know but what we know is that tughlaq was not his ancestoral name

He probably lived in Dipalpur for long enough to love that place. Like the Mughals loved Delhi. In those days, there were no planes using which they could go to their native place at will even though they could be 2nd or 3rd gen migrants.
However, based on this text, it's highly likely he wasn't a Mongol.

Why he adopted a court name probably to appease the establishment of Delhi made up of turks, Persians etc this I don't know but what we know is that tughlaq was not his ancestoral name

C- biggest reason he was supported by khokhars in his rise to power - his coronation ceremony was done by khokhar clan chief, he placed the dastaar or crown on Ghazi Maliks head when they conquered Delhi, his millitary support at the beginning was almost exclusively from clans of Punjab

Many Rajputs too supported different dynasties in Delhi. So it hardly matters from whom he got the support. The different tribes will support the person who might look after their interests, that's it.

Tughlaq dynasties coronations ceremonies always took place in Baba farids shrine- he is kinda like a parton saint of Punjab respected by all Punjabis from all faiths, a good chunk of his poetry is in Sikh holy book for example, Hindus had respect for baba Farid

They used "dastaar bandi" as their crown- succession ceremony and it always took place in Baba farids shrine

Why would a turk do that? What is he gaining from this? Nothing, it has to be genuine love for the saint which I highly doubt a non Punjabi, that too a turk or Persian would have for baba Fareed

Again, a very tenuous argument. Yes, Fariduddin Ganjshakar (Baba Farid) was a Punjabi but he was part of the Chishti Sufi order. His own spiritual mentor of the Chishti order was Qutbuddin Bakhtiar Kaki who was born in Fergana Valley. His spiritual successor was Nizamuddin Auliya who was of Sayyid ancestry.
The earlier Delhi rulers such as Iltutmish too patronized the Sufi order before Baba Farid. So there's nothing special about Tughlaqs patronizing a 'Punjabi' saint because he's actually patronizing the Sufi order which the earlier Delhi rulers too had done.

To sum it up, with the data that we have, it would be a big stretch to assume that Ghazi Malik was a local. There's just no explicit mention anywhere about Ghazi Malik being of local origin. Nor did he want to associate his origin with the local people.

 

[KedarT]

@DESERT FIGHTER would know more about it but more than half of Sindhis have Baloch origins - zardari is literally a Baloch for example no one can dare call him a non Sindhi or foreign

So Baloch origin clans kingdoms would most definitely be considered "Sindhi" they promoted Sindhi language, identity

How the hell can you call talpur dynasty non Sindhi lol?
Hosh Muhammad sheedi famous Sindhi war heroes last words when fighting Brits

Marsun, marsun Sindh na desun - we will rather die than give Sindh to other's

He was fighting for talpurs - according to you they were not Sindhis yet thier battle cry was literally them saying I'd rather die than give up my motherland of Sindh - your definition makes no sense

The Talpur dynasty have Baloch origin, that's a given. Now them adopting Sindhi culture, customs and language is a different thing. They might definitely be Sindhi in their outlook but weren't ethnically Sindhi is what I wanted to say.

It fell in 1843 and just couple decades later started it's guerilla war freedom struggle - that's what matters rest if irrelevant

Please provide good sources for that. Even if they did their revolt, I'm not going to belittle their struggle against the British.
Anyway, I'm not sure whether you have heard of the 1857 Uprising. Or of multiple anti-British insurgencies in India from different regions post 1857.

"Indian" independence doesn't matter as Sindhis are Pakistanis and have nothing to do with Indian struggles, Indian struggles are Indian affairs not Sindhi affair- Sindhis were fighting for their independence and later played a pivotal role in Pakistans independence - that's the only thing that's important to me

Dude, at that time, the whole region was part of the Indian subcontinent and identified with the concept of India. The idea of Pakistan was formulated much later. The advocate of your country belonged to the so called 'Gangetics'. The Indian National Congress party which demanded for freedom had its origin in mainland India. Have you heard about INA? About Subhash Chandra Bose? Bhagat Singh? Chandra Shekhar Azad? Ghadar Movement?